Lets talk about gun control

[Quantum Windbag]

Specifically, I want to address the idea that police are highly trained individuals who can be trusted with guns. To do this I will look specifically at NYPD because I just happen to have the numbers I need to actually make this discussion meaningful.

In order to get hired by NYPD you have to go through a process which involves multiple interviews, a background check, a psych eval, and a character assessment, then you have to take a test.

Requirements to Take the Written Examination

• Applicants must be at least 17 ½ years of age when taking exam.
• Applicant must not have reached their 35th birthday on day of exam.
• Those applicants who are 35 and over and have active United States military service may deduct up to six years from the age requirement.

Requirements to Be Hired:

• Candidates must be at least 21 years of age on or before the day of hire.
• Candidates must be a United States citizen on or before the day of hire.
• On or before the day of hire, candidates must have successfully completed either:
  1. Sixty (60) college credits with a 2.0 G.P.A. from an accredited college or university, or
  2. Two (2) years of full-time, active military service in the United States Armed Forces with an honorable discharge and have a high school's diploma or its equivalent.
• Thirty days following the date of hire, candidates must reside within the five (5) boroughs of New York City and the surrounding counties
• Thirty days following the date of hire, candidates must possess a valid New York State Driver's License
• Candidates must pay a $75.00 fee for fingerprinting as part of the investigation process.
• Candidates must pass a drug/alcohol screening.
• Candidates must pass a character and background investigation.

The following factors are some of those which would be cause for disqualification:

• Any conviction of an offense which is punishable by one or more years imprisonment (felony).
• Any repeated convictions of an offense which indicate a disrespect for the law, a lack of good moral character or disposition towards violence and disorder.
• Discharge from employment, where such discharge indicates poor behavior and/or an inability adjusting to discipline.
• A Dishonorable discharge from the armed forces.
• Persons convicted of a petit larceny.
• Persons convicted of any domestic violence offense.
• Candidates must pass all medical, physical, written psychological and oral psychological examinations.

Exam & Employment Requirements | NYPDRECRUIT.COM

After that, you get to go to school which includes a special course in firearms and tactics. After all of this you are fully qualified to carry a gun in New York, and be exempted from all firearms laws that apply to people who haven't been through that training.

That should, at least, make people safe, unless you happen to be a criminal.

So, just how qualified are the police in NYC to draw a gun?

Officers in Bronx Fire 41 Shots, And an Unarmed Man Is Killed - New York Times

Forty one shots, one dead body. Must be an outlier.

Woman sues NYPD over Empire State shooting - CBS News

Much better, 16 shots, 9 innocent bystanders, and 1 suspect, hit.

Just how good is the NYPD at hitting what it is aiming at? Remember where I said I had numbers? I love these numbers.

People hit by NYPD gunfire: 30

People killed by NYPD gunfire: 16

People shot by the NYPD accidentally (bystanders or accidental discharge): 14

Total rounds fired by NYPD: 331

Total rounds fired during one incident in Washington Heights: 84

Officers shot: 13

Officers killed in shootings: 0

Officers who killed themselves with NYPD guns: 8

Dogs shot by NYPD: 24

Police Shootings by the Numbers, 2012 Edition -- Daily Intelligencer

In 2012 NYPD fired 331 shots, hit 24 dogs, 16 people they were aiming at, 14 people who were in the way or as the result of an accidental discharge of a police weapon, and all this happened while only 1 officer actually violated weapons policy.

(Did that 1 guy shoot all 14 people, or is NYPD policy actually include accidentally shooting the wrong person? Sorry, another topic entirely, this thread is about gun control.)

What I don't get is why people keep telling me that I am safer with the police have all the guns than letting the crazy guy next door, who hasn't actually shot anybody, have a gun.

 

[FA_Q2]

SURPRISE – no one wants to take this on.

I have asked a hundred times on this board for a single piece of hard evidence that gun controls lead to any real reductions in anything positive. I have yet to see a single factual argument put forth.

