Is it really "illegal?"

[High_Gravity]

Let's work backward here OldUSAFSniper:

I've already pointed out that the so - called "legal" process as you demand to call it does not exist in many fact situations. You show me the relevant visa that applies to Guest Workers and we can end this debate right here and right now. Unless there is a proper procedure, there can, in no way, shape, fashion or form be an illegal alien based upon your own definition.

Insofar as conservatives and liberals go, you can leave me off your lists. Liberals have become the mouthpieces of the communist party while the social conservatives have become the top salesmen for the POLICE STATE as envisioned by the globalists. Personally, I'm not on either side, but watch those who accuse others of being liars ignore this paragraph.

As you said, a lot of people are rounded up and sent home. Had you READ THIS THREAD before giving your .02 cents worth, you'd get a sense about what deportation is all about. Deportation is the civil consequence for improper entry, which is not a crime, but a minor civil infraction. In most cases the civil infraction would not even be a issue if the United States created a Guest Worker program with no automatic path to citizenship.

Next, we come back to that pretext of sovereignty. Here's a cut and paste from the last time we addressed that question:

"Sovereignty is the quality of having supreme, independent authority over a geographic area, such as a territory."
Sovereignty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So I don't get to say who visits my house? Private employers don't have the right to hire who they want - be sovereign over their business?

Who do you wish to be sovereign in this context? The people or the government?

Sovereignty is about the country's authority over a geographic region NOT over the unalienable Rights of individuals. It's a world of difference and your misapplication is evidence that you care more about the POWER OF GOVERNMENT rather than the Liberties of the people. If our founding fathers summed up America in one word, it would be Liberty... the very thing you find so loathsome.

Okay, let's get one thing straight. As for the intracacies of immigration law: I don't really care. As long as someone comes here illegally and is subsequently sent packing, then they (the government) is doing what I want them to do. Although I would prefer they meet them at the border and keep them from entering in the first place.

It all boils down to the issue of whether or not a nation has the RIGHT to say who can enter into their geographical borders. The one enumerated duty of the federal government in the constitution is to protect its citizens. One way of doing that is by controlling its borders. A nation, THIS NATION, has the right and the DUTY to say who can come here and who cannot. Whether that is Hispanics, Romanians, Russians, or three-toed sloths it doesn't make any difference. When the nation passes a law to say that you have to abide by these certain steps and you don't, then illegal alien meet the agent from ICE. Jail them, take their DNA, fingerprints and picture and then send them back. If they try to come back, let them pick up trash along side the roadway for 60 days and then send them back.

Anyone who has read my posts on this forum KNOWS that I have no love for the federal government. It is bloated, expensive, wasteful, incompetent, and encroaches dangerously into personal freedoms. But in this arena, it should be aggressive and it should be effective. Barry and his boys are no better than the last President.

In this country, at least for now, the people ARE the government... well, they're supposed to be.

The more you write, the deeper you dig that hole.

The American people are the people that have the final say. Whether you like it or not - and make no mistake, I'm not all that amused by some of the decisions the American people make, they have spoken about the immigration situation. The American people hire, rent to, sell to and buy from the Hispanics regardless of the laws that the American people have deemed to be unconstitutional.

The difference between you and I is that I understand the difference between an unalienable Right versus the geographic territory the government has power over.

The reality is, the anti - immigrant lobby has gotten TRILLIONS of dollars allocated to destroy your Liberties under the guise of fighting so - called "illegal" immigration. You're only pissed at me because you can't stop it and I'd rather have a Guest Worker living next door and keep my Liberties than to live in a absolute POLICE STATE where everybody has the Mark of the Beast and begs government's permisssion to allow them to make their every movement.

How do your Skinhead and KKK buddies feel about your stance on open borders for all?

 

[Liability]

This is the typical redneck bullshit that has destroyed this thread. This dumb ass can't even spell bleach. You know it's a while since they done any laundry.

Irony is beyond ironic.

 

[High_Gravity]

This is the typical redneck bullshit that has destroyed this thread. This dumb ass can't even spell bleach. You know it's a while since they done any laundry.

Irony is beyond ironic.

Now now, Duddleydolt is an inbred white supremist who learned English from illegals from Guatamala.

