Is Pain And Suffering The Only Way To Convince Atheists That God Exists?

[Lysistrata]

Why would anyone need to "convince atheists that god exists"? What's the point?

 

[night_son]

Atheists always claim they have to have evidence that God exists, but history shows us different. Once you provide the evidence, then they end up forgetting like that which happened to Jesus Christ or they want even more evidence such that every atheist must be convinced.

The Bible says otherwise. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists:

"Jesus performed countless miracles, yet the vast majority of people did not believe in Him. If God performed miracles today as He did in the past, the result would be the same. People would be amazed and would believe in God for a short time. That faith would be shallow and would disappear the moment something unexpected or frightening occurred. A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith. God performed the greatest “God miracle” of all time in coming to earth as the Man Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins (Romans 5:8) so that we could be saved (John 3:16). God does still perform miracles—many of them simply go unnoticed or are denied. However, we do not need more miracles. What we need is to believe in the miracle of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ."

Does God still perform miracles?

Lawrence Krauss is a professor of physics at Arizona State University. He said evidence for God would be as follows.

"Now, it would be easy to have evidence for God. If the stars rearrange themselves tonight and I looked up tonight—well not here, but in a place where you could see the stars, in Arizona, say,—and I looked up tonight and I saw the stars rearrange themselves say, “I am here.”

The Craig - Krauss Debate at North Carolina State University | Reasonable Faith

Later, another atheist responded that he would not accept the stars rearranging themselves because people south of the equator would not be able to see this.

Thus, the only way I see to convince every single atheist is pain and suffering. If they knew God brought this upon them, then they would have to believe. It's like they brought it upon themselves. You asked for it. You got it. Of course, this is what I think happens in the afterlife. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved in this life.

I have a video on pain and suffering. Maybe this is one of the methods.

Threads such as this which fail as both loaded question and strawman fallacies demonstrate that theists aren't very bright.

And yet the brilliance of such a thread attracted you, moth-like.

lol.

when a person starts gibbering incoherently cutting themselves with sharp objects and running amok howling at the moon in the graveyard someone has to break out the straight jacket.

No, this fellow is standing ready, stake in hand.

 

[hobelim]

Atheists always claim they have to have evidence that God exists, but history shows us different. Once you provide the evidence, then they end up forgetting like that which happened to Jesus Christ or they want even more evidence such that every atheist must be convinced.

The Bible says otherwise. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists:

"Jesus performed countless miracles, yet the vast majority of people did not believe in Him. If God performed miracles today as He did in the past, the result would be the same. People would be amazed and would believe in God for a short time. That faith would be shallow and would disappear the moment something unexpected or frightening occurred. A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith. God performed the greatest “God miracle” of all time in coming to earth as the Man Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins (Romans 5:8) so that we could be saved (John 3:16). God does still perform miracles—many of them simply go unnoticed or are denied. However, we do not need more miracles. What we need is to believe in the miracle of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ."

Does God still perform miracles?

Lawrence Krauss is a professor of physics at Arizona State University. He said evidence for God would be as follows.

"Now, it would be easy to have evidence for God. If the stars rearrange themselves tonight and I looked up tonight—well not here, but in a place where you could see the stars, in Arizona, say,—and I looked up tonight and I saw the stars rearrange themselves say, “I am here.”

The Craig - Krauss Debate at North Carolina State University | Reasonable Faith

Later, another atheist responded that he would not accept the stars rearranging themselves because people south of the equator would not be able to see this.

Thus, the only way I see to convince every single atheist is pain and suffering. If they knew God brought this upon them, then they would have to believe. It's like they brought it upon themselves. You asked for it. You got it. Of course, this is what I think happens in the afterlife. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved in this life.

I have a video on pain and suffering. Maybe this is one of the methods.

Threads such as this which fail as both loaded question and strawman fallacies demonstrate that theists aren't very bright.

And yet the brilliance of such a thread attracted you, moth-like.

lol.

when a person starts gibbering incoherently cutting themselves with sharp objects and running amok howling at the moon in the graveyard someone has to break out the straight jacket.

No, this fellow is standing ready, stake in hand.

lol....So you are going to do the honorable thing?

Don't be so hasty.. Here come those nice young men in their clean white coats...You can think of it as being raptured. lol

 

[night_son]

there is no christ, get over it.

Observe: the "because I said so, dummy" method in all its intricate machination.

 

[night_son]

Atheists always claim they have to have evidence that God exists, but history shows us different. Once you provide the evidence, then they end up forgetting like that which happened to Jesus Christ or they want even more evidence such that every atheist must be convinced.

The Bible says otherwise. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists:

"Jesus performed countless miracles, yet the vast majority of people did not believe in Him. If God performed miracles today as He did in the past, the result would be the same. People would be amazed and would believe in God for a short time. That faith would be shallow and would disappear the moment something unexpected or frightening occurred. A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith. God performed the greatest “God miracle” of all time in coming to earth as the Man Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins (Romans 5:8) so that we could be saved (John 3:16). God does still perform miracles—many of them simply go unnoticed or are denied. However, we do not need more miracles. What we need is to believe in the miracle of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ."

Does God still perform miracles?

Lawrence Krauss is a professor of physics at Arizona State University. He said evidence for God would be as follows.

