LEGAL AID FUND OPENED for zimmerman by gun rights groups.

[8537]

Hey guys,lets flipsides,what if,and find out,what if...zimmerman was defending himself?if evidence poibts that way,then what will you all think?i cannot prove it,but a gut instinct tells me this MAY happen.

At the time of the shooting, I'm assuming based on what I've heard that he was defending himself from physical harm.

But he started the chain of events by doing something that he shouldn't have, that's what bugs me about it. He could have played it much differently and averted the entire incident.

There in lies the rub. Had Zimmerman not confronted Martin, there would have been no problem. Once Zimmerman made contact, WHO escalated past the point of no return?
Did Zimmerman grab, push or punch Martin? Or did Martin escalate to physical violence first? How do you assign blame?

Unfortunately, we're only going to hear one side of that story that answers that question.

 

[California Girl]

Hey guys,lets flipsides,what if,and find out,what if...zimmerman was defending himself?if evidence poibts that way,then what will you all think?i cannot prove it,but a gut instinct tells me this MAY happen.

At the time of the shooting, I'm assuming based on what I've heard that he was defending himself from physical harm.

But he started the chain of events by doing something that he shouldn't have, that's what bugs me about it. He could have played it much differently and averted the entire incident.

There in lies the rub. Had Zimmerman not confronted Martin, there would have been no problem. Once Zimmerman made contact, WHO escalated past the point of no return?
Did Zimmerman grab, push or punch Martin? Or did Martin escalate to physical violence first? How do you assign blame?

There is no evidence that Zimmerman confronted Martin. There is evidence that Martin confronted Zimmerman.

 

[Defiant1]

he had a gun!

Yes, we are allowed to carry them here in Florida.

I carry at least one every day.

People who don't like that should stay the hell out of Florida.

Are neighborhood watch members in Florida supposed to carry weapons?

My carry license doesn't say I can't.

 

[bobcollum]

At the time of the shooting, I'm assuming based on what I've heard that he was defending himself from physical harm.

But he started the chain of events by doing something that he shouldn't have, that's what bugs me about it. He could have played it much differently and averted the entire incident.

There in lies the rub. Had Zimmerman not confronted Martin, there would have been no problem. Once Zimmerman made contact, WHO escalated past the point of no return?
Did Zimmerman grab, push or punch Martin? Or did Martin escalate to physical violence first? How do you assign blame?

There is no evidence that Zimmerman confronted Martin. There is evidence that Martin confronted Zimmerman.

Based on what Martin's girlfriend overheard on the phone Martin turned around to question the person following him. As far as I know this wasn't refuted, fill me in if you know otherwise.

 

[LoneLaugher]

At the time of the shooting, I'm assuming based on what I've heard that he was defending himself from physical harm.

But he started the chain of events by doing something that he shouldn't have, that's what bugs me about it. He could have played it much differently and averted the entire incident.

There in lies the rub. Had Zimmerman not confronted Martin, there would have been no problem. Once Zimmerman made contact, WHO escalated past the point of no return?
Did Zimmerman grab, push or punch Martin? Or did Martin escalate to physical violence first? How do you assign blame?

There is no evidence that Zimmerman confronted Martin. There is evidence that Martin confronted Zimmerman.

Please. Link to this evidence.

Thank you.

 

[8537]

At the time of the shooting, I'm assuming based on what I've heard that he was defending himself from physical harm.

But he started the chain of events by doing something that he shouldn't have, that's what bugs me about it. He could have played it much differently and averted the entire incident.

There in lies the rub. Had Zimmerman not confronted Martin, there would have been no problem. Once Zimmerman made contact, WHO escalated past the point of no return?
Did Zimmerman grab, push or punch Martin? Or did Martin escalate to physical violence first? How do you assign blame?

There is no evidence that Zimmerman confronted Martin. There is evidence that Martin confronted Zimmerman.

What evidence ?

 

[Immanuel]

At the time of the shooting, I'm assuming based on what I've heard that he was defending himself from physical harm.

But he started the chain of events by doing something that he shouldn't have, that's what bugs me about it. He could have played it much differently and averted the entire incident.