 

[BuddyColt]

On the surface, it seems like a rather simple issue: Immigrate legally. Right Buddy? You aren't advocating FOR illegal activities, are you? I am sure you mean well. So do the rest of us. On your first post, you say that nobody is guilty until proven innocent, which would imply even YOU might think there is a possibility...that illegals are criminals. Or did I miss something? Anyway, I do want to segue here: The INS enforces Federal laws. Prior to 2003, it was a a branch of the the US Dept. of Justice. That should say something right there. Right now, this issue isn't as clear as it should be. Local Police officers are being advised to avoid focusing on immigration scofflaws "to enhance public safety", as "immigrant" (?) community residents might see them as deportation agents.... State law enforcement officers used to cooperate fully with federal officials. Illegal immigration IS a federal offense, but it isn't necessarily a local criminal infraction ...That is the problem here, WE all have to iron this out. I don't want cops ignoring illegal aliens and I don't want this problem of 12 million illegals swept under the rug because it's expedient politicaly or otherwise.

MaryL. I don't know what you're getting at, so hear me out and please read everything here. It will be WELL worth your time.

In a de jure (lawful) constitutional Republic such as we are guaranteed in the Constitution, every person is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law by a jury of their peers.

This is something we don't want to do for people that are being labeled as "illegal" aliens. The first problem here is that repeating a lie can make it appear true. For instance, the liberals call semi automatic firearms "assault weapons." In reality an assault weapon is a firearm capable of semi automatic and fully automatic fire. A semi auto look-a-like rifle is simply NOT an assault weapon, but the lie has set precedents that have made life a living hell for a lot of people.

Ditto for immigration. I went to work for an immigration law office because I had to get all sides of the issue. What I've stated on this thread is not my opinion, it is the way the law is interpreted and enforced. The Executive Office for Immigration Review reviews, interprets the statutes and applies the laws in regards to the immigration laws. It is overseen by the Attorney General, appointed by the president and working within the Dept. of Justice.

The problem here is that immigration is not illegal; it is only improper. We demand a "proper" way to enter, but for MILLIONS, we do not provide that proper mechanism. Let me explain:

We have a host of visas. All of the specify a type of person they apply to (temporary agricultural worker, student, etc.):

Types of Visas for Temporary Visitors

For MILLIONS those visas don't apply. So, the Guest Worker must either LIE or they simply cross the border and work. The visa system is half a century old and simply doesn't anticipate the reasons people come here. Furthermore, those people do NOT want to become citizens. I know this is hard to understand, but the Hispanics do not have a comprehension of our laws that you could relate to.

In Mexico, for example, avoiding the cops and playing games is a cost of doing business. The Mexican government prints comic books, teaching the Hispanics how to avoid detection by our authorities. Once here, avoiding the system and having to pay the fines is just a game, not the kind of activity that rises to "criminal" intent. So, how do we handle the issue? The way you answer that is to answer what happened in the past. That kind of testifies against my critics on this board. So, let me repeat something to you:

Several months ago talk show host, Neal Boortz, told his audience about a historical study he did. Boortz divided our nation's history into NINE time periods of 25 years (from the start of our nation to the current time.) Each of those 25 year periods represents the working lifetime of a person.

According to Boortz, he credited the Republicans and their tax initiatives for America's most prosperous of those time periods. And Boortz said that between 1982 and 2007 was the time period when America had the most jobs, we made the most money, paid the fewest taxes and had the most in assets.

In 1986, Newswatch Magazine reported that, according to official immigration authorities, the United States had an estimated 10 MILLION people in the United States without papers AND an additional TWO MILLION coming in each year. AND between 1986 and 2000, the United States granted SEVEN AMNESTIES!

What I want to know is HOW did the United States have its most prosperous years in an era where we started out with 10 MILLION people here without papers, two million more entering annually, 10 percent unemployment, "open borders," AND SEVEN AMNESTIES and lived the best years of our lives and reduced unemployment by more than 50 percent? BTW, the relative numbers haven't changed in population growth nor in the numbers of people here without papers. Okay guys, we need an answer."

Despite all the numbers, the number of undocumented Guest Workers has not changed dramatically in a quarter of a century. It should tell you: they don't want to become citizens. So, why not create that class of Guest Workers without an automatic path to citizenship and those who come here, so with the knowledge that they nor any potential child will automatically become a U.S. citizen? Why this constant pissing match with allegations "they broke our laws" when the evidence is, they never intended to break any freaking law. According to the Socialist Security Administration, 75 percent of those in the U.S. without papers apply for Taxpayer Identification Numbers and pay the taxes. If they're willingly paying taxes and they don't have a criminal record, where is the proof they intended to break a law?

WE hang a Welcome mat out that invites the poor here; we talk this game about Liberty and unalienable Rights, but once we take people up on the offer, we have National Socialists pitching a hissy fit with the inference that only citizens are due unalienable Rights. You can't stop immigrants from coming. You can pass draconian laws that will ultimately result in tyranny followed by amnesty, but you cannot stop immigration.

