Major Newspaper Dumps George Will over rape claim

[rdean]

Two college students getting drunk and having sex is not rape, its not even assault.

Real rape should be handled by real policemen and real courts, not some university created group that places all the virtue on the woman, and all the blame and responsibility on the man.

At any point when a woman says "No"..it really means "No".

Anything that happens AFTER that point?

Is rape.

And to make it stick as rape you need to convict them in court.

How do you tell the difference between someone who was told no and continued, and some woman who says she said "no" after regretting what happened the next morning?

So we lump together rapist rapists, the ones who use force or drugs, and some guy who started sex with a consenting woman and may not have gotten the concept that she wanted to stop mid coitus? Or as I said above completed the act while both parties were hammered, and then the woman decided she regretted it the next morning?

Republicans think women are all liars and want to be raped so they can lie about it the next day.

What a remarkable claim.

I tend to think it's Republicans who lie.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

At any point when a woman says "No"..it really means "No".

Anything that happens AFTER that point?

Is rape.

And to make it stick as rape you need to convict them in court.

How do you tell the difference between someone who was told no and continued, and some woman who says she said "no" after regretting what happened the next morning?

So we lump together rapist rapists, the ones who use force or drugs, and some guy who started sex with a consenting woman and may not have gotten the concept that she wanted to stop mid coitus? Or as I said above completed the act while both parties were hammered, and then the woman decided she regretted it the next morning?

I'll do it. I'm a woman.

You have a valid point. This is not the first time that campus rape became an issue. This is the second time around the block.

Yes, it needs to be investigated by the authorities and they need to be convicted in a court of law. I agree with this. Due process. There are cases of girls that make false allegations. There are cases of girls that wake up and feel guilty. There are also cases of girls that wake up and are trying to figure out if it was sexual assault or if they were willing participants.

Are there Frat boys or members of the upper crust that think that women exist for their own immediate gratification? Yep. Skip the campus and go the police. The worst thing that can happen is that they say, it isn't that it didn't happen or was not real there just isn't enough evidence to file charges.

The statistics that were used are not in any way valid. We wouldn't use those types of statistics without a yes, but.......

In fact, even when we utilize date from the NCVS we know that it is off due to the possibility of over reporting and under reporting and that isn't even an anonymous online survey with any rewards.

Now, at any time during or before, she says no then that's it. Hands off. The Swarthmore case constitutes rape. It's not relevant that they had been hooking up for 3 months before.

This is where George Will ran into problems:
“a coveted status that confers privileges.”

"And academia’s progressivism has rendered it intellectually defenseless now that progressivism’s achievement, the regulatory state, has decided it is academia’s turn to be broken to government’s saddle."

It's the most lame shit that I have ever read. Frankly, it is these types of phrases that he uses in his columns that destroy his credibility.

Now, if he said or you said.............it was invited because of what she was wearing or she was at a bar (at all) or at a party (at all) then I would raise all kinds of hell. There are men that really think that mere presence gives them free license. They really do exist both on and off campus.

We need to start having really frank discussions of sex, relationships, and hook ups. By we I mean society as a whole.

Have you been to a college campus lately? There are demand that people check their privilege at the door. How the fuck is someone who grew up on a farm in Iowa supposed to check his white privilege? Where did he pick it up? Does the fact that he routinely got bullied for being a farmer that is too stupid to come in out of the rain somehow grant him a privilege that is not granted to a black man who grew up with rich parents and has an automatic ticket to Harvard because his parents both went there?

Maybe you should stop pretending you are smarter than people who actually pay attention.

 

[rightwinger]

Major Newspaper Dumps George Will, Apologizes For 'Offensive' Rape Column | ThinkProgress

Early this month, Washington Post columnist George Will wrote a column claiming that being a rape victim is now a “coveted status” that college women seek out. Will argued that complaints of rape and sexual assualt on college campus were overblown. He also suggested that women claiming to be raped were “delusional.”

Will’s column is syndicated in newspapers across the country by the Washington Post, which bills him as “the most influential writer in America.” The St. Louis Post-Dispatch, which has published Will’s column for a number of years, has had enough. In a message today to readers, the paper announced they were dropping Will from their paper and apologized for running his column on sexual assault:

The change has been under consideration for several months, but a column published June 5, in which Mr. Will suggested that sexual assault victims on college campuses enjoy a privileged status, made the decision easier. The column was offensive and inaccurate; we apologize for publishing it.