"Now, it would be easy to have evidence for God. If the stars rearrange themselves tonight and I looked up tonight—well not here, but in a place where you could see the stars, in Arizona, say,—and I looked up tonight and I saw the stars rearrange themselves say, “I am here.”

The Craig - Krauss Debate at North Carolina State University | Reasonable Faith

Later, another atheist responded that he would not accept the stars rearranging themselves because people south of the equator would not be able to see this.

Thus, the only way I see to convince every single atheist is pain and suffering. If they knew God brought this upon them, then they would have to believe. It's like they brought it upon themselves. You asked for it. You got it. Of course, this is what I think happens in the afterlife. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved in this life.

I have a video on pain and suffering. Maybe this is one of the methods.

Threads such as this which fail as both loaded question and strawman fallacies demonstrate that theists aren't very bright.

And yet the brilliance of such a thread attracted you, moth-like.

lol.

when a person starts gibbering incoherently cutting themselves with sharp objects and running amok howling at the moon in the graveyard someone has to break out the straight jacket.

No, this fellow is standing ready, stake in hand.

lol....So you are going to do the honorable thing?

Don't be so hasty.. Here come those nice young men in their clean white coats...

Just whistling some Paradise Lost, chewing some Big League, and awaiting the rising tides along the funerary shorelines. Damn, I'm all out of bubble gum after all.

 

[SweetSue92]

Atheists always claim they have to have evidence that God exists, but history shows us different. Once you provide the evidence, then they end up forgetting like that which happened to Jesus Christ or they want even more evidence such that every atheist must be convinced.

The Bible says otherwise. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists:

"Jesus performed countless miracles, yet the vast majority of people did not believe in Him. If God performed miracles today as He did in the past, the result would be the same. People would be amazed and would believe in God for a short time. That faith would be shallow and would disappear the moment something unexpected or frightening occurred. A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith. God performed the greatest “God miracle” of all time in coming to earth as the Man Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins (Romans 5:8) so that we could be saved (John 3:16). God does still perform miracles—many of them simply go unnoticed or are denied. However, we do not need more miracles. What we need is to believe in the miracle of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ."

Does God still perform miracles?

Lawrence Krauss is a professor of physics at Arizona State University. He said evidence for God would be as follows.

"Now, it would be easy to have evidence for God. If the stars rearrange themselves tonight and I looked up tonight—well not here, but in a place where you could see the stars, in Arizona, say,—and I looked up tonight and I saw the stars rearrange themselves say, “I am here.”

The Craig - Krauss Debate at North Carolina State University | Reasonable Faith

Later, another atheist responded that he would not accept the stars rearranging themselves because people south of the equator would not be able to see this.

Thus, the only way I see to convince every single atheist is pain and suffering. If they knew God brought this upon them, then they would have to believe. It's like they brought it upon themselves. You asked for it. You got it. Of course, this is what I think happens in the afterlife. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved in this life.

I have a video on pain and suffering. Maybe this is one of the methods.

.

The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved in this life.

the path to their existence and the Everlasting is available for all who would follow the religion of Antiquity and Triumph as prescribed.

What we need is to believe in the miracle of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ."

what you need to do is add footnotes to your 4th century bible that the character you describe in your book is not the same as the one that was crucified in the 1st century and stop stealing from the original religion of Antiquity prescribed by the Almighty and seek forgiveness for your transgression against their religion.

and also that it does not matter whether a person is religious, an atheist or anything else but simply to follow the prescribed path is all that is required for Admission to the Everlasting. -

there is no christ, get over it.

Hmmm where do you find this "prescribed path to the Everlasting"?

 

[SweetSue92]

Why would anyone need to "convince atheists that god exists"? What's the point?

I can't be convinced out of my faith. Many atheists cannot be convinced out of theirs.

We who talk about our faith, God, Jesus, the Bible, religious topics--I suppose we find it interesting, and we're commanded to do so. If the seed falls on fertile soil, God be praised.

 

[BreezeWood]

but we are all born with sin and the god of the world and the prince of the air influences all of us. It's not the true God as you claim who does nothing to stop it. Instead, the truth is God does exist. See, this shows that you are ignorant.

There is a difference between faith in Christianity and other faiths and that only one is the truth and that is the Word of God in the Bible.

but we are all born with sin ...

christian transgression from the truth is the proof of their fallacy as a religion and are nothing more than a run of the mill political agenda.


that is the Word of God in the Bible ...

the christian bible claims everyone is born a sinner, a lye, the opposite of the religion as prescribed by the Almighty to Triumph before their death to be Judged for Admission to the Everlasting, christianity is a 4th century self absorbing fraud.

they have centuries of uninterrupted persecution and victimization of the innocent as their calling card ...

 

[BreezeWood]

there is no christ, get over it.

Observe: the "because I said so, dummy" method in all its intricate machination.

.
what truly will disappear is your "religion" when the last copy on Earth ceases to exist. the Spoken, Religion of Antiquity is immortal.

 

[BreezeWood]

Atheists always claim they have to have evidence that God exists, but history shows us different. Once you provide the evidence, then they end up forgetting like that which happened to Jesus Christ or they want even more evidence such that every atheist must be convinced.

