Is Public School Education Under-funded?

DGS49

Diamond Member
Apr 12, 2012
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Pittsburgh
While every state and every school district is different, I think my own state of Pennsylvania may be representative of the status quo, at least among the northern states. We spend upwards of $20k per year on every student, K-12, which is more than three times what was spent in 1960, even adjusted for inflation.

"Test scores" (however that is defined) have not improved; in fact, they have deteriorated by some measures. More kids go from 12th grade in public schools to college, but colleges have gone from a training ground for the elite to a dumping ground for anyone who wants to delay adulthood for a couple years and can scrounge up the money to do it. (Our astronomical student debt proves that point).

The culture has not helped educational outcomes. In fact, it fosters an attitude that is not conducive to hard work, studying, seeking out knowledge, or assuming responsibility for one's own success or the lack of it. In our schools, failure is excused and mediocrity is hailed as outstanding. Whole classes of students graduate with GPA's of 3-point-something, which means without any doubt that the grading system is phony - implemented to make the students feel good and the teachers feel like they have accomplished something.

Schools have gone from places where kids were taught "the Three R's" to institutions that provide sex education, political indoctrination, substance abuse counseling, breakfast and lunch, babysitting services, and extracurricular activities that are so extensive that they take the primary focus totally away from education for many of the "students."

Teacher compensation has gone from subsistence level (in the 60's) to be better than 90% of other degreed "professionals" in the Real World, when you consider salary, benefits, vacation, and early retirement. It has gone from a "vocation" involving sacrifice for the betterment of society, to a "dream job" that attracts thousands more applications every year than the system can even process (in the better school districts).

And yet, Democrat politicians continue to hammer at the theme that public education is not adequately funded, and that's why the "results" are do disappointing. Here in Pennsylvania, our Governor has staked his entire Governorship on a demand that the Republican legislature hit our natural gas industry with a heavy new tax, and give that money to the education establishment. We have gone 4 months without a state budget as a result of his drawing this line in the sand.

Having worked for 8 years in the public sector and since 1975 in the private sector, I have seen two diametrically opposed approaches to a perceived shortage of funding. In the private sector, Management eliminates headcount, cuts expenses, and demands that everyone remaining "do more with less." Six months later, we wonder what the gone people did for a living, because we've gotten along without them. In the Public Sector, the only conceivable reaction to a perceived shortage of funding (which is the state of existence basically ALL THE TIME), is a demand for more funding.

Is public education underfunded, or is it just a giant hole in the budget that absorbs everything thrown into it, and keeps demanding more? It should be obvious what I think.
 
While every state and every school district is different, I think my own state of Pennsylvania may be representative of the status quo, at least among the northern states. We spend upwards of $20k per year on every student, K-12, which is more than three times what was spent in 1960, even adjusted for inflation.

"Test scores" (however that is defined) have not improved; in fact, they have deteriorated by some measures. More kids go from 12th grade in public schools to college, but colleges have gone from a training ground for the elite to a dumping ground for anyone who wants to delay adulthood for a couple years and can scrounge up the money to do it. (Our astronomical student debt proves that point).

The culture has not helped educational outcomes. In fact, it fosters an attitude that is not conducive to hard work, studying, seeking out knowledge, or assuming responsibility for one's own success or the lack of it. In our schools, failure is excused and mediocrity is hailed as outstanding. Whole classes of students graduate with GPA's of 3-point-something, which means without any doubt that the grading system is phony - implemented to make the students feel good and the teachers feel like they have accomplished something.

Schools have gone from places where kids were taught "the Three R's" to institutions that provide sex education, political indoctrination, substance abuse counseling, breakfast and lunch, babysitting services, and extracurricular activities that are so extensive that they take the primary focus totally away from education for many of the "students."

Teacher compensation has gone from subsistence level (in the 60's) to be better than 90% of other degreed "professionals" in the Real World, when you consider salary, benefits, vacation, and early retirement. It has gone from a "vocation" involving sacrifice for the betterment of society, to a "dream job" that attracts thousands more applications every year than the system can even process (in the better school districts).