Doesn't matter. The right will go right on lying about rape, rapists and the victims of rape. We see the willful ignorance from the right here every day.

Two college students getting drunk and having sex is not rape, its not even assault.

Real rape should be handled by real policemen and real courts, not some university created group that places all the virtue on the woman, and all the blame and responsibility on the man.

Actually, it is

 

[Sallow]

Two college students getting drunk and having sex is not rape, its not even assault.

Real rape should be handled by real policemen and real courts, not some university created group that places all the virtue on the woman, and all the blame and responsibility on the man.

At any point when a woman says "No"..it really means "No".

Anything that happens AFTER that point?

Is rape.

Then take it to the police, not to a kangaroo court where all it takes is a preponderance of the evidence to totally ruin the life of a young man who gets no opportunity to present a defense.

Unless, of course, you don't actually believe in innocent until proven guilty.

Sorry but what?

First off..if a woman is raped? She should go directly to the police so they can collect evidence.

And why would you post some as ridiculous as I don't believe in "innocent until proven guilty".

That patently absurd.

 

[martybegan]

Major Newspaper Dumps George Will, Apologizes For 'Offensive' Rape Column | ThinkProgress

Early this month, Washington Post columnist George Will wrote a column claiming that being a rape victim is now a “coveted status” that college women seek out. Will argued that complaints of rape and sexual assualt on college campus were overblown. He also suggested that women claiming to be raped were “delusional.”

Will’s column is syndicated in newspapers across the country by the Washington Post, which bills him as “the most influential writer in America.” The St. Louis Post-Dispatch, which has published Will’s column for a number of years, has had enough. In a message today to readers, the paper announced they were dropping Will from their paper and apologized for running his column on sexual assault:

The change has been under consideration for several months, but a column published June 5, in which Mr. Will suggested that sexual assault victims on college campuses enjoy a privileged status, made the decision easier. The column was offensive and inaccurate; we apologize for publishing it.

Doesn't matter. The right will go right on lying about rape, rapists and the victims of rape. We see the willful ignorance from the right here every day.

the right liked the days when, for a man to be charged with domestic violence, he had to cause his victim to have three stitiches or more.

ah... for the good old days when women were raped and men pointed at the clothes they were wearing and said they were "asking for it".

This is about college kangaroo courts when it comes to sexual issues, and their bias against males. How does domestic violence come into play?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

At any point when a woman says "No"..it really means "No".

Anything that happens AFTER that point?

Is rape.

Then take it to the police, not to a kangaroo court where all it takes is a preponderance of the evidence to totally ruin the life of a young man who gets no opportunity to present a defense.

Unless, of course, you don't actually believe in innocent until proven guilty.

how does he have "no chance to present a defense"?

So, you are again offering an opinion on something without being aware of the facts. Let me give you an example of how a college routinely handles a sexual assault charge.

One evening in February 2012, Vassar College students Xialou "Peter" Yu and Mary Claire Walker, both members of the school's rowing team, had a few drinks at a team gathering and left together as the party wound down. After a make-out session at a campus nightspot, they went to Yu's dorm room, where, by his account, they had sex that was not only consensual but mainly initiated by Walker, who reassured her inexperienced partner that she knew what to do. At some point, Yu's roommate walked in on them; after he was gone, Yu says, Walker decided she wanted to stop, telling him it was too soon after her breakup with her previous boyfriend. She got dressed and left.
The next day, according to documents in an unusual complaint that Yu filed against Vassar last June, Yu's resident adviser told him some students had seen him and the young woman on their way to the dorm. They had been so concerned by Walker's apparently inebriated state that they called campus security. Alarmed, Yu contacted Walker on Facebook to make sure everything was all right. She replied that she had had a "wonderful time" and that he had done "nothing wrong"-indeed, that she was sorry for having "led [him] on" when she wasn't ready for a relationship. A month later Walker messaged Yu herself, again apologizing for the incident and expressing hope that it would not affect their friendship. There were more exchanges during the next months, with Walker at one point inviting Yu to dinner at her place. (In a response to Yu's complaint in October, attorneys for Vassar acknowledged most of these facts but asserted that Walker had been too intoxicated to consent to sex and had been "in denial," scared, and in shock when she wrote the messages.)
Last February, one year after the encounter, the other shoe dropped: Yu was informed that Walker had filed charges of "nonconsensual sexual contact" against him through the college disciplinary system. Two and a half weeks later, a hearing was held before a panel of three faculty members. Yu was not allowed an attorney; his request to call his roommate and Walker's roommate as witnesses was denied after the campus "gender equity compliance investigator" said that the roommates had emailed him but had "nothing useful" to offer. While the records from the hearing are sealed, Yu claims his attempts to cross-examine his accuser were repeatedly stymied. Many of his questions (including ones about Walker's friendly messages, which she had earlier told the investigator she sent out of "fear") were barred as "irrelevant"; he says that when he was allowed to question Walker, she would start crying and give evasive or nonresponsive answers. Yu was found guilty and summarily expelled from Vassar.