The better avenue is to regulate it. The methods being used today are costing the lives of people on YOUR side of this issue. I should know. I came from YOUR side of the political fence and nearly lost my life due to one of those laws the anti - immigrants passed... and you cannot understand that bad laws that cost lives motivate me to speak out. Look, if you want to petition Congress and declare war against Mexico, more power to you. If you want to take my Liberties or the Liberties of others, I will fight you to the bitter end - and I don't give a damn who the other group is I have to defend nor whether I like them or not.

My response to you was being lost in the maze of posts by one person in three personages.

 

[High_Gravity]

On the surface, it seems like a rather simple issue: Immigrate legally. Right Buddy? You aren't advocating FOR illegal activities, are you? I am sure you mean well. So do the rest of us. On your first post, you say that nobody is guilty until proven innocent, which would imply even YOU might think there is a possibility...that illegals are criminals. Or did I miss something? Anyway, I do want to segue here: The INS enforces Federal laws. Prior to 2003, it was a a branch of the the US Dept. of Justice. That should say something right there. Right now, this issue isn't as clear as it should be. Local Police officers are being advised to avoid focusing on immigration scofflaws "to enhance public safety", as "immigrant" (?) community residents might see them as deportation agents.... State law enforcement officers used to cooperate fully with federal officials. Illegal immigration IS a federal offense, but it isn't necessarily a local criminal infraction ...That is the problem here, WE all have to iron this out. I don't want cops ignoring illegal aliens and I don't want this problem of 12 million illegals swept under the rug because it's expedient politicaly or otherwise.

MaryL. I don't know what you're getting at, so hear me out and please read everything here. It will be WELL worth your time.

In a de jure (lawful) constitutional Republic such as we are guaranteed in the Constitution, every person is presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law by a jury of their peers.

This is something we don't want to do for people that are being labeled as "illegal" aliens. The first problem here is that repeating a lie can make it appear true. For instance, the liberals call semi automatic firearms "assault weapons." In reality an assault weapon is a firearm capable of semi automatic and fully automatic fire. A semi auto look-a-like rifle is simply NOT an assault weapon, but the lie has set precedents that have made life a living hell for a lot of people.

Ditto for immigration. I went to work for an immigration law office because I had to get all sides of the issue. What I've stated on this thread is not my opinion, it is the way the law is interpreted and enforced. The Executive Office for Immigration Review reviews, interprets the statutes and applies the laws in regards to the immigration laws. It is overseen by the Attorney General, appointed by the president and working within the Dept. of Justice.

The problem here is that immigration is not illegal; it is only improper. We demand a "proper" way to enter, but for MILLIONS, we do not provide that proper mechanism. Let me explain:

We have a host of visas. All of the specify a type of person they apply to (temporary agricultural worker, student, etc.):

Types of Visas for Temporary Visitors

For MILLIONS those visas don't apply. So, the Guest Worker must either LIE or they simply cross the border and work. The visa system is half a century old and simply doesn't anticipate the reasons people come here. Furthermore, those people do NOT want to become citizens. I know this is hard to understand, but the Hispanics do not have a comprehension of our laws that you could relate to.

In Mexico, for example, avoiding the cops and playing games is a cost of doing business. The Mexican government prints comic books, teaching the Hispanics how to avoid detection by our authorities. Once here, avoiding the system and having to pay the fines is just a game, not the kind of activity that rises to "criminal" intent. So, how do we handle the issue? The way you answer that is to answer what happened in the past. That kind of testifies against my critics on this board. So, let me repeat something to you:

Several months ago talk show host, Neal Boortz, told his audience about a historical study he did. Boortz divided our nation's history into NINE time periods of 25 years (from the start of our nation to the current time.) Each of those 25 year periods represents the working lifetime of a person.

According to Boortz, he credited the Republicans and their tax initiatives for America's most prosperous of those time periods. And Boortz said that between 1982 and 2007 was the time period when America had the most jobs, we made the most money, paid the fewest taxes and had the most in assets.

In 1986, Newswatch Magazine reported that, according to official immigration authorities, the United States had an estimated 10 MILLION people in the United States without papers AND an additional TWO MILLION coming in each year. AND between 1986 and 2000, the United States granted SEVEN AMNESTIES!

What I want to know is HOW did the United States have its most prosperous years in an era where we started out with 10 MILLION people here without papers, two million more entering annually, 10 percent unemployment, "open borders," AND SEVEN AMNESTIES and lived the best years of our lives and reduced unemployment by more than 50 percent? BTW, the relative numbers haven't changed in population growth nor in the numbers of people here without papers. Okay guys, we need an answer."