And yet, Democrat politicians continue to hammer at the theme that public education is not adequately funded, and that's why the "results" are do disappointing. Here in Pennsylvania, our Governor has staked his entire Governorship on a demand that the Republican legislature hit our natural gas industry with a heavy new tax, and give that money to the education establishment. We have gone 4 months without a state budget as a result of his drawing this line in the sand.

Having worked for 8 years in the public sector and since 1975 in the private sector, I have seen two diametrically opposed approaches to a perceived shortage of funding. In the private sector, Management eliminates headcount, cuts expenses, and demands that everyone remaining "do more with less." Six months later, we wonder what the gone people did for a living, because we've gotten along without them. In the Public Sector, the only conceivable reaction to a perceived shortage of funding (which is the state of existence basically ALL THE TIME), is a demand for more funding.

Is public education underfunded, or is it just a giant hole in the budget that absorbs everything thrown into it, and keeps demanding more? It should be obvious what I think.
It seems in our desperation we have let into education the business class and they are cleaning up. Read some of the literature about the inequalities in education from school to school in the same district, the juggling of scores and on and on.
 
When parents begin to, in droves, think of public school as a warehouse, a baby sitting service and they don't have to participate in any way....yeah, money's not gonna help at all.
 
It's not the money as much as it is very little local control by the districts.
 
>

Just a couple of things:

1. The "average cost" of student education in Pennsylvania was $13,864 in 2013. Therefore I disagree with the idea that the cost every student in Pennsylvania is "upwards of" $20,000 on every student. The average cost means that there are some higher and some lower, $20,000 isn't a minimum. (Education Spending Per Student by State)

2. To add to the above, special education students are VERY expensive some needing private tutoring or must be in very small class sizes, some when mainstreamed require an instructional assistant be with them personally throughout the day, some need special health attendants for physical challenges, some need specialized transportation vehicles to pick them up and return them. The cost of special education students can be huge on a district consuming large amounts of resources - all that is then part of the "average cost" driving it up.

3. In our district average teacher salary is $46,000, they are paid on a 200 day contract and don't get paid vacation. The 8-9 weeks off in the summer are not paid time off. Someone at the high end of our teacher scale make about $65,000 annually. That means after 30 years their retirement is $33,150 or about $2,700 a month. Not saying that's bad, but hardly making more than "90%" of other professionals (which by that I mean those that require a minimum of a Bachelors or Master Degree and professional licensing to work).


>>>>
 
It's not underfunded at all, the funds are used incorrectly. A teacher on my hall doesn't even have a printer in her room...yet the front office got brand new furniture (thousands of dollars worth). My department also lacks a copy machine, and our computer lab is outdated as well.

Priorities is the problem.

What people don't understand is that adding more funds to education doesn't mean it'll improve. Just ask any teacher working in a district that's using the Gates Foundation's EET.

The solution to education is very simple, but it's something people don't want to do: give more autonomy to teachers. I know my student's needs more than anybody else does. Period. I will ge them where they need to go...the bureaucracy does make it difficult however.
 
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It is what the kids can get away with...They need to be beat again and expected to get the fucking work done.

Then we need to focus on math, science, writing, reading and useful skills. No more can I put a pipe up my ass?
 
For comparison, the average comp in my school district is about $80thou. 25% are in six figures.

Retirement after 30 years from ANY job is an asurdity. At today's longevity rates, the taxpayers will be paying these folks for retirements that are LONGER THAN THEIR WORKING CAREERS. And if trends continue, the value of their health insurance adds substantially, and without limits.

Unmentioned thus far in this thread is the total inability to remove an ineffective teacher for non-performance - the single biggest insult to the public that is paying the bills.
 
There are fifty state governments and 13000 school districts funding public education and within many of those 13,000 school districts funding is often uneven. Some schools receive more money than another district school a few blocks away.
 
For comparison, the average comp in my school district is about $80thou. 25% are in six figures.

Retirement after 30 years from ANY job is an asurdity. At today's longevity rates, the taxpayers will be paying these folks for retirements that are LONGER THAN THEIR WORKING CAREERS. And if trends continue, the value of their health insurance adds substantially, and without limits.