The Bible says otherwise. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists:

"Jesus performed countless miracles, yet the vast majority of people did not believe in Him. If God performed miracles today as He did in the past, the result would be the same. People would be amazed and would believe in God for a short time. That faith would be shallow and would disappear the moment something unexpected or frightening occurred. A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith. God performed the greatest “God miracle” of all time in coming to earth as the Man Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins (Romans 5:8) so that we could be saved (John 3:16). God does still perform miracles—many of them simply go unnoticed or are denied. However, we do not need more miracles. What we need is to believe in the miracle of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ."

Does God still perform miracles?

Lawrence Krauss is a professor of physics at Arizona State University. He said evidence for God would be as follows.

"Now, it would be easy to have evidence for God. If the stars rearrange themselves tonight and I looked up tonight—well not here, but in a place where you could see the stars, in Arizona, say,—and I looked up tonight and I saw the stars rearrange themselves say, “I am here.”

The Craig - Krauss Debate at North Carolina State University | Reasonable Faith

Later, another atheist responded that he would not accept the stars rearranging themselves because people south of the equator would not be able to see this.

Thus, the only way I see to convince every single atheist is pain and suffering. If they knew God brought this upon them, then they would have to believe. It's like they brought it upon themselves. You asked for it. You got it. Of course, this is what I think happens in the afterlife. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved in this life.

I have a video on pain and suffering. Maybe this is one of the methods.

.

The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved in this life.

the path to their existence and the Everlasting is available for all who would follow the religion of Antiquity and Triumph as prescribed.

What we need is to believe in the miracle of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ."

what you need to do is add footnotes to your 4th century bible that the character you describe in your book is not the same as the one that was crucified in the 1st century and stop stealing from the original religion of Antiquity prescribed by the Almighty and seek forgiveness for your transgression against their religion.

and also that it does not matter whether a person is religious, an atheist or anything else but simply to follow the prescribed path is all that is required for Admission to the Everlasting. -

there is no christ, get over it.

Hmmm where do you find this "prescribed path to the Everlasting"?

.

Hmmm where do you find this "prescribed path to the Everlasting"?

The Triumph of Good vs Evil, Noah - the religion of Antiquity.

 

[night_son]

there is no christ, get over it.

Observe: the "because I said so, dummy" method in all its intricate machination.

.
what truly will disappear is your "religion" when the last copy on Earth ceases to exist. the Spoken, Religion of Antiquity is immortal.

The Word lives inside us. A belief can never be slain, same as your shadow, standing in the Light, cannot be outrun.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Well, I was looking at it from the pov as a Christian that atheists want *proof* of God before they believe he exists. However, there won't be any proof because God stated that we have to have faith that he exists.

Lawrence Krauss said in the debate with Craig that he'll reconsider if a miracle occurred of the stars aligning to spell, "I'm here" or something to that effect. However, an astute atheist claimed that that isn't enough. The atheists in the other half of the hemisphere to Arizona would not see it. I thought this atheist said the only thing intelligent about atheism, i.e. someone would have to convince every single atheist and not just one, a few or many.

As for your Venus Fly Trap analogy, that's a fly or insect and we do not know if it feels pain in the trap. However, let's say God captures it and tears off its wings one-at-a-time and then moves to the legs one-at-a-time. Will the fly be more likely to believe if it could could communicate at a rudimentary level that it was in pain and does believe? I mean in this world, what would convince every single fly that God exists and is showing his power?

So, you're basically saying you have no proof, but people should just accept what you say simply because you say it?

So you don't know if a fly feels pain, but you know God exists.

Why can't you just believe a fly feels pain the same way you believe God exists.

Whatever, we're not talking about the fly, but the plant. The plant will MOVE, which means the plant is receiving messages from other parts of the plant, which is the same as how we feel pain

You are all over the board and either deliberately do not understand what I said or are having reading comprehension problems. You are reducing what I said. I did not say that I have no proof. What I said was people have to have faith first.

I did not say a fly feels no pain. It should feel pain when its wings are ripped off or its legs are ripped off. Isn't that the purpose of making the fly believe you are more powerful, that you exist and do not like what its doing? Otherwise, ti will just go on its way and lay larvae in your food and bring germs into your environment. Your plant is a death trap. Bug spray is to cause pain and death. You can swat the fly or use sticky fly paper as a death trap.

As for the plant, it's seeking food. The fly and other insects are its food. So, my analogy is better than yours.

What I said was one has to have faith in the God of Christianity. What happens after that is he will reveal himself and you will find the truth.

Now, what is the point of the plant and its messages? It's isn't the same as how we feel pain, is it? Is that what you're claiming ha ha?

No, I read what you wrote perfectly.

When you write "However, there won't be any proof" it kind of makes people think that you don't have any proof. I mean, that is basically what you said, right?

Yes, people have to have faith first. They have to be willing to believe, to accept what they've been told and not to bother with the mumbojumbo of actually having evidence of things.

Why do you think someone like Trump does really well in a country like the US where 3/4 people are religious to some extent?

Because they've already had their minds open to accepting complete crap that someone told them and reinforces what they want to believe, and to easily reject that which is real because it's not convenient.

So flies might feel pain. Probably do, I mean pain is merely a communication from one part of the body to another. So what? It doesn't prove anything to do with any god in any way. It merely means their body communicates with its brain.



So, your argument is that first you have to have the faith to then believe in the god. That if you're not into faith, then you're never going to believe in god because, quite frankly, he's made up.

