Let's address the REAL issue.

[PredFan]

I blame the person. Killing like this is a choice. One that requires thought and action. He is to blame, and only him. I don't want to know his name or anything about him.......

Paulie is right though. You simply can't keep these things hidden anymore. Somebody knows who will tweet it or put it in an e-mail or mention it on a message board and it quickly goes viral which forces the media to deal with it too.

But mass murderers have always been known to the general public in the past whether it is the Valeintine's Day massacre or the Mansion family murders or Jack the Ripper or Son of Sam or the Unabomber or any of the well known figures from our past in a time when there was no internet or quick forms of mass communication. Yet these didn't trigger copy cat crimes or the unthinkable horrors of what we saw at Columbine, Aurora, et al and yesterday.

So I have to believe there is another syndrome at work whether it is a breakdown in our value system or drug induced or some other cause. And at the same time, I agree, it is the gunman himself who is to blame.

I have to disagree with part of that. These guys learn from the others. It's evident in the growing sophistication of the attacks. The planning, the multiple weapons and even the body armor.

 

[PredFan]

One more time, and maybe if I use little words and type slowly, you'll get it. This is NOT a thread about arming anybody and is NOT a thread about gun control.

It is a thread about WHY the gunman would murder innocents anywhere, let alone a classroom of five and six year olds. Can you get that? Or is this too difficult a subject?

You seem to be missing the point by a wide margin. There are a LOT of crazy people in the world, PERIOD! And craziness takes all kinds of forms. Sometimes it's drugs and what it does to perception. Or it can be about long-standing personality disorders. Check out DWM-IV sometime. Or it can be about crime and antisocial behavior. Or it could be about the general desperation of people who are having problems and see no other way out. Sometimes that results in suicide. Sometimes it's murder/suicide. Or it can be about people seeking revenge for real or perceived personal or business betrayals. Or it can be garden variety mental illness which can actually be visited upon otherwise normal people. Then there are the people who have delusions of one kind or another (religious beliefs, beliefs about aliens visiting Earth, delusions of grandeur, anything really) and it hasn't interfered with their ability to function in the real world for years...until recently. Hell, I could go on and on.

Then one day, something happens. And when it does, it just so happens that these people have easy access to you know what.

People don't like to talk about it, but Dylan and Klebold (Columbine) just got tired of getting picked on. They were fuckin' pissed, and they decided to take drastic final action in a way that a young immature (and disturbed) person might just do. Has our country done anything truly meaningful to address school bullying in the 13 years since then? How about guns? How about mental illness?

Like I said in another thread, this is just going to keep on happening until our country gets serious about addressing the problem(S), and I have seen absolutely no evidence that our country is going to address the problem. People will continue to protect the status quo. And yes, that truly does sound as crazy as the events that keep unfolding.

Still, the thread is not about HOW they do it or whether gun control or policy of any kind can address it. That is being debated elsewhere.

This thread deals with the WHY, not the how.

Just stop responding. He's not going to give up a chance to push his agenda.

 

[Foxfyre]

I blame the person. Killing like this is a choice. One that requires thought and action. He is to blame, and only him. I don't want to know his name or anything about him.......

I do blame the person for sure but why? It seems to me we can no longer just throw up our hands and say "who knows".

The real issue is whether we can recognize it and is there anything we can do to avert it. Another active thread is discussing ways to better defend against it. But for those of us who want to return to a time when we didn't have to take such extreme precautions in order to be or feel safe, we agree with you. It is time to figure out the why. And when we know that, then we have a better shot at again making it an uncommon thing.

 

[Paulie]

Report the story but don't show the face or make the name public.

It's too late for that these days. The entire media could avoid running a single story and it could still go viral on the internet within hours.

I wouldn't expect to keep the killer totally anonymous but I think it would go a long way to take the allure away from the deed.

Shit...these days getting a million web page views is just as glamorous as being on the front page of the paper or the lead story on 60 minutes.