Unmentioned thus far in this thread is the total inability to remove an ineffective teacher for non-performance - the single biggest insult to the public that is paying the bills.
Bub, the boomers are retiring, and the boomers WILL receive the benefits for which they worked and contributed. End of that story.
 
For comparison, the average comp in my school district is about $80thou. 25% are in six figures.

Retirement after 30 years from ANY job is an asurdity. At today's longevity rates, the taxpayers will be paying these folks for retirements that are LONGER THAN THEIR WORKING CAREERS. And if trends continue, the value of their health insurance adds substantially, and without limits.

Unmentioned thus far in this thread is the total inability to remove an ineffective teacher for non-performance - the single biggest insult to the public that is paying the bills.
Bub, the boomers are retiring, and the boomers WILL receive the benefits for which they worked and contributed. End of that story.


What happens when the amount of benefits exceeds the amount of contribution?
 
For comparison, the average comp in my school district is about $80thou. 25% are in six figures.

Retirement after 30 years from ANY job is an asurdity. At today's longevity rates, the taxpayers will be paying these folks for retirements that are LONGER THAN THEIR WORKING CAREERS. And if trends continue, the value of their health insurance adds substantially, and without limits.

Unmentioned thus far in this thread is the total inability to remove an ineffective teacher for non-performance - the single biggest insult to the public that is paying the bills.
Bub, the boomers are retiring, and the boomers WILL receive the benefits for which they worked and contributed. End of that story.
What happens when the amount of benefits exceeds the amount of contribution?
Up the taxable limit to 1.8 million per year income and there will be no problem.
 
While every state and every school district is different, I think my own state of Pennsylvania may be representative of the status quo, at least among the northern states. We spend upwards of $20k per year on every student, K-12, which is more than three times what was spent in 1960, even adjusted for inflation.

"Test scores" (however that is defined) have not improved; in fact, they have deteriorated by some measures. More kids go from 12th grade in public schools to college, but colleges have gone from a training ground for the elite to a dumping ground for anyone who wants to delay adulthood for a couple years and can scrounge up the money to do it. (Our astronomical student debt proves that point).

The culture has not helped educational outcomes. In fact, it fosters an attitude that is not conducive to hard work, studying, seeking out knowledge, or assuming responsibility for one's own success or the lack of it. In our schools, failure is excused and mediocrity is hailed as outstanding. Whole classes of students graduate with GPA's of 3-point-something, which means without any doubt that the grading system is phony - implemented to make the students feel good and the teachers feel like they have accomplished something.

Schools have gone from places where kids were taught "the Three R's" to institutions that provide sex education, political indoctrination, substance abuse counseling, breakfast and lunch, babysitting services, and extracurricular activities that are so extensive that they take the primary focus totally away from education for many of the "students."

Teacher compensation has gone from subsistence level (in the 60's) to be better than 90% of other degreed "professionals" in the Real World, when you consider salary, benefits, vacation, and early retirement. It has gone from a "vocation" involving sacrifice for the betterment of society, to a "dream job" that attracts thousands more applications every year than the system can even process (in the better school districts).

And yet, Democrat politicians continue to hammer at the theme that public education is not adequately funded, and that's why the "results" are do disappointing. Here in Pennsylvania, our Governor has staked his entire Governorship on a demand that the Republican legislature hit our natural gas industry with a heavy new tax, and give that money to the education establishment. We have gone 4 months without a state budget as a result of his drawing this line in the sand.

Having worked for 8 years in the public sector and since 1975 in the private sector, I have seen two diametrically opposed approaches to a perceived shortage of funding. In the private sector, Management eliminates headcount, cuts expenses, and demands that everyone remaining "do more with less." Six months later, we wonder what the gone people did for a living, because we've gotten along without them. In the Public Sector, the only conceivable reaction to a perceived shortage of funding (which is the state of existence basically ALL THE TIME), is a demand for more funding.

Is public education underfunded, or is it just a giant hole in the budget that absorbs everything thrown into it, and keeps demanding more? It should be obvious what I think.






In some areas yes. In most of them though the answer would be no. Public schools in most areas are over funded. Of course most of that money go's into the pockets of the administrators and not the teachers. That needs to be addressed.
 