Guilty Until Proven Innocent - Reason.com

I can cite examples of cases like this all day long. You cannot find a single case of me ever making an excuse for rape anywhere on the internet, I have always said that rape is rape. That said, this is not rape. The encounter proceeded consensually, and actually stopped when the woman said no. If you want to try to defend this is an example of rape, and then tell me that the refusal of the review board to hear any evidence contrary to the "official testimony" is the way these cases should be treated, I will argue with you until you end up screaming.

There is zero justification for treating anyone like this.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Major Newspaper Dumps George Will, Apologizes For 'Offensive' Rape Column | ThinkProgress



Doesn't matter. The right will go right on lying about rape, rapists and the victims of rape. We see the willful ignorance from the right here every day.

Two college students getting drunk and having sex is not rape, its not even assault.

Real rape should be handled by real policemen and real courts, not some university created group that places all the virtue on the woman, and all the blame and responsibility on the man.

if a woman can't consent, it's rape.

if she says no... it's rape.... even if she got naked first.

Is it rape if she says no and they stop?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

At any point when a woman says "No"..it really means "No".

Anything that happens AFTER that point?

Is rape.

Then take it to the police, not to a kangaroo court where all it takes is a preponderance of the evidence to totally ruin the life of a young man who gets no opportunity to present a defense.

Unless, of course, you don't actually believe in innocent until proven guilty.

Sorry but what?

First off..if a woman is raped? She should go directly to the police so they can collect evidence.

And why would you post some as ridiculous as I don't believe in "innocent until proven guilty".

That patently absurd.

The thread is about how college campuses are ignoring due process, yet you haven't said one word against that practice. Can you explain how it is absurd to assume that, if you do not condemn kangaroo courts that hold people to the guilty until proven innocent standard, you might be seen as supporting them?

 

[HenryBHough]

"Major"?

Yeah, maybe once upon a time........

 

[SillyWabbit]

Major Newspaper Dumps George Will, Apologizes For 'Offensive' Rape Column | ThinkProgress



Doesn't matter. The right will go right on lying about rape, rapists and the victims of rape. We see the willful ignorance from the right here every day.

Two college students getting drunk and having sex is not rape, its not even assault.

Real rape should be handled by real policemen and real courts, not some university created group that places all the virtue on the woman, and all the blame and responsibility on the man.

if a woman can't consent, it's rape.

if she says no... it's rape.... even if she got naked first.

Not to be looney toons or anything, but, if both parties are wasted can either consent? Are they both committing rape if they bone down? Is it just a matter of genitalia?

 

[martybegan]

Major Newspaper Dumps George Will, Apologizes For 'Offensive' Rape Column | ThinkProgress



Doesn't matter. The right will go right on lying about rape, rapists and the victims of rape. We see the willful ignorance from the right here every day.

Two college students getting drunk and having sex is not rape, its not even assault.

Real rape should be handled by real policemen and real courts, not some university created group that places all the virtue on the woman, and all the blame and responsibility on the man.

if a woman can't consent, it's rape.

if she says no... it's rape.... even if she got naked first.

Being drunk is not being unable to give consent. Being passed out is unable to give consent.

The 2nd standard is completely judgmental if the sex was initially consensual. So you are asking men to be listen distinctly during coitus, or repeatedly ask a woman IS THIS OK IS THIS OK IS THIS OK during penetration from start to finish.