 

[Mustang]

You seem to be missing the point by a wide margin. There are a LOT of crazy people in the world, PERIOD! And craziness takes all kinds of forms. Sometimes it's drugs and what it does to perception. Or it can be about long-standing personality disorders. Check out DWM-IV sometime. Or it can be about crime and antisocial behavior. Or it could be about the general desperation of people who are having problems and see no other way out. Sometimes that results in suicide. Sometimes it's murder/suicide. Or it can be about people seeking revenge for real or perceived personal or business betrayals. Or it can be garden variety mental illness which can actually be visited upon otherwise normal people. Then there are the people who have delusions of one kind or another (religious beliefs, beliefs about aliens visiting Earth, delusions of grandeur, anything really) and it hasn't interfered with their ability to function in the real world for years...until recently. Hell, I could go on and on.

Then one day, something happens. And when it does, it just so happens that these people have easy access to you know what.

People don't like to talk about it, but Dylan and Klebold (Columbine) just got tired of getting picked on. They were fuckin' pissed, and they decided to take drastic final action in a way that a young immature (and disturbed) person might just do. Has our country done anything truly meaningful to address school bullying in the 13 years since then? How about guns? How about mental illness?

Like I said in another thread, this is just going to keep on happening until our country gets serious about addressing the problem(S), and I have seen absolutely no evidence that our country is going to address the problem. People will continue to protect the status quo. And yes, that truly does sound as crazy as the events that keep unfolding.

Still, the thread is not about HOW they do it or whether gun control or policy of any kind can address it. That is being debated elsewhere.

This thread deals with the WHY, not the how.

Just stop responding. He's not going to give up a chance to push his agenda.

I don't have an agenda. I don't represent an organization. I'm not collecting money to either do something or not do something. My income is not tied to any particular action or preventing any particular action. I would just like to see our country get serious about addressing problems. This is one among many. But we're not doing it because people WITH agendas prevent the country from finding and implementing solutions to problems.

The truth is that there isn't any reason in the world why gun rights can't coexist right along side of sensible, reasonable gun control. But to certain groups, ANY kind of gun control is marketed to their members in fundraising letters as the end of the 2nd Amendment, or a surrender to the UN, or capitulation to criminals, or any equally nonsensical AND crazy notion simply because it keeps the donations pouring in for little other reason than to assure that the status quo is maintained just like I said. And our chickenshit representative don't really give a damn as long as they're sure that they can keep getting reelected to office, and they're pretty sure that those campaign contributions are their ticket to keep their cushy jobs on their way to their cushy retirements.

 

[Darkwind]

The real issue is; Why do these shootings take place?

Possible reasons:

1. Our society in general.
2. Our culture of violence.
3. Our culture of entitlement.
4. Drugging kids.
5. Drugging adults.
6. The media.
7. Mishandling of the mentally ill.
8. Disenfranchizement.


Where are these lunatics coming from? How many more are out there?

You forgot the entitlement mentality.

People are so conditioned to believe they are entitled to whatever they wish, that they become extremely violent when they are denied their wishes.

Just look at the Unions. Deny them ANYTHING they wish, and they start attacking people and their children.

The images of the entitlement mentality are all around us, yet we ignore that in favor of empowering a corrupt government and following self-centered agendas.

There was a time when people were taught to be patient and work for the things they desired.

Now, if I can't get My way, I'm going to go shoot up a bunch of kids in a school.

No, it's there. It's number 3.

Oops....That is what I get for skimming.

 

[Dick Tuck]

The real issue is; Why do these shootings take place?

Possible reasons:

1. Our society in general.
2. Our culture of violence.
3. Our culture of entitlement.
4. Drugging kids.
5. Drugging adults.
6. The media.
7. Mishandling of the mentally ill.
8. Disenfranchizement.


Where are these lunatics coming from? How many more are out there?

You forgot the entitlement mentality.

People are so conditioned to believe they are entitled to whatever they wish, that they become extremely violent when they are denied their wishes.