 

[westwall]

Yes, it is a true fact that most cops can't hit a barn door from the inside of the building. If you're a cop and exhibit a fondness and a knowledge of firearms you are marginalized by the brass.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

SURPRISE – no one wants to take this on.

I have asked a hundred times on this board for a single piece of hard evidence that gun controls lead to any real reductions in anything positive. I have yet to see a single factual argument put forth.

That depends on what is meant by ‘gun control.’

 

[Quantum Windbag]

SURPRISE – no one wants to take this on.

I have asked a hundred times on this board for a single piece of hard evidence that gun controls lead to any real reductions in anything positive. I have yet to see a single factual argument put forth.

That depends on what is meant by ‘gun control.’

Mostly it means not letting non police carry a gun in public because they aren't properly trained. I would love anyone to try to argue that police are better trained than the average gun nut who spends more time at the range every month than most cops do in a lifetime.

 

[Politico]

Which is why no one can take it on. You can't start out by calling gun owners nuts and put it in the clean zone.

 

[Papawx3]

SURPRISE – no one wants to take this on.

I have asked a hundred times on this board for a single piece of hard evidence that gun controls lead to any real reductions in anything positive. I have yet to see a single factual argument put forth.

That depends on what is meant by ‘gun control.’

I've got this one, guys.

My definition of "Gun Control" is simple. It means being able to hit your target.

 

[FA_Q2]

SURPRISE – no one wants to take this on.

I have asked a hundred times on this board for a single piece of hard evidence that gun controls lead to any real reductions in anything positive. I have yet to see a single factual argument put forth.

That depends on what is meant by ‘gun control.’

No it really doesn't clay. You're side refuses to bring facts to the table no matter what you are trying to call gun control. Parsing words is nothing more than deflecting.

If you have a real argument then there would be facts here already. The sad part is that I have done this a thousand times here blowing the standard idiocies out of the water. All the classic examples like Australia, Canada and England prove the exact opposite when the data set is not manipulated into a falsehood. Gun control has been done a thousand times in a thousand locations in a thousand different ways and has not been shown to be effective past what we are already doing.

 

[Chuckt]

What I don't get is why people keep telling me that I am safer with the police have all the guns than letting the crazy guy next door, who hasn't actually shot anybody, have a gun.

You get a lot of police officers from the military and they are trained to be hyper or they are hyper for some reason. This is the wrong mix to put in with civilians who are not hyper.

Last Monday I had to call 911. My wife came home, pulled into the driveway and was hiding behind the car because a neighbor had a gun and was allegedly threatening (called warning) someone else. My wife called me instead of 911 so I called 911. Before I got off the phone, about six or seven squad cars pulled up and they drew their weapons. The neighbor may get his gun back because it is perfectly legal for him to stand on his property and warn people in order to protect his property as long as he is a legally registered gun owner.

We're just stuck in the crossfire.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Which is why no one can take it on. You can't start out by calling gun owners nuts and put it in the clean zone.

I support the rights of gun owners, that makes me a gun nut, even though I started the thread. The rules here do not say I cannot mock other people's positions by using derogatory language joke toward myself. If you laughed at yourself more often it wouldn't bother you as much when others laugh with you.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

What I don't get is why people keep telling me that I am safer with the police have all the guns than letting the crazy guy next door, who hasn't actually shot anybody, have a gun.

You get a lot of police officers from the military and they are trained to be hyper or they are hyper for some reason. This is the wrong mix to put in with civilians who are not hyper.

Last Monday I had to call 911. My wife came home, pulled into the driveway and was hiding behind the car because a neighbor had a gun and was allegedly threatening (called warning) someone else. My wife called me instead of 911 so I called 911. Before I got off the phone, about six or seven squad cars pulled up and they drew their weapons. The neighbor may get his gun back because it is perfectly legal for him to stand on his property and warn people in order to protect his property as long as he is a legally registered gun owner.

We're just stuck in the crossfire.