I mean, you have to be open to made up shit in order to be open to God. Is that more or less your argument?

Yes, what the fuck is the point of the whole message thing with flies and plants? It's your shitty argument here about pain proving the existence of God, somehow. I didn't get it.

I agree that God as defined by the OP, a God whose existence cannot be proven or verified, does not exist, but do you accept the possibility that there is a God that would account for esoteric biblical reports of a superior being whose existence is absolute that is unknown and unverifiable because people, believers and unbelievers alike, have misunderstood scripture creating a false image and likeness of God?

I mean if people gave a bizarre description of a criminal to a police sketch artist they could look and look for the perpetrator till the end of the world and never finds anyone who matches that false image and if they ever did it wouldn't be the right person.....

This one ^^ is crafty. He would have the believer-in-doubt misbelieve that the Word of God is something to be found only outside the mind and body--a physical object, same as a criminal who must be located by vague description. When in Truth, God's Word and Being lie within us, and without. Attempts to send Christians who want to believe again off on a wild goose chase/snipe hunt for Spirit and Faith where neither will ever be found are common enough attempts used to shake young minds free from God's Word. Perhaps Kindergarten is the place you should peddle your wares, although, the strength of young faith could surprise you.

So, if God is within us, and only Christianity is the true God within us, then why is religion regional?

Why is Christianity in the lower part of Africa and Islam in the more northern parts? And Christianity in the Americas and most of Europe except for bits closer to Turkey, and then the Middle East is mostly Muslim and then different types of religion in India, Nepal, China, Japan etc?

Surely if it were truly inside of us, as you say, then everyone would believe the same thing.

 

[Lysistrata]

Why would anyone need to "convince atheists that god exists"? What's the point?

I can't be convinced out of my faith. Many atheists cannot be convinced out of theirs.

We who talk about our faith, God, Jesus, the Bible, religious topics--I suppose we find it interesting, and we're commanded to do so. If the seed falls on fertile soil, God be praised.

I don't know why you people do these things. It's your cult. Okay. Bond here is a fellow cult member. I get it. Just don't hurt anyone else.

 

[night_son]

So, you're basically saying you have no proof, but people should just accept what you say simply because you say it?

So you don't know if a fly feels pain, but you know God exists.

Why can't you just believe a fly feels pain the same way you believe God exists.

Whatever, we're not talking about the fly, but the plant. The plant will MOVE, which means the plant is receiving messages from other parts of the plant, which is the same as how we feel pain

You are all over the board and either deliberately do not understand what I said or are having reading comprehension problems. You are reducing what I said. I did not say that I have no proof. What I said was people have to have faith first.

I did not say a fly feels no pain. It should feel pain when its wings are ripped off or its legs are ripped off. Isn't that the purpose of making the fly believe you are more powerful, that you exist and do not like what its doing? Otherwise, ti will just go on its way and lay larvae in your food and bring germs into your environment. Your plant is a death trap. Bug spray is to cause pain and death. You can swat the fly or use sticky fly paper as a death trap.

As for the plant, it's seeking food. The fly and other insects are its food. So, my analogy is better than yours.

What I said was one has to have faith in the God of Christianity. What happens after that is he will reveal himself and you will find the truth.

Now, what is the point of the plant and its messages? It's isn't the same as how we feel pain, is it? Is that what you're claiming ha ha?

No, I read what you wrote perfectly.

When you write "However, there won't be any proof" it kind of makes people think that you don't have any proof. I mean, that is basically what you said, right?

Yes, people have to have faith first. They have to be willing to believe, to accept what they've been told and not to bother with the mumbojumbo of actually having evidence of things.

Why do you think someone like Trump does really well in a country like the US where 3/4 people are religious to some extent?

Because they've already had their minds open to accepting complete crap that someone told them and reinforces what they want to believe, and to easily reject that which is real because it's not convenient.

So flies might feel pain. Probably do, I mean pain is merely a communication from one part of the body to another. So what? It doesn't prove anything to do with any god in any way. It merely means their body communicates with its brain.



So, your argument is that first you have to have the faith to then believe in the god. That if you're not into faith, then you're never going to believe in god because, quite frankly, he's made up.

I mean, you have to be open to made up shit in order to be open to God. Is that more or less your argument?

Yes, what the fuck is the point of the whole message thing with flies and plants? It's your shitty argument here about pain proving the existence of God, somehow. I didn't get it.

I agree that God as defined by the OP, a God whose existence cannot be proven or verified, does not exist, but do you accept the possibility that there is a God that would account for esoteric biblical reports of a superior being whose existence is absolute that is unknown and unverifiable because people, believers and unbelievers alike, have misunderstood scripture creating a false image and likeness of God?

I mean if people gave a bizarre description of a criminal to a police sketch artist they could look and look for the perpetrator till the end of the world and never finds anyone who matches that false image and if they ever did it wouldn't be the right person.....

This one ^^ is crafty. He would have the believer-in-doubt misbelieve that the Word of God is something to be found only outside the mind and body--a physical object, same as a criminal who must be located by vague description. When in Truth, God's Word and Being lie within us, and without. Attempts to send Christians who want to believe again off on a wild goose chase/snipe hunt for Spirit and Faith where neither will ever be found are common enough attempts used to shake young minds free from God's Word. Perhaps Kindergarten is the place you should peddle your wares, although, the strength of young faith could surprise you.