Despite all the numbers, the number of undocumented Guest Workers has not changed dramatically in a quarter of a century. It should tell you: they don't want to become citizens. So, why not create that class of Guest Workers without an automatic path to citizenship and those who come here, so with the knowledge that they nor any potential child will automatically become a U.S. citizen? Why this constant pissing match with allegations "they broke our laws" when the evidence is, they never intended to break any freaking law. According to the Socialist Security Administration, 75 percent of those in the U.S. without papers apply for Taxpayer Identification Numbers and pay the taxes. If they're willingly paying taxes and they don't have a criminal record, where is the proof they intended to break a law?

WE hang a Welcome mat out that invites the poor here; we talk this game about Liberty and unalienable Rights, but once we take people up on the offer, we have National Socialists pitching a hissy fit with the inference that only citizens are due unalienable Rights. You can't stop immigrants from coming. You can pass draconian laws that will ultimately result in tyranny followed by amnesty, but you cannot stop immigration.

The better avenue is to regulate it. The methods being used today are costing the lives of people on YOUR side of this issue. I should know. I came from YOUR side of the political fence and nearly lost my life due to one of those laws the anti - immigrants passed... and you cannot understand that bad laws that cost lives motivate me to speak out. Look, if you want to petition Congress and declare war against Mexico, more power to you. If you want to take my Liberties or the Liberties of others, I will fight you to the bitter end - and I don't give a damn who the other group is I have to defend nor whether I like them or not.

My response to you was being lost in the maze of posts by one person in three personages.

Put the crack pipe down when I'm talkin to you woman.

 

[Unkotare]

BloodyDolt, are you an attorney? Are you a tough-guy? Are you a fucking psycho?

 

[High_Gravity]

BloodyDolt, are you an attorney? Are you a tough-guy? Are you a fucking psycho?

He is a La Raza Freedom Fighter/KKK Member/Nation of Islam/Homosexual Rights Activist.

 

[Unkotare]

BloodyDolt, are you an attorney? Are you a tough-guy? Are you a fucking psycho?

He is a La Raza Freedom Fighter/KKK Member/Nation of Islam/Homosexual Rights Activist.

And that's just during the weekends!

 

[Liability]

BloodyDolt, are you an attorney? Are you a tough-guy? Are you a fucking psycho?

He is a La Raza Freedom Fighter/KKK Member/Nation of Islam/Homosexual Rights Activist.

La Raza is Spanish for "fucking cock bites." Right?

 

[High_Gravity]

BloodyDolt, are you an attorney? Are you a tough-guy? Are you a fucking psycho?

He is a La Raza Freedom Fighter/KKK Member/Nation of Islam/Homosexual Rights Activist.

La Raza is Spanish for "fucking cock bites." Right?

Yes.

 

[MaryL]

I bring up the legal case of INS v. Lopez-Mendoza, 468 U. S. 1032, 1038 (1984). Criminal or not, Civil offense or not, the defendant was DEPORTED and that was held as a civil issue, and deportation was held not to be punitive....

 

[Zoom-boing]

Don't know when buttercup got banned but tff that he completely and totally ignores Liability in the last several pages. Poor, poor little cave dwelling buttercup.

 

[MaryL]

BuddyColt was banned? Saw that one coming. All those red stars, but I feel bad for the guy. This guy made me search long and hard to support my beliefs. Hate to say it, we need people like him...

 

[Catalist]

BuddyColt was banned? Saw that one coming. All those red stars, but I feel bad for the guy. This guy made me search long and hard to support my beliefs. Hate to say it, we need people like him...

Apparently, prior to Wednesday Buddy Colt sent me a PM, and challenged me to move to another site to debate illegal immigration. He stated he had been banned from many sites for his views on illegal immigration. I wrote him a PM indicating, I was not that interested in the topic, and that government has funded $120,000,000 for a "bug zapper" type radar, crowd control device that is being tested in a mobile version in Afghanistan. The intent is to install this "electronic fence" across our border.

Buddy Colt was mostly big talk, but when I tried to send the PM, it indicated Buddy was no longer available. It has been my experience that those who make a lot of noise supporting illegals are quite close to the illegal community, and mainly want to keep tax dollars flowing to illegals. People like this are supporting freeloaders and milking tax payers. I compliment moderators for banning Buddy Colt.

The last thing we need in an American website is foreigners pumping propaganda into our discussions to advocate their freeloading politics. This guy was trying to turn a law enforcement problem into a human rights issue. Good riddance.

 

[MaryL]

BuddyColt was banned? Saw that one coming. All those red stars, but I feel bad for the guy. This guy made me search long and hard to support my beliefs. Hate to say it, we need people like him...