You should have told your wife to leave. If those cops had opened up on your neighbor and killed her they would still have a job, but you wouldn't have a wife.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

SURPRISE – no one wants to take this on.

I have asked a hundred times on this board for a single piece of hard evidence that gun controls lead to any real reductions in anything positive. I have yet to see a single factual argument put forth.

That depends on what is meant by ‘gun control.’

You are the one that insists no one will use registration to take firearms, that no one is coming for our guns and that restricting magazines to 7 rounds is legal.

 

[Intense]

Specifically, I want to address the idea that police are highly trained individuals who can be trusted with guns. To do this I will look specifically at NYPD because I just happen to have the numbers I need to actually make this discussion meaningful.

In order to get hired by NYPD you have to go through a process which involves multiple interviews, a background check, a psych eval, and a character assessment, then you have to take a test.

Requirements to Take the Written Examination

• Applicants must be at least 17 ½ years of age when taking exam.
• Applicant must not have reached their 35th birthday on day of exam.
• Those applicants who are 35 and over and have active United States military service may deduct up to six years from the age requirement.

Requirements to Be Hired:

• Candidates must be at least 21 years of age on or before the day of hire.
• Candidates must be a United States citizen on or before the day of hire.
• On or before the day of hire, candidates must have successfully completed either:
  1. Sixty (60) college credits with a 2.0 G.P.A. from an accredited college or university, or
  2. Two (2) years of full-time, active military service in the United States Armed Forces with an honorable discharge and have a high school's diploma or its equivalent.
• Thirty days following the date of hire, candidates must reside within the five (5) boroughs of New York City and the surrounding counties
• Thirty days following the date of hire, candidates must possess a valid New York State Driver's License
• Candidates must pay a $75.00 fee for fingerprinting as part of the investigation process.
• Candidates must pass a drug/alcohol screening.
• Candidates must pass a character and background investigation.

The following factors are some of those which would be cause for disqualification:

• Any conviction of an offense which is punishable by one or more years imprisonment (felony).
• Any repeated convictions of an offense which indicate a disrespect for the law, a lack of good moral character or disposition towards violence and disorder.
• Discharge from employment, where such discharge indicates poor behavior and/or an inability adjusting to discipline.
• A Dishonorable discharge from the armed forces.
• Persons convicted of a petit larceny.
• Persons convicted of any domestic violence offense.
• Candidates must pass all medical, physical, written psychological and oral psychological examinations.

Exam & Employment Requirements | NYPDRECRUIT.COM

After that, you get to go to school which includes a special course in firearms and tactics. After all of this you are fully qualified to carry a gun in New York, and be exempted from all firearms laws that apply to people who haven't been through that training.

That should, at least, make people safe, unless you happen to be a criminal.

So, just how qualified are the police in NYC to draw a gun?

Officers in Bronx Fire 41 Shots, And an Unarmed Man Is Killed - New York Times

Forty one shots, one dead body. Must be an outlier.

Woman sues NYPD over Empire State shooting - CBS News

Much better, 16 shots, 9 innocent bystanders, and 1 suspect, hit.

Just how good is the NYPD at hitting what it is aiming at? Remember where I said I had numbers? I love these numbers.

People hit by NYPD gunfire: 30

People killed by NYPD gunfire: 16

People shot by the NYPD accidentally (bystanders or accidental discharge): 14

Total rounds fired by NYPD: 331

Total rounds fired during one incident in Washington Heights: 84

Officers shot: 13

Officers killed in shootings: 0

Officers who killed themselves with NYPD guns: 8

Dogs shot by NYPD: 24

Police Shootings by the Numbers, 2012 Edition -- Daily Intelligencer

In 2012 NYPD fired 331 shots, hit 24 dogs, 16 people they were aiming at, 14 people who were in the way or as the result of an accidental discharge of a police weapon, and all this happened while only 1 officer actually violated weapons policy.