So, if God is within us, and only Christianity is the true God within us, then why is religion regional?

Why is Christianity in the lower part of Africa and Islam in the more northern parts? And Christianity in the Americas and most of Europe except for bits closer to Turkey, and then the Middle East is mostly Muslim and then different types of religion in India, Nepal, China, Japan etc?

Surely if it were truly inside of us, as you say, then everyone would believe the same thing.

Everyone has since time immemorial expressed the same belief, only, in different ways and in the "teachings" and faces of different Gods, all synonymous with the same, True God . . . they just got the name wrong a few tens of thousands of times. Come on, Frigid, this is basic basic. Hell, call Him whatever you like; you'll only get there by entreating Him by one name. Personally, if I was not a Christian, cool factor would have to go to some kind of Egyptian badass animal/human hybrid deity. Sekhet? How cool.

The Logos is primal as primal gets. Nascence of our race primal.

 

[Syriusly]

Why is it always the self proclaimed Christians that start these threads?

Never Jews
Or Muslims
Or Hindus
Or anyone else.

Only Christians seem so damned offended because I don't believe in their fairy in the sky.

 

[hobelim]

Well, I was looking at it from the pov as a Christian that atheists want *proof* of God before they believe he exists. However, there won't be any proof because God stated that we have to have faith that he exists.

Lawrence Krauss said in the debate with Craig that he'll reconsider if a miracle occurred of the stars aligning to spell, "I'm here" or something to that effect. However, an astute atheist claimed that that isn't enough. The atheists in the other half of the hemisphere to Arizona would not see it. I thought this atheist said the only thing intelligent about atheism, i.e. someone would have to convince every single atheist and not just one, a few or many.

As for your Venus Fly Trap analogy, that's a fly or insect and we do not know if it feels pain in the trap. However, let's say God captures it and tears off its wings one-at-a-time and then moves to the legs one-at-a-time. Will the fly be more likely to believe if it could could communicate at a rudimentary level that it was in pain and does believe? I mean in this world, what would convince every single fly that God exists and is showing his power?

So, you're basically saying you have no proof, but people should just accept what you say simply because you say it?

So you don't know if a fly feels pain, but you know God exists.

Why can't you just believe a fly feels pain the same way you believe God exists.

Whatever, we're not talking about the fly, but the plant. The plant will MOVE, which means the plant is receiving messages from other parts of the plant, which is the same as how we feel pain

You are all over the board and either deliberately do not understand what I said or are having reading comprehension problems. You are reducing what I said. I did not say that I have no proof. What I said was people have to have faith first.

I did not say a fly feels no pain. It should feel pain when its wings are ripped off or its legs are ripped off. Isn't that the purpose of making the fly believe you are more powerful, that you exist and do not like what its doing? Otherwise, ti will just go on its way and lay larvae in your food and bring germs into your environment. Your plant is a death trap. Bug spray is to cause pain and death. You can swat the fly or use sticky fly paper as a death trap.

As for the plant, it's seeking food. The fly and other insects are its food. So, my analogy is better than yours.

What I said was one has to have faith in the God of Christianity. What happens after that is he will reveal himself and you will find the truth.

Now, what is the point of the plant and its messages? It's isn't the same as how we feel pain, is it? Is that what you're claiming ha ha?

No, I read what you wrote perfectly.

When you write "However, there won't be any proof" it kind of makes people think that you don't have any proof. I mean, that is basically what you said, right?

Yes, people have to have faith first. They have to be willing to believe, to accept what they've been told and not to bother with the mumbojumbo of actually having evidence of things.

Why do you think someone like Trump does really well in a country like the US where 3/4 people are religious to some extent?

Because they've already had their minds open to accepting complete crap that someone told them and reinforces what they want to believe, and to easily reject that which is real because it's not convenient.

So flies might feel pain. Probably do, I mean pain is merely a communication from one part of the body to another. So what? It doesn't prove anything to do with any god in any way. It merely means their body communicates with its brain.



So, your argument is that first you have to have the faith to then believe in the god. That if you're not into faith, then you're never going to believe in god because, quite frankly, he's made up.

I mean, you have to be open to made up shit in order to be open to God. Is that more or less your argument?

Yes, what the fuck is the point of the whole message thing with flies and plants? It's your shitty argument here about pain proving the existence of God, somehow. I didn't get it.

I agree that God as defined by the OP, a God whose existence cannot be proven or verified, does not exist, but do you accept the possibility that there is a God that would account for esoteric biblical reports of a superior being whose existence is absolute that is unknown and unverifiable because people, believers and unbelievers alike, have misunderstood scripture creating a false image and likeness of God?

I mean if people gave a bizarre description of a criminal to a police sketch artist they could look and look for the perpetrator till the end of the world and never finds anyone who matches that false image and if they ever did it wouldn't be the right person.....

This one ^^ is crafty. He would have the believer-in-doubt misbelieve that the Word of God is something to be found only outside the mind and body--a physical object, same as a criminal who must be located by vague description. When in Truth, God's Word and Being lie within us, and without. Attempts to send Christians who want to believe again off on a wild goose chase/snipe hunt for Spirit and Faith where neither will ever be found are common enough attempts used to shake young minds free from God's Word. Perhaps Kindergarten is the place you should peddle your wares, although, the strength of young faith could surprise you.