That bothers me. Why shouldn't a concerned neighbor follow a stranger through the neighborhood keeping an eye on him? I've watched strange people meandering through my neighborhood before and I have kept my eyes on strange cars sitting near school bus stops at pickup/drop off times.

Assuming that Trayvon Martin did nothing wrong and was just passing through, does this make me a criminal too?

Is the reason that Mr. Zimmerman is such a bad guy is that it was because Trayvon was black and that makes it obvious that Zimmerman was profiling?

Immie

There's no law saying a private citizen can't profile.

I agree, but evidently, it seems some people think that you should go back in your own home and let the suspicious character break into your neighbor's house, or grab a kid from the bus stop and you should just mind your own f'ing business.

Whether he remained in his car or got out on foot, he did nothing illegal in following Trayvon. He may have been f'ing stupid but he did nothing illegal. Nor was he required to take the advice of the 911 operator. It was not an order which would be questionable if that would even be legal for a 911 operator to give. It was nothing more than advice.

The problem lies in that one or the other of the two men got aggressive against the other. I fear we will never know for sure which one it was.

Immie

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

It’s likely the NRA is more concerned SYG remains unchanged in Florida rather than the fate of Mr. Zimmerman.

Are neighborhood watch members in Florida supposed to carry weapons?

They’re allowed to carry concealed weapons if licensed to do so by the state; having nothing to do with a ‘neighborhood watch’ per se.

And we have yet another thread demonstrating the principle of innocent until proven guilty is acknowledged only by jurists, and ignored by the general public.

 

[Immanuel]

It seems to me Zimmerman could have stayed in his vehicle and drove to keep an eye on him while he waited for already dispatched police to do their job...interact with crimes in progress or suspicious activity.

If I randomly followed 10 people in the way Zimmerman did in the city I reside in, I would be shocked if at least 5 of them didn't confront me about it. This is why you don't play policeman if you aren't one, unless you have no choice, which he did have.


Thus, I do not see the threat of deadly force against the killer, the Special Prosecutor has more evidence than I, obviously.

Because, unlike some people, he took his civic duty to watch his neighborhood seriously. He was a participating neighborhood watch member. Hindsight is always 20/20.... it's very easy to sit in judgment and say 'he should have....' but the situation is what it is.

Personally, I'm glad we have people who take protecting their community seriously... we don't have enough police to do that.... and it is our responsibility too.

He took it so seriously that he was over-zealous and attempted to intervene with something he had just reported to the police, that ended up being absolutely nothing more than a person on their way home from the store.

Again, this is why we have paid law enforcement. Unless there was a serious reason for him to not wait for the police(ie an imminent threat to someone's safety) he should have waited.

What evidence do you have to support that part in red.

The only one who knew what Trayvon Martin was up to is Trayvon Martin and unfortunately he can't tell us what he was doing.

Immie

 

[Erand7899]

Hey guys,lets flipsides,what if,and find out,what if...zimmerman was defending himself?if evidence poibts that way,then what will you all think?i cannot prove it,but a gut instinct tells me this MAY happen.

At the time of the shooting, I'm assuming based on what I've heard that he was defending himself from physical harm.

But he started the chain of events by doing something that he shouldn't have, that's what bugs me about it. He could have played it much differently and averted the entire incident.

There in lies the rub. Had Zimmerman not confronted Martin, there would have been no problem. Once Zimmerman made contact, WHO escalated past the point of no return?
Did Zimmerman grab, push or punch Martin? Or did Martin escalate to physical violence first? How do you assign blame?

There is no evidence that Zimmerman confronted Martin. According to the only known witness to that meeting, Zimmerman, Martin confronted him, and then sucker punched him. Whether we like it, or not, unless the authorities can find evidence that Zimmerman has lied about the events, they have to accept his word for what happened.

There is little doubt that the situation escalated out of control, and a young man wound up dead, but there is not a suitable legal remedy for every ill in the world. If Martin attacked Zimmerman as he claimed, then Martin was the agressor, and there was no valid reason for that assualt. If Zimmerman reasonably concluded that his life was in danger, then he had the right to use deadly force to protect his life.