(Did that 1 guy shoot all 14 people, or is NYPD policy actually include accidentally shooting the wrong person? Sorry, another topic entirely, this thread is about gun control.)

What I don't get is why people keep telling me that I am safer with the police have all the guns than letting the crazy guy next door, who hasn't actually shot anybody, have a gun.

No matter where you find yourself there are the good and the bad, Angels and Demon's if you will. No place, no group is exempt or immune. I live in NYC and have known both good and bad cops. I'm a non gun owning lifetime member of the NRA, and support the rights of self defense and the rights to bear arms. What in life is without risk or consequence? When the intent is both keeping the peace and preserving justice, where is the problem?

 

[Chuckt]

What I don't get is why people keep telling me that I am safer with the police have all the guns than letting the crazy guy next door, who hasn't actually shot anybody, have a gun.

You get a lot of police officers from the military and they are trained to be hyper or they are hyper for some reason. This is the wrong mix to put in with civilians who are not hyper.

Last Monday I had to call 911. My wife came home, pulled into the driveway and was hiding behind the car because a neighbor had a gun and was allegedly threatening (called warning) someone else. My wife called me instead of 911 so I called 911. Before I got off the phone, about six or seven squad cars pulled up and they drew their weapons. The neighbor may get his gun back because it is perfectly legal for him to stand on his property and warn people in order to protect his property as long as he is a legally registered gun owner.

We're just stuck in the crossfire.

You should have told your wife to leave. If those cops had opened up on your neighbor and killed her they would still have a job, but you wouldn't have a wife.

I had hung up on her to call police and I was talking to her one the cell phone and was talking to the police on the other phone. It was a distance of probably 75 feet or more. The neighbor was in the opposite end of the street pointing in the direction of our driveway. The police told me to tell her to get back in the car.

 

[LTCArmyRet]

What I don't get is why people keep telling me that I am safer with the police have all the guns than letting the crazy guy next door, who hasn't actually shot anybody, have a gun.

[B]You get a lot of police officers from the military and they are trained to be hyper or they are hyper for some reason.[/B] This is the wrong mix to put in with civilians who are not hyper.

Last Monday I had to call 911. My wife came home, pulled into the driveway and was hiding behind the car because a neighbor had a gun and was allegedly threatening (called warning) someone else. My wife called me instead of 911 so I called 911. Before I got off the phone, about six or seven squad cars pulled up and they drew their weapons. The neighbor may get his gun back because it is perfectly legal for him to stand on his property and warn people in order to protect his property as long as he is a legally registered gun owner.

We're just stuck in the crossfire.

I have to ask this, let me guess, you're not prior military, huh? Quite the opposite, we are trained not to be hyper, we are trained to maintain our composure. Otherwise, you lose your ability to think under pressure and you sure as hell are going to hit any target you are trying to aim at.

 

[Chuckt]

What I don't get is why people keep telling me that I am safer with the police have all the guns than letting the crazy guy next door, who hasn't actually shot anybody, have a gun.

[B]You get a lot of police officers from the military and they are trained to be hyper or they are hyper for some reason.[/B] This is the wrong mix to put in with civilians who are not hyper.

Last Monday I had to call 911. My wife came home, pulled into the driveway and was hiding behind the car because a neighbor had a gun and was allegedly threatening (called warning) someone else. My wife called me instead of 911 so I called 911. Before I got off the phone, about six or seven squad cars pulled up and they drew their weapons. The neighbor may get his gun back because it is perfectly legal for him to stand on his property and warn people in order to protect his property as long as he is a legally registered gun owner.

We're just stuck in the crossfire.

I have to ask this, let me guess, you're not prior military, huh? Quite the opposite, we are trained not to be hyper, we are trained to maintain our composure. Otherwise, you lose your ability to think under pressure and you sure as hell are going to hit any target you are trying to aim at.