I am not someone who claims that God is outside the body, thats a lie, you are a liar.

I used the comparison of a sketch artist to illustrate the fact that if you are looking for something based on a perversion or a misrepresentation of the facts consequent to your ignorance and failure to understand the figurative language of the prophets you will never find anything except for the delusions of a confused mind inspired by an unrestrained imagination.

If Christians want something to believe in, they will abandon the bullshit story that was crammed down their throats as children with threats of real and imaginary violence and read scripture and make up their own minds for themselves about what is possible and impossible and what the authors were trying to convey during times when there was no such thing as freedom of expression.

They certainly should not listen to the mind numbing poison being spread by people like you.

Their best hope for finding fulfillment in the promise of eternal life for believing in Jesus and complying with the instruction of divine law, according to the way that he taught, is if they were paying attention in grade school when learning about fairy tales and fables, and managed to pass at least one science, history, literature, or biology class in high school......

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Atheists always claim they have to have evidence that God exists, but history shows us different. Once you provide the evidence, then they end up forgetting like that which happened to Jesus Christ or they want even more evidence such that every atheist must be convinced.

The Bible says otherwise. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved. The Bible says that we must accept by faith the fact that God exists:

"Jesus performed countless miracles, yet the vast majority of people did not believe in Him. If God performed miracles today as He did in the past, the result would be the same. People would be amazed and would believe in God for a short time. That faith would be shallow and would disappear the moment something unexpected or frightening occurred. A faith based on miracles is not a mature faith. God performed the greatest “God miracle” of all time in coming to earth as the Man Jesus Christ to die on the cross for our sins (Romans 5:8) so that we could be saved (John 3:16). God does still perform miracles—many of them simply go unnoticed or are denied. However, we do not need more miracles. What we need is to believe in the miracle of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ."

Does God still perform miracles?

Lawrence Krauss is a professor of physics at Arizona State University. He said evidence for God would be as follows.

"Now, it would be easy to have evidence for God. If the stars rearrange themselves tonight and I looked up tonight—well not here, but in a place where you could see the stars, in Arizona, say,—and I looked up tonight and I saw the stars rearrange themselves say, “I am here.”

The Craig - Krauss Debate at North Carolina State University | Reasonable Faith

Later, another atheist responded that he would not accept the stars rearranging themselves because people south of the equator would not be able to see this.

Thus, the only way I see to convince every single atheist is pain and suffering. If they knew God brought this upon them, then they would have to believe. It's like they brought it upon themselves. You asked for it. You got it. Of course, this is what I think happens in the afterlife. The existence of God cannot be proved or disproved in this life.

I have a video on pain and suffering. Maybe this is one of the methods.

This is an example of the arrogance typical of most theists, Christians in particular – to presume that ‘god’ exists as a fact and that those who dare dissent are ‘wrong.’

 

[night_son]

So, you're basically saying you have no proof, but people should just accept what you say simply because you say it?

So you don't know if a fly feels pain, but you know God exists.

Why can't you just believe a fly feels pain the same way you believe God exists.

Whatever, we're not talking about the fly, but the plant. The plant will MOVE, which means the plant is receiving messages from other parts of the plant, which is the same as how we feel pain

You are all over the board and either deliberately do not understand what I said or are having reading comprehension problems. You are reducing what I said. I did not say that I have no proof. What I said was people have to have faith first.

I did not say a fly feels no pain. It should feel pain when its wings are ripped off or its legs are ripped off. Isn't that the purpose of making the fly believe you are more powerful, that you exist and do not like what its doing? Otherwise, ti will just go on its way and lay larvae in your food and bring germs into your environment. Your plant is a death trap. Bug spray is to cause pain and death. You can swat the fly or use sticky fly paper as a death trap.

As for the plant, it's seeking food. The fly and other insects are its food. So, my analogy is better than yours.

What I said was one has to have faith in the God of Christianity. What happens after that is he will reveal himself and you will find the truth.

Now, what is the point of the plant and its messages? It's isn't the same as how we feel pain, is it? Is that what you're claiming ha ha?

No, I read what you wrote perfectly.

When you write "However, there won't be any proof" it kind of makes people think that you don't have any proof. I mean, that is basically what you said, right?

Yes, people have to have faith first. They have to be willing to believe, to accept what they've been told and not to bother with the mumbojumbo of actually having evidence of things.

Why do you think someone like Trump does really well in a country like the US where 3/4 people are religious to some extent?

Because they've already had their minds open to accepting complete crap that someone told them and reinforces what they want to believe, and to easily reject that which is real because it's not convenient.

So flies might feel pain. Probably do, I mean pain is merely a communication from one part of the body to another. So what? It doesn't prove anything to do with any god in any way. It merely means their body communicates with its brain.



So, your argument is that first you have to have the faith to then believe in the god. That if you're not into faith, then you're never going to believe in god because, quite frankly, he's made up.

I mean, you have to be open to made up shit in order to be open to God. Is that more or less your argument?

Yes, what the fuck is the point of the whole message thing with flies and plants? It's your shitty argument here about pain proving the existence of God, somehow. I didn't get it.