 

[bobcollum]

Because, unlike some people, he took his civic duty to watch his neighborhood seriously. He was a participating neighborhood watch member. Hindsight is always 20/20.... it's very easy to sit in judgment and say 'he should have....' but the situation is what it is.

Personally, I'm glad we have people who take protecting their community seriously... we don't have enough police to do that.... and it is our responsibility too.

He took it so seriously that he was over-zealous and attempted to intervene with something he had just reported to the police, that ended up being absolutely nothing more than a person on their way home from the store.

Again, this is why we have paid law enforcement. Unless there was a serious reason for him to not wait for the police(ie an imminent threat to someone's safety) he should have waited.

What evidence do you have to support that part in red.

The only one who knew what Trayvon Martin was up to is Trayvon Martin and unfortunately he can't tell us what he was doing.

Immie

You're correct, it can't be proven, but based on what we do know, that he left watching a basketball game at home to go to a 7-11 to get some candy and a drink, I feel safe in presuming that he was just returning home, at least safer than assuming he was up to no good, since walking slowly seems to be the only reasoning behind the suspicion.

 

[Immanuel]

He took it so seriously that he was over-zealous and attempted to intervene with something he had just reported to the police, that ended up being absolutely nothing more than a person on their way home from the store.

Again, this is why we have paid law enforcement. Unless there was a serious reason for him to not wait for the police(ie an imminent threat to someone's safety) he should have waited.

What evidence do you have to support that part in red.

The only one who knew what Trayvon Martin was up to is Trayvon Martin and unfortunately he can't tell us what he was doing.

Immie

You're correct, it can't be proven, but based on what we do know, that he left watching a basketball game at home to go to a 7-11 to get some candy and a drink, I feel safe in presuming that he was just returning home, at least safer than assuming he was up to no good, since walking slowly seems to be the only reasoning behind the suspicion.

I don't know at all.

When I look at the pictures of him (excluding the ones of him flipping the bird) I see what looks like a nice kid who wouldn't cause any trouble. He doesn't look like a gangbanger to me and he doesn't look like a trouble maker, well any more than any of us ever caused trouble. Then I read the reports about him being suspended and the women's jewelry (none of which Zimmerman would have known) and I wonder if looks can be deceiving.

I almost wish that the report would have come out that Zimmerman was not arrested pending investigation and told not to leave town rather than it coming out as it did that he was not arrested at all and basically the case was closed.

Immie

 

[Erand7899]

Damn, you are sooooooo close to being logical here. Why can't you just take that next step? What is stopping you?

I don't have enough facts. Do you?

No gun......no dead kid.
No following....no dead kid.
Obey dispatcher....no dead kid.

Those are facts.

Facts are funny things since they only point to the truth when one has all of the facts, and not just the ones that support your opinion. You seem to forget, that Zimmerman had as much right to be on that street as Martin did. Zimmerman had a right to be armed, and had a right to monitor a suspicious character. If, Zimmerman had not had a gun, he may have been the dead one.

The act of being watched, including the act of being followed, does not give anyone the right to beat up the person doing the watching or the following. The only person who knows for sure who initiated contact, and who threw the first blow, is Zimmerman. He says that Martin did so. Unless you have evidence to the contrary, Zimmerman's version stands as the legal truth.

 

[bobcollum]

What evidence do you have to support that part in red.

The only one who knew what Trayvon Martin was up to is Trayvon Martin and unfortunately he can't tell us what he was doing.

Immie

You're correct, it can't be proven, but based on what we do know, that he left watching a basketball game at home to go to a 7-11 to get some candy and a drink, I feel safe in presuming that he was just returning home, at least safer than assuming he was up to no good, since walking slowly seems to be the only reasoning behind the suspicion.

I don't know at all.

When I look at the pictures of him (excluding the ones of him flipping the bird) I see what looks like a nice kid who wouldn't cause any trouble. He doesn't look like a gangbanger to me and he doesn't look like a trouble maker, well any more than any of us ever caused trouble. Then I read the reports about him being suspended and the women's jewelry (none of which Zimmerman would have known) and I wonder if looks can be deceiving.