I don't think they think. I think they look at people as if they are 51% guilty and 49% innocent. Pure intelligence is always hindsight.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Claiming the military is hyper is nonsense . The Military trains to keep their people under control in stressful situations, you are useless in a fire fight if you can not remain calm and engage your targets.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Specifically, I want to address the idea that police are highly trained individuals who can be trusted with guns. To do this I will look specifically at NYPD because I just happen to have the numbers I need to actually make this discussion meaningful.

In order to get hired by NYPD you have to go through a process which involves multiple interviews, a background check, a psych eval, and a character assessment, then you have to take a test.

Requirements to Take the Written Examination

• Applicants must be at least 17 ½ years of age when taking exam.
• Applicant must not have reached their 35th birthday on day of exam.
• Those applicants who are 35 and over and have active United States military service may deduct up to six years from the age requirement.

Requirements to Be Hired:

• Candidates must be at least 21 years of age on or before the day of hire.
• Candidates must be a United States citizen on or before the day of hire.
• On or before the day of hire, candidates must have successfully completed either:
  1. Sixty (60) college credits with a 2.0 G.P.A. from an accredited college or university, or
  2. Two (2) years of full-time, active military service in the United States Armed Forces with an honorable discharge and have a high school's diploma or its equivalent.
• Thirty days following the date of hire, candidates must reside within the five (5) boroughs of New York City and the surrounding counties
• Thirty days following the date of hire, candidates must possess a valid New York State Driver's License
• Candidates must pay a $75.00 fee for fingerprinting as part of the investigation process.
• Candidates must pass a drug/alcohol screening.
• Candidates must pass a character and background investigation.

The following factors are some of those which would be cause for disqualification:

• Any conviction of an offense which is punishable by one or more years imprisonment (felony).
• Any repeated convictions of an offense which indicate a disrespect for the law, a lack of good moral character or disposition towards violence and disorder.
• Discharge from employment, where such discharge indicates poor behavior and/or an inability adjusting to discipline.
• A Dishonorable discharge from the armed forces.
• Persons convicted of a petit larceny.
• Persons convicted of any domestic violence offense.
• Candidates must pass all medical, physical, written psychological and oral psychological examinations.

Exam & Employment Requirements | NYPDRECRUIT.COM

After that, you get to go to school which includes a special course in firearms and tactics. After all of this you are fully qualified to carry a gun in New York, and be exempted from all firearms laws that apply to people who haven't been through that training.

That should, at least, make people safe, unless you happen to be a criminal.

So, just how qualified are the police in NYC to draw a gun?

Officers in Bronx Fire 41 Shots, And an Unarmed Man Is Killed - New York Times

Forty one shots, one dead body. Must be an outlier.

Woman sues NYPD over Empire State shooting - CBS News

Much better, 16 shots, 9 innocent bystanders, and 1 suspect, hit.

Just how good is the NYPD at hitting what it is aiming at? Remember where I said I had numbers? I love these numbers.

People hit by NYPD gunfire: 30

People killed by NYPD gunfire: 16

People shot by the NYPD accidentally (bystanders or accidental discharge): 14

Total rounds fired by NYPD: 331

Total rounds fired during one incident in Washington Heights: 84

Officers shot: 13

Officers killed in shootings: 0

Officers who killed themselves with NYPD guns: 8

Dogs shot by NYPD: 24

Police Shootings by the Numbers, 2012 Edition -- Daily Intelligencer

In 2012 NYPD fired 331 shots, hit 24 dogs, 16 people they were aiming at, 14 people who were in the way or as the result of an accidental discharge of a police weapon, and all this happened while only 1 officer actually violated weapons policy.

(Did that 1 guy shoot all 14 people, or is NYPD policy actually include accidentally shooting the wrong person? Sorry, another topic entirely, this thread is about gun control.)

What I don't get is why people keep telling me that I am safer with the police have all the guns than letting the crazy guy next door, who hasn't actually shot anybody, have a gun.