I agree that God as defined by the OP, a God whose existence cannot be proven or verified, does not exist, but do you accept the possibility that there is a God that would account for esoteric biblical reports of a superior being whose existence is absolute that is unknown and unverifiable because people, believers and unbelievers alike, have misunderstood scripture creating a false image and likeness of God?

I mean if people gave a bizarre description of a criminal to a police sketch artist they could look and look for the perpetrator till the end of the world and never finds anyone who matches that false image and if they ever did it wouldn't be the right person.....

This one ^^ is crafty. He would have the believer-in-doubt misbelieve that the Word of God is something to be found only outside the mind and body--a physical object, same as a criminal who must be located by vague description. When in Truth, God's Word and Being lie within us, and without. Attempts to send Christians who want to believe again off on a wild goose chase/snipe hunt for Spirit and Faith where neither will ever be found are common enough attempts used to shake young minds free from God's Word. Perhaps Kindergarten is the place you should peddle your wares, although, the strength of young faith could surprise you.

I am not someone who claims that God is outside the body, thats a lie, you are a liar.

I used the comparison of a sketch artist to illustrate the fact that if you are looking for something based on a perversion or a misrepresentation of the facts consequent to your ignorance and failure to understand the figurative language of the prophets you will never find anything except for the delusions of a confused mind inspired by an unrestrained imagination.

If Christians want something to believe in, they will abandon the bullshit story that was crammed down their throats as children with threats of real and imaginary violence and read the scripture and make up their own minds about what is possible and impossible and what the authors were trying to convey during times when there was no such thing as freedom of expression.

Their best hope for finding fulfillment in the promise of eternal life for believing in what Jesus and complying with the instruction of divine law, according to the way that he taught, is if they were paying attention in grade school....

Twist and turn and burn. Revealing in your words, their interpretive self-portrait. You take issue with Christians and their beliefs, while attempting to define a dogma you seek to illustrate and find in everyone else, and put it there by rote and who knows what other means, if you cannot.

No. you've missed the crux of today's lesson: one cannot abandon what is inherent and indwelling--in mind, spirit and body--from the beginning. Fear of accepting, let alone acknowledging the truth and wisdom of the father, and Father is understandable. I sympathize. However, this was just about the last time I pick the pacifier up off the floor for you.

 

[hobelim]

You are all over the board and either deliberately do not understand what I said or are having reading comprehension problems. You are reducing what I said. I did not say that I have no proof. What I said was people have to have faith first.

I did not say a fly feels no pain. It should feel pain when its wings are ripped off or its legs are ripped off. Isn't that the purpose of making the fly believe you are more powerful, that you exist and do not like what its doing? Otherwise, ti will just go on its way and lay larvae in your food and bring germs into your environment. Your plant is a death trap. Bug spray is to cause pain and death. You can swat the fly or use sticky fly paper as a death trap.

As for the plant, it's seeking food. The fly and other insects are its food. So, my analogy is better than yours.

What I said was one has to have faith in the God of Christianity. What happens after that is he will reveal himself and you will find the truth.

Now, what is the point of the plant and its messages? It's isn't the same as how we feel pain, is it? Is that what you're claiming ha ha?

No, I read what you wrote perfectly.

When you write "However, there won't be any proof" it kind of makes people think that you don't have any proof. I mean, that is basically what you said, right?

Yes, people have to have faith first. They have to be willing to believe, to accept what they've been told and not to bother with the mumbojumbo of actually having evidence of things.

Why do you think someone like Trump does really well in a country like the US where 3/4 people are religious to some extent?

Because they've already had their minds open to accepting complete crap that someone told them and reinforces what they want to believe, and to easily reject that which is real because it's not convenient.

So flies might feel pain. Probably do, I mean pain is merely a communication from one part of the body to another. So what? It doesn't prove anything to do with any god in any way. It merely means their body communicates with its brain.



So, your argument is that first you have to have the faith to then believe in the god. That if you're not into faith, then you're never going to believe in god because, quite frankly, he's made up.

I mean, you have to be open to made up shit in order to be open to God. Is that more or less your argument?

Yes, what the fuck is the point of the whole message thing with flies and plants? It's your shitty argument here about pain proving the existence of God, somehow. I didn't get it.

I agree that God as defined by the OP, a God whose existence cannot be proven or verified, does not exist, but do you accept the possibility that there is a God that would account for esoteric biblical reports of a superior being whose existence is absolute that is unknown and unverifiable because people, believers and unbelievers alike, have misunderstood scripture creating a false image and likeness of God?

I mean if people gave a bizarre description of a criminal to a police sketch artist they could look and look for the perpetrator till the end of the world and never finds anyone who matches that false image and if they ever did it wouldn't be the right person.....

This one ^^ is crafty. He would have the believer-in-doubt misbelieve that the Word of God is something to be found only outside the mind and body--a physical object, same as a criminal who must be located by vague description. When in Truth, God's Word and Being lie within us, and without. Attempts to send Christians who want to believe again off on a wild goose chase/snipe hunt for Spirit and Faith where neither will ever be found are common enough attempts used to shake young minds free from God's Word. Perhaps Kindergarten is the place you should peddle your wares, although, the strength of young faith could surprise you.

I am not someone who claims that God is outside the body, thats a lie, you are a liar.