When parents begin to, in droves, think of public school as a warehouse, a baby sitting service and they don't have to participate in any way....yeah, money's not gonna help at all.






Parents are indeed a problem but look at the amount of time that kids spend in school. Arguably the teachers spend more WAKING time with the kids than the parents do. The claim that it is all the parents fault is moronic.
 
The parents are the ones who are to reinforce what the teachers are doing in class. Those parents who don't are failing in this area.






Yes, the parents can indeed undermine progress that has been made in school. No argument. However good teachers can overcome that to the largest extent. But the claim that teachers bear no responsibility for the abominable performance on their students is ridiculous. Private schools provide better education for less money than public schools. That is a fact. Teachers in public schools are nearly impossible to get rid of if they are bad. Teachers that are outstanding are reviled by the other teachers in their school because it makes them look bad.

Out in Dayton i think it was just a few years ago they had a outstanding teacher who was voted best in the state and he was let go instead of another teacher who had been there a little longer when they had an economic downturn. That is the madness that is our public school system.
 
For comparison, the average comp in my school district is about $80thou. 25% are in six figures.

Retirement after 30 years from ANY job is an asurdity. At today's longevity rates, the taxpayers will be paying these folks for retirements that are LONGER THAN THEIR WORKING CAREERS. And if trends continue, the value of their health insurance adds substantially, and without limits.

Unmentioned thus far in this thread is the total inability to remove an ineffective teacher for non-performance - the single biggest insult to the public that is paying the bills.
Bub, the boomers are retiring, and the boomers WILL receive the benefits for which they worked and contributed. End of that story.
What happens when the amount of benefits exceeds the amount of contribution?
Up the taxable limit to 1.8 million per year income and there will be no problem.

There will still be a problem unless you up their distribution amount to a proportional level to someone contributing at minimum wage all their life. Let's say that 1.8 million represents 100 times the amount someone working at minimum wage. Does the person contributing at a 100x higher amount get 100x the distribution of the person at a lower wage?
 
The parents are the ones who are to reinforce what the teachers are doing in class. Those parents who don't are failing in this area.






Yes, the parents can indeed undermine progress that has been made in school. No argument. However good teachers can overcome that to the largest extent. But the claim that teachers bear no responsibility for the abominable performance on their students is ridiculous. Private schools provide better education for less money than public schools. That is a fact. Teachers in public schools are nearly impossible to get rid of if they are bad. Teachers that are outstanding are reviled by the other teachers in their school because it makes them look bad.

Out in Dayton i think it was just a few years ago they had a outstanding teacher who was voted best in the state and he was let go instead of another teacher who had been there a little longer when they had an economic downturn. That is the madness that is our public school system.

So a teacher can overcome in 1 hour/day what thousands of hours from childhood didn't do? That's ridiculous.

Private schools perform better with less money because they can, unlike public schools, get rid of those who don't want to learn. The public school system has to keep them and coddle them thinking they will turn around.
 
The parents are the ones who are to reinforce what the teachers are doing in class. Those parents who don't are failing in this area.






Yes, the parents can indeed undermine progress that has been made in school. No argument. However good teachers can overcome that to the largest extent. But the claim that teachers bear no responsibility for the abominable performance on their students is ridiculous. Private schools provide better education for less money than public schools. That is a fact. Teachers in public schools are nearly impossible to get rid of if they are bad. Teachers that are outstanding are reviled by the other teachers in their school because it makes them look bad.

Out in Dayton i think it was just a few years ago they had a outstanding teacher who was voted best in the state and he was let go instead of another teacher who had been there a little longer when they had an economic downturn. That is the madness that is our public school system.

So a teacher can overcome in 1 hour/day what thousands of hours from childhood didn't do? That's ridiculous.

Private schools perform better with less money because they can, unlike public schools, get rid of those who don't want to learn. The public school system has to keep them and coddle them thinking they will turn around.







The time that parents spend with their kids WHILE THEY'RE AWAKE is around 5 to 6 hours per day. The rest of the time it's sleepy time. Teachers spend at least 7 hours with the kids. So yes, my statement is correct.
 

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