No matter where you find yourself there are the good and the bad, Angels and Demon's if you will. No place, no group is exempt or immune. I live in NYC and have known both good and bad cops. I'm a non gun owning lifetime member of the NRA, and support the rights of self defense and the rights to bear arms. What in life is without risk or consequence? When the intent is both keeping the peace and preserving justice, where is the problem?

This isn't about cops as much as it is the argument that cops with guns are better trained, and thus safer, than people who are not cops. Even if that were true I would still argue that the fact that police cannot be everywhere is the best argument for having shall issue requirements for concealed carry permits.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

What I don't get is why people keep telling me that I am safer with the police have all the guns than letting the crazy guy next door, who hasn't actually shot anybody, have a gun.

[B]You get a lot of police officers from the military and they are trained to be hyper or they are hyper for some reason.[/B] This is the wrong mix to put in with civilians who are not hyper.

Last Monday I had to call 911. My wife came home, pulled into the driveway and was hiding behind the car because a neighbor had a gun and was allegedly threatening (called warning) someone else. My wife called me instead of 911 so I called 911. Before I got off the phone, about six or seven squad cars pulled up and they drew their weapons. The neighbor may get his gun back because it is perfectly legal for him to stand on his property and warn people in order to protect his property as long as he is a legally registered gun owner.

We're just stuck in the crossfire.

I have to ask this, let me guess, you're not prior military, huh? Quite the opposite, we are trained not to be hyper, we are trained to maintain our composure. Otherwise, you lose your ability to think under pressure and you sure as hell are going to hit any target you are trying to aim at.

I figured I would let a grunt handle that one, us swabbies aren't trained to shoot at people with little guns.

 

[Chuckt]

Specifically, I want to address the idea that police are highly trained individuals who can be trusted with guns. To do this I will look specifically at NYPD because I just happen to have the numbers I need to actually make this discussion meaningful.

In order to get hired by NYPD you have to go through a process which involves multiple interviews, a background check, a psych eval, and a character assessment, then you have to take a test.

Exam & Employment Requirements | NYPDRECRUIT.COM

After that, you get to go to school which includes a special course in firearms and tactics. After all of this you are fully qualified to carry a gun in New York, and be exempted from all firearms laws that apply to people who haven't been through that training.

That should, at least, make people safe, unless you happen to be a criminal.

So, just how qualified are the police in NYC to draw a gun?

Officers in Bronx Fire 41 Shots, And an Unarmed Man Is Killed - New York Times

Forty one shots, one dead body. Must be an outlier.

Woman sues NYPD over Empire State shooting - CBS News

Much better, 16 shots, 9 innocent bystanders, and 1 suspect, hit.

Just how good is the NYPD at hitting what it is aiming at? Remember where I said I had numbers? I love these numbers.

Police Shootings by the Numbers, 2012 Edition -- Daily Intelligencer

In 2012 NYPD fired 331 shots, hit 24 dogs, 16 people they were aiming at, 14 people who were in the way or as the result of an accidental discharge of a police weapon, and all this happened while only 1 officer actually violated weapons policy.

(Did that 1 guy shoot all 14 people, or is NYPD policy actually include accidentally shooting the wrong person? Sorry, another topic entirely, this thread is about gun control.)

What I don't get is why people keep telling me that I am safer with the police have all the guns than letting the crazy guy next door, who hasn't actually shot anybody, have a gun.

No matter where you find yourself there are the good and the bad, Angels and Demon's if you will. No place, no group is exempt or immune. I live in NYC and have known both good and bad cops. I'm a non gun owning lifetime member of the NRA, and support the rights of self defense and the rights to bear arms. What in life is without risk or consequence? When the intent is both keeping the peace and preserving justice, where is the problem?

This isn't about cops as much as it is the argument that cops with guns are better trained, and thus safer, than people who are not cops. Even if that were true I would still argue that the fact that police cannot be everywhere is the best argument for having shall issue requirements for concealed carry permits.

Better trained? We have people in the military surviving the war and getting killed on these streets. The 911 operator wanted me to look out the window and tell me where the man was the gun was. I think they're crazy.