Apparently, prior to Wednesday Buddy Colt sent me a PM, and challenged me to move to another site to debate illegal immigration. I wrote a PM indicating, I was not that interested in the topic, and that government has funded $120,000,000 for a "bug zapper" type radar, crowd control device that is being tested in a mobile version in Afghanistan. The intent is to install this "electronic fence" across our border.

Buddy Colt was mostly big talk, but when I tried to send the PM, it indicated Buddy was no longer available. It has been my experience that those who make a lot of noise on this subject are quite close to the illegal community, and mainly want to keep tax dollars flowing to illegals. People like this are supporting freeloaders and milking tax payers. I compliment moderators for banning Buddy Colt. This guy was trying to turn a law enforcement problem into a human rights issue. Good riddance.

I didn't have much use for him either. I looked long and hard about illegals. Buddy Colt did that. Kudos for him. I learned Illegal aliens get deported even if this is a civil issue, SO that doesn't matter here one way or the other. Illegals get deported, one way or the other. It makes little difference what they are classified as. His point here is forever lost...Whatever THAT means.

 

[Catalist]

BloodyDolt, are you an attorney? Are you a tough-guy? Are you a fucking psycho?

He is a La Raza Freedom Fighter/KKK Member/Nation of Islam/Homosexual Rights Activist.

La Raza is Spanish for "fucking cock bites." Right?

La Raza is a legally registered lobbyist in the United States that promotes illegal immigration. Please do not take these illegals lightly, 12,000,000 of them have already invaded the United States after we were kind enough to allow them to enter our nation as migrant workers. They not only think they are entitled to a piece of the American pie, they are demanding Anglos leave among other things.

This in spite of the fact that in the 1840s after the Mexican-American War we forgave their debts and paid them $18,000,000 for our southern border as it now stands. One could make a pretty good argument that these wetbacks are treasonous to America.

We need to get American military out of Afghanistan and down to our southern border. Mexican drug cartels have killed 50,000 since Filip Calderon became president of Mexico, and their problems are spilling into the United States. Incarceration with deportation is the logical answer.

 

[Unkotare]

You are that guy who was banned before, aren't you? Repeating the same posts over and over, obsessed with posting oversized pics, it all seems very familiar. Maybe some mod should run an IP check.

 

[Catalist]

BuddyColt was banned? Saw that one coming. All those red stars, but I feel bad for the guy. This guy made me search long and hard to support my beliefs. Hate to say it, we need people like him...

Apparently, prior to Wednesday Buddy Colt sent me a PM, and challenged me to move to another site to debate illegal immigration. I wrote a PM indicating, I was not that interested in the topic, and that government has funded $120,000,000 for a "bug zapper" type radar, crowd control device that is being tested in a mobile version in Afghanistan. The intent is to install this "electronic fence" across our border.

Buddy Colt was mostly big talk, but when I tried to send the PM, it indicated Buddy was no longer available. It has been my experience that those who make a lot of noise on this subject are quite close to the illegal community, and mainly want to keep tax dollars flowing to illegals. People like this are supporting freeloaders and milking tax payers. I compliment moderators for banning Buddy Colt. This guy was trying to turn a law enforcement problem into a human rights issue. Good riddance.

I didn't have much use for him either. I looked long and hard about illegals. Buddy Colt did that. Kudos for him. I learned Illegal aliens get deported even if this is a civil issue, SO that doesn't matter here one way or the other. Illegals get deported, one way or the other. It makes little difference what they are classified as. His point here is forever lost...Whatever THAT means.

The government has solutions to illegal immigration in the works. Only two facts need be remembered here. First, illegal immigrants entered the United States illegally. They were given no physical or mental examinations, there were no criminal record searches, they were not required to learn English, and they bring their Mexican slums with them.

Second, these 12,000,000 invaders cost American taxpayers $113 BILLION a year for education, welfare and health care. There is no such thing as "cheap labor." We are spending nearly as much on illegals as we do on the War in Afghanistan. We simply can not afford these freeloaders any more.

We have this problem because we have not cleaned house as we used to do under Eisenhower, Truman, and Hoover. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback Bottom line; call Orkin and get these filthy cock roaches out of our country. One does not need a four year degree to understand this law enforcement issue. This issue is a political distraction, America has plans to clean house permanently.

 

[Unkotare]

How long until the mods figure out who you are?

 

[MaryL]

Catalist, you have solutions. I have solutions. We agree. But our collective Government? I think they have something else in mind. I stopped voting years ago. They stopped listening to US long ago. I have thought about this, about seeking a lawyer for a class action suit against the federal government for their ineptitude enforcing federal immigration laws. That deserves some thought, don't you think?