 

[Nosmo King]

Major Newspaper Dumps George Will, Apologizes For 'Offensive' Rape Column | ThinkProgress

Early this month, Washington Post columnist George Will wrote a column claiming that being a rape victim is now a “coveted status” that college women seek out. Will argued that complaints of rape and sexual assualt on college campus were overblown. He also suggested that women claiming to be raped were “delusional.”

Will’s column is syndicated in newspapers across the country by the Washington Post, which bills him as “the most influential writer in America.” The St. Louis Post-Dispatch, which has published Will’s column for a number of years, has had enough. In a message today to readers, the paper announced they were dropping Will from their paper and apologized for running his column on sexual assault:

The change has been under consideration for several months, but a column published June 5, in which Mr. Will suggested that sexual assault victims on college campuses enjoy a privileged status, made the decision easier. The column was offensive and inaccurate; we apologize for publishing it.

Doesn't matter. The right will go right on lying about rape, rapists and the victims of rape. We see the willful ignorance from the right here every day.

the right liked the days when, for a man to be charged with domestic violence, he had to cause his victim to have three stitiches or more.

ah... for the good old days when women were raped and men pointed at the clothes they were wearing and said they were "asking for it".

Perhaps the Right would prefer a burka as a deterrent to rape. Or maybe the Right believes that there is 'legitimate' rape and then there are the rape cases when a woman's body is supposed to 'shut the whole thing down' to prevent pregnancy.

And perhaps one or more posters will try to deny that the Conservatives are waging a war on women.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Major Newspaper Dumps George Will, Apologizes For 'Offensive' Rape Column | ThinkProgress



Doesn't matter. The right will go right on lying about rape, rapists and the victims of rape. We see the willful ignorance from the right here every day.

the right liked the days when, for a man to be charged with domestic violence, he had to cause his victim to have three stitiches or more.

ah... for the good old days when women were raped and men pointed at the clothes they were wearing and said they were "asking for it".

Perhaps the Right would prefer a burka as a deterrent to rape. Or maybe the Right believes that there is 'legitimate' rape and then there are the rape cases when a woman's body is supposed to 'shut the whole thing down' to prevent pregnancy.

And perhaps one or more posters will try to deny that the Conservatives are waging a war on women.

Perhaps we would prefer an honest discussion of the issues, instead of people beating up straw men.

 

[Nosmo King]

the right liked the days when, for a man to be charged with domestic violence, he had to cause his victim to have three stitiches or more.

ah... for the good old days when women were raped and men pointed at the clothes they were wearing and said they were "asking for it".

Perhaps the Right would prefer a burka as a deterrent to rape. Or maybe the Right believes that there is 'legitimate' rape and then there are the rape cases when a woman's body is supposed to 'shut the whole thing down' to prevent pregnancy.

And perhaps one or more posters will try to deny that the Conservatives are waging a war on women.

Perhaps we would prefer an honest discussion of the issues, instead of people beating up straw men.

Then, as a Conservative, bring the honesty. Building a wall of protection around rapists and blaming the victim is patently dishonest.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Perhaps the Right would prefer a burka as a deterrent to rape. Or maybe the Right believes that there is 'legitimate' rape and then there are the rape cases when a woman's body is supposed to 'shut the whole thing down' to prevent pregnancy.

And perhaps one or more posters will try to deny that the Conservatives are waging a war on women.

Perhaps we would prefer an honest discussion of the issues, instead of people beating up straw men.

Then, as a Conservative, bring the honesty. Building a wall of protection around rapists and blaming the victim is patently dishonest.

There you go again, attacking straw men. Feel free to point out a single example of me building a wall of protection around a rapist. When you utterly fail at that you can bring on the honesty, because I am going to treat you with the contempt you deserve until you do.

 

[Disir]

And to make it stick as rape you need to convict them in court.

How do you tell the difference between someone who was told no and continued, and some woman who says she said "no" after regretting what happened the next morning?

So we lump together rapist rapists, the ones who use force or drugs, and some guy who started sex with a consenting woman and may not have gotten the concept that she wanted to stop mid coitus? Or as I said above completed the act while both parties were hammered, and then the woman decided she regretted it the next morning?

I'll do it. I'm a woman.