Just look at the Unions. Deny them ANYTHING they wish, and they start attacking people and their children.

The images of the entitlement mentality are all around us, yet we ignore that in favor of empowering a corrupt government and following self-centered agendas.

There was a time when people were taught to be patient and work for the things they desired.

Now, if I can't get My way, I'm going to go shoot up a bunch of kids in a school.

No, it's there. It's number 3.

Yet, these types of incidents occur at a much lower rate in Western Europe and Japan.

 

[Darkwind]

Still, the thread is not about HOW they do it or whether gun control or policy of any kind can address it. That is being debated elsewhere.

This thread deals with the WHY, not the how.

Just stop responding. He's not going to give up a chance to push his agenda.

I don't have an agenda. I don't represent an organization. I'm not collecting money to either do something or not do something. My income is not tied to any particular action or preventing any particular action. I would just like to see our country get serious about addressing problems. This is one among many. But we're not doing it because people WITH agendas prevent the country from finding and implementing solutions to problems.

The truth is that there isn't any reason in the world why gun rights can't coexist right along side of sensible, reasonable gun control. But to certain groups, ANY kind of gun control is marketed to their members in fundraising letters as the end of the 2nd Amendment, or a surrender to the UN, or capitulation to criminals, or any equally nonsensical AND crazy notion simply because it keeps the donations pouring in for little other reason than to assure that the status quo is maintained just like I said. And our chickenshit representative don't really give a damn as long as they're sure that they can keep getting reelected to office, and they're pretty sure that those campaign contributions are their ticket to keep their cushy jobs on their way to their cushy retirements.

Do you know why it is marketed (And I've never seen any marketing the likes you describe, but for the sake of argument....) to people who believe in the 2nd Amendment this way?

It is because there is a long pattern of behavior and a solid track record of the governmentists who say that we don't want your rights, just reasonable compromise. Ten years later, the right is gone.

There is no compromise with the idea of fundamental rights. They will not be infringed upon. That option is completely off the table.

Now, if you wish to address the social rot that has taken hold of our country that leads people to think that taking a gun to a room full of children is somehow a good solution to their personal problems, I'm all for that discussion.

But I'll reiterate.

Guns are off the table.

 

[Darkwind]

You forgot the entitlement mentality.

People are so conditioned to believe they are entitled to whatever they wish, that they become extremely violent when they are denied their wishes.

Just look at the Unions. Deny them ANYTHING they wish, and they start attacking people and their children.

The images of the entitlement mentality are all around us, yet we ignore that in favor of empowering a corrupt government and following self-centered agendas.

There was a time when people were taught to be patient and work for the things they desired.

Now, if I can't get My way, I'm going to go shoot up a bunch of kids in a school.

No, it's there. It's number 3.

Yet, these types of incidents occur at a much lower rate in Western Europe and Japan.

I doubt that.

Add up the number of guns that exist in this country, divide that number of deaths by gun (not defensive gun deaths, those are legitimate) and you will discover that there is no crisis here to solve. You'll also find that the number of deaths per gun in Europe is higher.

 

[Zander]

Mass Murder using guns is flat over the last twenty years in this country. No trend.

Colorado shootings add chapter to long, unpredictable story of U.S. mass murder - The Washington Post
The statistics on mass murder suggest it is a phenomenon that does not track with other types of violent crime, such as street violence. It does not seem to be affected by the economy or by law enforcement strategies. The mass murderer has become almost a stock figure in American culture, someone bent on overkill — and, so often, seemingly coming out of nowhere.

The United States experienced 645 mass-murder events — killings with at least four victims — between 1976 and 2010, according to Northeastern University criminologist James Alan Fox. When graphed, these incidents show no obvious trend. The numbers go up and down and up again. The total body count: 2,949

.

This is a tragedy, but it is not a pandemic. It's a political opportunity for Authoritarians to try and "exploit" this tragedy and take away our freedoms.

 

[CrazedScotsman]

The real issue is; Why do these shootings take place?