I used the comparison of a sketch artist to illustrate the fact that if you are looking for something based on a perversion or a misrepresentation of the facts consequent to your ignorance and failure to understand the figurative language of the prophets you will never find anything except for the delusions of a confused mind inspired by an unrestrained imagination.

If Christians want something to believe in, they will abandon the bullshit story that was crammed down their throats as children with threats of real and imaginary violence and read the scripture and make up their own minds about what is possible and impossible and what the authors were trying to convey during times when there was no such thing as freedom of expression.

Their best hope for finding fulfillment in the promise of eternal life for believing in what Jesus and complying with the instruction of divine law, according to the way that he taught, is if they were paying attention in grade school....

Twist and turn and burn. Revealing in you words, their interpretive self-portrait. You take issue with Christians and their beliefs, while attempting to define a dogma you seek to illustrate and find in everyone else, and put it there by rote and who knows what other means, if you cannot.

No. you've missed the crux of today's lesson: one cannot abandon what is inherent and indwelling--in mind, spirit and body--from the beginning. Fear of accepting, let alone acknowledging the truth and wisdom of the father, and Father is understandable. I sympathize. However, this was just about the last time I pick the pacifier up off the floor for you.

lol... Again, I am not taking issue with Christians or trying to take away anyones faith.

I am freeing them from the clutches of talking serpents like you.

Don't be surprised when you find out that your sorcery no longer has any effect on them just like it has absolutely no effect on me..


Brace yourself. Someone has made off with all of your possessions, but you will be the last to know.

 

[night_son]

No, I read what you wrote perfectly.

When you write "However, there won't be any proof" it kind of makes people think that you don't have any proof. I mean, that is basically what you said, right?

Yes, people have to have faith first. They have to be willing to believe, to accept what they've been told and not to bother with the mumbojumbo of actually having evidence of things.

Why do you think someone like Trump does really well in a country like the US where 3/4 people are religious to some extent?

Because they've already had their minds open to accepting complete crap that someone told them and reinforces what they want to believe, and to easily reject that which is real because it's not convenient.

So flies might feel pain. Probably do, I mean pain is merely a communication from one part of the body to another. So what? It doesn't prove anything to do with any god in any way. It merely means their body communicates with its brain.



So, your argument is that first you have to have the faith to then believe in the god. That if you're not into faith, then you're never going to believe in god because, quite frankly, he's made up.

I mean, you have to be open to made up shit in order to be open to God. Is that more or less your argument?

Yes, what the fuck is the point of the whole message thing with flies and plants? It's your shitty argument here about pain proving the existence of God, somehow. I didn't get it.

I agree that God as defined by the OP, a God whose existence cannot be proven or verified, does not exist, but do you accept the possibility that there is a God that would account for esoteric biblical reports of a superior being whose existence is absolute that is unknown and unverifiable because people, believers and unbelievers alike, have misunderstood scripture creating a false image and likeness of God?

I mean if people gave a bizarre description of a criminal to a police sketch artist they could look and look for the perpetrator till the end of the world and never finds anyone who matches that false image and if they ever did it wouldn't be the right person.....

This one ^^ is crafty. He would have the believer-in-doubt misbelieve that the Word of God is something to be found only outside the mind and body--a physical object, same as a criminal who must be located by vague description. When in Truth, God's Word and Being lie within us, and without. Attempts to send Christians who want to believe again off on a wild goose chase/snipe hunt for Spirit and Faith where neither will ever be found are common enough attempts used to shake young minds free from God's Word. Perhaps Kindergarten is the place you should peddle your wares, although, the strength of young faith could surprise you.

I am not someone who claims that God is outside the body, thats a lie, you are a liar.

I used the comparison of a sketch artist to illustrate the fact that if you are looking for something based on a perversion or a misrepresentation of the facts consequent to your ignorance and failure to understand the figurative language of the prophets you will never find anything except for the delusions of a confused mind inspired by an unrestrained imagination.

If Christians want something to believe in, they will abandon the bullshit story that was crammed down their throats as children with threats of real and imaginary violence and read the scripture and make up their own minds about what is possible and impossible and what the authors were trying to convey during times when there was no such thing as freedom of expression.

Their best hope for finding fulfillment in the promise of eternal life for believing in what Jesus and complying with the instruction of divine law, according to the way that he taught, is if they were paying attention in grade school....

Twist and turn and burn. Revealing in you words, their interpretive self-portrait. You take issue with Christians and their beliefs, while attempting to define a dogma you seek to illustrate and find in everyone else, and put it there by rote and who knows what other means, if you cannot.

No. you've missed the crux of today's lesson: one cannot abandon what is inherent and indwelling--in mind, spirit and body--from the beginning. Fear of accepting, let alone acknowledging the truth and wisdom of the father, and Father is understandable. I sympathize. However, this was just about the last time I pick the pacifier up off the floor for you.

lol... Again, I am not taking issue with Christians or trying to take away anyones faith.

I am freeing them from the clutches of talking serpents like you.

Don't be surprised when you find out that your poison no longer has any effect on them just like it has absolutely no effect on me..


You will be the last to know.

Thank you for the votive confidence, hobelim. Honestly, with respect, I cannot fully discern whether you're a luminary, one who seeks to purify the waters, or a distraction, out to darken them before sunset. I will not apologize for preemptive precaution, however, I enjoy reading your posts.