You have a valid point. This is not the first time that campus rape became an issue. This is the second time around the block.

Yes, it needs to be investigated by the authorities and they need to be convicted in a court of law. I agree with this. Due process. There are cases of girls that make false allegations. There are cases of girls that wake up and feel guilty. There are also cases of girls that wake up and are trying to figure out if it was sexual assault or if they were willing participants.

Are there Frat boys or members of the upper crust that think that women exist for their own immediate gratification? Yep. Skip the campus and go the police. The worst thing that can happen is that they say, it isn't that it didn't happen or was not real there just isn't enough evidence to file charges.

The statistics that were used are not in any way valid. We wouldn't use those types of statistics without a yes, but.......

In fact, even when we utilize date from the NCVS we know that it is off due to the possibility of over reporting and under reporting and that isn't even an anonymous online survey with any rewards.

Now, at any time during or before, she says no then that's it. Hands off. The Swarthmore case constitutes rape. It's not relevant that they had been hooking up for 3 months before.

This is where George Will ran into problems:
“a coveted status that confers privileges.”

"And academia’s progressivism has rendered it intellectually defenseless now that progressivism’s achievement, the regulatory state, has decided it is academia’s turn to be broken to government’s saddle."

It's the most lame shit that I have ever read. Frankly, it is these types of phrases that he uses in his columns that destroy his credibility.

Now, if he said or you said.............it was invited because of what she was wearing or she was at a bar (at all) or at a party (at all) then I would raise all kinds of hell. There are men that really think that mere presence gives them free license. They really do exist both on and off campus.

We need to start having really frank discussions of sex, relationships, and hook ups. By we I mean society as a whole.

Have you been to a college campus lately? There are demand that people check their privilege at the door. How the fuck is someone who grew up on a farm in Iowa supposed to check his white privilege? Where did he pick it up? Does the fact that he routinely got bullied for being a farmer that is too stupid to come in out of the rain somehow grant him a privilege that is not granted to a black man who grew up with rich parents and has an automatic ticket to Harvard because his parents both went there?

Maybe you should stop pretending you are smarter than people who actually pay attention.

Nobody said anything about white privilege. What are you going on about? The specific wording of privilege pertains to wealth and to the alleged victim status. Wording that was used in two different contexts by George Will.

U jelly?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'll do it. I'm a woman.

You have a valid point. This is not the first time that campus rape became an issue. This is the second time around the block.

Yes, it needs to be investigated by the authorities and they need to be convicted in a court of law. I agree with this. Due process. There are cases of girls that make false allegations. There are cases of girls that wake up and feel guilty. There are also cases of girls that wake up and are trying to figure out if it was sexual assault or if they were willing participants.

Are there Frat boys or members of the upper crust that think that women exist for their own immediate gratification? Yep. Skip the campus and go the police. The worst thing that can happen is that they say, it isn't that it didn't happen or was not real there just isn't enough evidence to file charges.

The statistics that were used are not in any way valid. We wouldn't use those types of statistics without a yes, but.......

In fact, even when we utilize date from the NCVS we know that it is off due to the possibility of over reporting and under reporting and that isn't even an anonymous online survey with any rewards.

Now, at any time during or before, she says no then that's it. Hands off. The Swarthmore case constitutes rape. It's not relevant that they had been hooking up for 3 months before.

This is where George Will ran into problems:
“a coveted status that confers privileges.”

"And academia’s progressivism has rendered it intellectually defenseless now that progressivism’s achievement, the regulatory state, has decided it is academia’s turn to be broken to government’s saddle."

It's the most lame shit that I have ever read. Frankly, it is these types of phrases that he uses in his columns that destroy his credibility.

Now, if he said or you said.............it was invited because of what she was wearing or she was at a bar (at all) or at a party (at all) then I would raise all kinds of hell. There are men that really think that mere presence gives them free license. They really do exist both on and off campus.

We need to start having really frank discussions of sex, relationships, and hook ups. By we I mean society as a whole.

Have you been to a college campus lately? There are demand that people check their privilege at the door. How the fuck is someone who grew up on a farm in Iowa supposed to check his white privilege? Where did he pick it up? Does the fact that he routinely got bullied for being a farmer that is too stupid to come in out of the rain somehow grant him a privilege that is not granted to a black man who grew up with rich parents and has an automatic ticket to Harvard because his parents both went there?