Possible reasons:

1. Our society in general.
2. Our culture of violence.
3. Our culture of entitlement.
4. Drugging kids.
5. Drugging adults.
6. The media.
7. Mishandling of the mentally ill.
8. Disenfranchizement.


Where are these lunatics coming from? How many more are out there?

Large capacity magazines have nothing to do with the extent of the mortality and morbidity of these incidents? You're a loon.

The weapon of choice or ability has nothing to do with the impulse to commit these horrible and unconscionable crimes.

So one more time:

To assume that it is necessary to have firearms of any type in order to commit mass murder is ludicrous. It can be done sabotaging mass transportion, with poisonous mushrooms or other toxins introduced into the food or water supply, with arson, flammable fuels, explosive gasses, nerve agents, C4, dynamite, molotov cocktails, or in the case of a recent incident in China, with a knife. etc. etc. etc.

So in this thread, let's respect the focus of the OP, set aside the 'how' for now, and focus on the 'why'.

It isn't as sexy a subject as the same old platitudes about gun control, but it is interesting to a lot of us.

How many guns did Tim McVey bring with him?

How many guns did those 11 terrorist use to hijack those airplanes?

Seriously, this whole debate about guns being a problem is so unbelievable. It's not about the guns, it's about the people who commit the crime, the murders. I don't know why people are focusing on guns.

 

[Old Rocks]

The real issue is; Why do these shootings take place?

Possible reasons:

1. Our society in general.
2. Our culture of violence.
3. Our culture of entitlement.
4. Drugging kids.
5. Drugging adults.
6. The media.
7. Mishandling of the mentally ill.
8. Disenfranchizement.


Where are these lunatics coming from? How many more are out there?

Anything to avoid the fact that our society is awash in war weopons. That the right wing has been glorifying violence and guns for a couple of decades. Look at the wingnuts here on this board with guns in their avatar.

Get the war guns off the street. Recognize and treat mental illness in our citizens at early stages, irregardless of the ability of the person with the illness to pay for the treatment. The failure to do so has already cost our nation far too much.

 

[Old Rocks]

Large capacity magazines have nothing to do with the extent of the mortality and morbidity of these incidents? You're a loon.

The weapon of choice or ability has nothing to do with the impulse to commit these horrible and unconscionable crimes.

So one more time:

To assume that it is necessary to have firearms of any type in order to commit mass murder is ludicrous. It can be done sabotaging mass transportion, with poisonous mushrooms or other toxins introduced into the food or water supply, with arson, flammable fuels, explosive gasses, nerve agents, C4, dynamite, molotov cocktails, or in the case of a recent incident in China, with a knife. etc. etc. etc.

So in this thread, let's respect the focus of the OP, set aside the 'how' for now, and focus on the 'why'.

It isn't as sexy a subject as the same old platitudes about gun control, but it is interesting to a lot of us.

How many guns did Tim McVey bring with him?

How many guns did those 11 terrorist use to hijack those airplanes?

Seriously, this whole debate about guns being a problem is so unbelievable. It's not about the guns, it's about the people who commit the crime, the murders. I don't know why people are focusing on guns.

Three shooting so far this week. Isn't that enough for you?

 

[Old Rocks]

Mass Murder using guns is flat over the last twenty years in this country. No trend.

Colorado shootings add chapter to long, unpredictable story of U.S. mass murder - The Washington Post
The statistics on mass murder suggest it is a phenomenon that does not track with other types of violent crime, such as street violence. It does not seem to be affected by the economy or by law enforcement strategies. The mass murderer has become almost a stock figure in American culture, someone bent on overkill — and, so often, seemingly coming out of nowhere.

The United States experienced 645 mass-murder events — killings with at least four victims — between 1976 and 2010, according to Northeastern University criminologist James Alan Fox. When graphed, these incidents show no obvious trend. The numbers go up and down and up again. The total body count: 2,949

.

This is a tragedy, but it is not a pandemic. It's a political opportunity for Authoritarians to try and "exploit" this tragedy and take away our freedoms.