I almost wish that the report would have come out that Zimmerman was not arrested pending investigation and told not to leave town rather than it coming out as it did that he was not arrested at all and basically the case was closed.

Immie

I agree with your take on Martin, pretty much completely.

Regardless, at that particular time there was no evidence to support the notion that he was intent on committing a crime and Zimmerman's actions were at best overcautious. Logically his purchase and carrying of candy and a drink strikes me as odd for someone that was out to burglarize a neighborhood.

 

[Immanuel]

You're correct, it can't be proven, but based on what we do know, that he left watching a basketball game at home to go to a 7-11 to get some candy and a drink, I feel safe in presuming that he was just returning home, at least safer than assuming he was up to no good, since walking slowly seems to be the only reasoning behind the suspicion.

I don't know at all.

When I look at the pictures of him (excluding the ones of him flipping the bird) I see what looks like a nice kid who wouldn't cause any trouble. He doesn't look like a gangbanger to me and he doesn't look like a trouble maker, well any more than any of us ever caused trouble. Then I read the reports about him being suspended and the women's jewelry (none of which Zimmerman would have known) and I wonder if looks can be deceiving.

I almost wish that the report would have come out that Zimmerman was not arrested pending investigation and told not to leave town rather than it coming out as it did that he was not arrested at all and basically the case was closed.

Immie

I agree with your take on Martin, pretty much completely.

Regardless, at that particular time there was no evidence to support the notion that he was intent on committing a crime and Zimmerman's actions were at best overcautious. Logically his purchase and carrying of candy and a drink strikes me as odd for someone that was out to burglarize a neighborhood.

That would be assuming that something (a nice car with keys on the console, an open door to a garage) or something like that didn't catch his attention. I'm not saying it did, but if he were walking down the street and saw such a car, he could have had a change of plans. That is all speculation. I'm not claiming it happened. If it had, I would have thought Zimmerman would have mentioned it from the start.

What I can't figure out is if Zimmerman was the aggressor, what caused it? Was he just a racist MFer who wanted to kill a black kid? I don't see it. Maybe he just wanted to play cop and things went sour? I can actually understand why Trayvon might be aggressive if he were being followed and treated like a criminal for doing nothing but walking down the street, but I can't think of a reason for Zimmerman to attack unprovoked.

This tragedy sucks!

Immie

 

[Old Rocks]

But he started the chain of events by doing something that he shouldn't have, that's what bugs me about it. He could have played it much differently and averted the entire incident.

Exactly how dare an adult call police in the night and try to keep an eye on a suspicious teen and disrespect him like that.

You gonna die tonight.

First, had he just called the police and waited until they came, none of this would have happened.

Second, the quote you use is what Zimmerman said that Tryvon said. We will never know Trayvon's side of the story, now, will we.

And then there is the matter of the police video taken forty minutes after the event. With Zimmerman showing no marks of a confrontation. Zimmerman is lying from the gitgo.

 

[Peach]

Maybe he just wanted to play cop and things went sour?

Those are my first thoughts.

 

[Peach]

Second, the quote you use is what Zimmerman said that Tryvon said. We will never know Trayvon's side of the story, now, will we.

And then there is the matter of the police video taken forty minutes after the event. With Zimmerman showing no marks of a confrontation. Zimmerman is lying from the gitgo.[/QUOTE]

The distance between the two when Martin was killed MAY shed some light on the killing.

 

[daveman]

Little?

It's disgusting.

And yet calling for Zimmerman's death without a trial is perfectly rational and acceptable.

Link a post that did that..and I will call it disgusting too.

Post? I was talking about the lightweight chump NBPP.

 

[daveman]

I don't recall doing that.

I can't be held responsible for the idiots.

I wasn't posting to you. I was responding to Sallow, who wants to string Zimmerman up last week.

Oh me?

Find the post Daveman.

You mean you haven't decided Zimmerman's guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt?

Hmmm. Must be the other Sallow guy on the board.