Maybe you should stop pretending you are smarter than people who actually pay attention.

Nobody said anything about white privilege. What are you going on about? The specific wording of privilege pertains to wealth and to the alleged victim status. Wording that was used in two different contexts by George Will.

U jelly?

The specific wording is about whites checking their privilege, I can point you to multiple threads on this board that back me up. I haven't been through them, but I would not be surprised to find out that you are participating in them, and arguing against the very thing you are now trying to claim isn't a problem.

The problem you have with George Will is that he is right. I know that offends you, and upsets your victim status, but that is your fucking problem, not mine.

 

[jillian]

Major Newspaper Dumps George Will, Apologizes For 'Offensive' Rape Column | ThinkProgress



Doesn't matter. The right will go right on lying about rape, rapists and the victims of rape. We see the willful ignorance from the right here every day.

the right liked the days when, for a man to be charged with domestic violence, he had to cause his victim to have three stitiches or more.

ah... for the good old days when women were raped and men pointed at the clothes they were wearing and said they were "asking for it".

This is about college kangaroo courts when it comes to sexual issues, and their bias against males. How does domestic violence come into play?

colleges have the right to make disciplinary decisions about their students. they are not jailing anyone.

 

[Disir]

Have you been to a college campus lately? There are demand that people check their privilege at the door. How the fuck is someone who grew up on a farm in Iowa supposed to check his white privilege? Where did he pick it up? Does the fact that he routinely got bullied for being a farmer that is too stupid to come in out of the rain somehow grant him a privilege that is not granted to a black man who grew up with rich parents and has an automatic ticket to Harvard because his parents both went there?

Maybe you should stop pretending you are smarter than people who actually pay attention.

Nobody said anything about white privilege. What are you going on about? The specific wording of privilege pertains to wealth and to the alleged victim status. Wording that was used in two different contexts by George Will.

U jelly?

The specific wording is about whites checking their privilege, I can point you to multiple threads on this board that back me up. I haven't been through them, but I would not be surprised to find out that you are participating in them, and arguing against the very thing you are now trying to claim isn't a problem.

The problem you have with George Will is that he is right. I know that offends you, and upsets your victim status, but that is your fucking problem, not mine.

Colleges and universities are being educated by Washington and are finding the experience excruciating. They are learning that when they say campus victimizations are ubiquitous (“micro-aggressions,” often not discernible to the untutored eye, are everywhere), and that when they make victimhood a coveted status that confers privileges, victims proliferate. And academia’s progressivism has rendered it intellectually defenseless now that progressivism’s achievement, the regulatory state, has decided it is academia’s turn to be broken to government’s saddle.

Consider the supposed campus epidemic of rape, a.k.a. “sexual assault.” Herewith, a Philadelphia magazine report about Swarthmore College, where in 2013 a student “was in her room with a guy with whom she’d been hooking up for three months”:

“They’d now decided — mutually, she thought — just to be friends. When he ended up falling asleep on her bed, she changed into pajamas and climbed in next to him. Soon, he was putting his arm around her and taking off her clothes. ‘I basically said, “No, I don’t want to have sex with you.” And then he said, “OK, that’s fine” and stopped. . . . And then he started again a few minutes later, taking off my panties, taking off his boxers. I just kind of laid there and didn’t do anything — I had already said no. I was just tired and wanted to go to bed. I let him finish. I pulled my panties back on and went to sleep.’”

Six weeks later, the woman reported that she had been raped. Now the Obama administration is riding to the rescue of “sexual assault” victims. It vows to excavate equities from the ambiguities of the hookup culture, this cocktail of hormones, alcohol and the faux sophistication of today’s prolonged adolescence of especially privileged young adults.

George Will: Colleges become the victims of progressivism - The Washington Post

You wanna try that shit again?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

the right liked the days when, for a man to be charged with domestic violence, he had to cause his victim to have three stitiches or more.

ah... for the good old days when women were raped and men pointed at the clothes they were wearing and said they were "asking for it".

This is about college kangaroo courts when it comes to sexual issues, and their bias against males. How does domestic violence come into play?

colleges have the right to make disciplinary decisions about their students. they are not jailing anyone.

So you do believe in guilty until proven innocent, nice to know.