Three shooting this week. Not pandemic. You are an idiot.

 

[CrazedScotsman]

The weapon of choice or ability has nothing to do with the impulse to commit these horrible and unconscionable crimes.

So one more time:

To assume that it is necessary to have firearms of any type in order to commit mass murder is ludicrous. It can be done sabotaging mass transportion, with poisonous mushrooms or other toxins introduced into the food or water supply, with arson, flammable fuels, explosive gasses, nerve agents, C4, dynamite, molotov cocktails, or in the case of a recent incident in China, with a knife. etc. etc. etc.

So in this thread, let's respect the focus of the OP, set aside the 'how' for now, and focus on the 'why'.

It isn't as sexy a subject as the same old platitudes about gun control, but it is interesting to a lot of us.

How many guns did Tim McVey bring with him?

How many guns did those 11 terrorist use to hijack those airplanes?

Seriously, this whole debate about guns being a problem is so unbelievable. It's not about the guns, it's about the people who commit the crime, the murders. I don't know why people are focusing on guns.

Three shooting so far this week. Isn't that enough for you?

There's shootings, stabbings, rapes, beatings and so on and so forth every damn day. Are guns to blame for all of that?

Give me a break.

I'm done arguing with ignorance.

 

[blackhawk]

The real issue is; Why do these shootings take place?

Possible reasons:

1. Our society in general.
2. Our culture of violence.
3. Our culture of entitlement.
4. Drugging kids.
5. Drugging adults.
6. The media.
7. Mishandling of the mentally ill.
8. Disenfranchizement.


Where are these lunatics coming from? How many more are out there?

I would agree with all of the above and add Hollywood the way we see violence shown there people get killed you quip off a one liner and move on we see all the shooting and killing in the movies but never any of the aftermath. I have to think that plays some part how big of one who knows.

 

[beagle9]

When in doubt, shoot them before they shoot you.

I know you think you're being funny. You'll forgive me if I don't laugh or take you seriously? Thank you very much.

My response is pretty much in keeping with the nonsensical argument that we would all be safer if we were all walking around armed, just ready for violence to erupt so that we could respond in order to stop it.

So your implying that we would be just eagar for violence to erupt, so that we could hopefully use our weapons and kill people eh ? You might be a sick man do you know that ? Why don't you join the rest of the looney tunes who live in the fantasy world instead of the real world ? I mean that's if you havn't already joined them... You sound like Obama running around apologizing for America having to defend herself, and worse being darn good at it to..

I say this because everytime I read something by you, it is radical and way leftist in thought of....

 

[beagle9]

I blame the person. Killing like this is a choice. One that requires thought and action. He is to blame, and only him. I don't want to know his name or anything about him.......

Don't want to know anything about him eh ? Then go back and bury your head in the sand again...

 

[candycorn]

"Goth and games" have nothing to do with murder. I really get tired of the argument about video games. Before them we all shot each other with play guns face to face during playtime.

Its a stupid argument and it detracts from the real issues these killers exploit

I agree but it's more of an issue of a "violent culture", imo.

You may not agree with those who blame video games, but it's a valid point in this thread. I can't blame video games alone, imo, that's silly.

And Goth? If the last two killers were into the Goth culture, it by no means equates to all Goths are killers.

Same games are played in Europe. This rarely happens there. Easy to get guns and unstable people create this easily solveable syndrome. The first step is admitting there is a problem.

 

[The Professor]

This kid was a "Goth". Spent hours playing shoot em up games. Had mental health issues.

Sure am glad his mom had those guns. Wonder who she thought she should be afraid of? I guess it never entered her mind to be afraid of her deranged son.

Keep all guns from the hands of men less than 30 years of age. Concentrate on keeping those young men from having access to guns.

All the recent mass shooters were young men under 30. Why you think that is?

Can't tell if your kidding or not with this post.

Should we bar men under 30 from serving in the military too?

Well, they can serve in the military but they can't have guns. Joking. Good point.