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My mother. She was deaf, so didn't have a drivers license. She had her SS number memorized. She lived in a small city her whole life, with good public transportation. Her bank knew her, so didn't hassle her for ID. She was pissed off that she couldn't rent videos after I bought her a VCR, since they required an ID. I had to go and get her the card that allowed her to rent videos. If she had to go to Motor Vehicles, which was the next city over, in an industrial area, which didn't have much in the way of public transportation, she'd have had quite a hassle. She first have to go to NYC to get her birth certificate, have to go to a notary since all she had was utility and tax bills as identification to get the birth certificate, and then have someone drive her to Motor Vehicles to wait a few hours to get a state photo id. I'd have probably have had to made the 4 hour drive, and spend a day or two going through the red tape, since most of these agencies don't have people on hand that know ASL.
IOWs, it would have been an incredible burden in time, energy, and cost, for someone who lived in a precinct where she knew or was known by most of the poll workers. Lucky she voted in every election until she passed on at the age of 87.
That is great and all, but who's fault is that? It is hers for being lazy and not getting an ID. I have to get to the DMV and gather all my records also to deal with my life, and make sure i have proper ID. She is your mom, why don't you give her a ride or help her? What happens when the people at her bank retire? Does she just say the hell with her money? How do the people at the voting place now she is who she is?
Yeah, life is fucking tough, and some things suck. I don't want to be bothered with going to the DMV and getting my ID. Do you know how many hours of my life i have wasted in that place? But i want a job, and i want to drive, and i want to be able to buy alcohol without hoping the guy who knows who I am doesn't retire or get fired. Tell your mom it is just something she needs to do if she wants to vote. I am quite sure, from your own story, the woman has dealt with much harder things. Seriously, how hard is it to get to a notary? Look, it is the bank, many of them have notaries and they are all over the place. Oh look, town hall, they might have a notary in there. Oh look lawyer's offices, I bet they might have a notary or would know where one close by is.
Seriously, tell your mom to grow up a little. It just is not that hard.
I couldnt agree more.....I approve this message
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't states that require voter IDs offer to provide one free of charge? If true, that rather destroys your entire argument, wouldn't you agree?
As i mentioned in several postings... the cost to obtain those "Free ID's" are not , so no it doesn't. Futher I also mentioned, that as Haper is the standard even in the recent Indiana case where Voter ID's were upheld, its very clear if there is a "fee" involved its a "poll tax" .
Judge Stevens in the Indiana Case...
"is mitigated by the fact that eligible voters without photo identification may cast provisional ballots that will be counted if they execute the required affidavit at the circuit court clerks office. "
This is why I mentioned in my original thread "with the exception of Indiana" because even voters in Indiana without Voter ID may case a ballot and have it counted so that discounts the "poll tax" argument.
Here are the acceptable voter ID's in Georgia
Georgia drivers license, even if expired
ID card issued by the state of Georgia or the federal government
Free voter ID card issued by the state or county
U.S. passport
Valid employee ID card containing a photograph from any branch, department, agency, or entity of the U.S. Government, Georgia, or any county, municipality, board, authority or other entity of this state
Valid U.S. military identification card
Valid tribal photo ID
And here is what happens if you don't have one.
If you show up to vote and you do not have one of the acceptable forms of photo identification, you can still vote a provisional ballot. You will have up to three days after the election to present appropriate photo identification at your county registrar's office in order for your provisional ballot to be counted.
15th Amendment
Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
19th Amendment
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
24th Amendment
Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.
Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
Harper v. Virginia Board of Elections
It is argued that a State may exact fees from citizens for many different kinds of licenses; that, if it can demand from all an equal fee for a driver's license, [n5] it can demand from all an equal poll tax for voting. But we must remember that the interest of the State, when it comes to voting, is limited to the power to fix qualifications. Wealth, like race, creed, or color, is not germane to one's ability to participate intelligently in the electoral process. Lines drawn on the basis of wealth or property, like those of race (Korematsu v. United States, 323 U.S. 214, 216), are traditionally disfavored. See Edwards v. California, 314 U.S. 160, 184-185 (Jackson, J., concurring); Griffin v. Illinois, 351 U.S. 12; Douglas v. California, 372 U.S. 353. To introduce wealth or payment of a fee as a measure of a voter's qualifications is to introduce a capricious or irrelevant factor.
Harper v. Virginia Board of Elections
After consideration of these voter ID laws I have come to the conclusion that with the exception of those states that allow for the exception of voters to vote such as Indiana does by affidavit and provisional ballot , the process by which a voter has to pay for documentation for the sole purpose for obtaining a state approved ID to vote is on its a face a "poll tax". If for example these state who wish a form of ID for a voter to identify themselves in a election to combat voter fraud which seems a little bit of a stretch in my humble opinion given the fact that data suggests the instances of fraud do not justify these laws, then that state would put in place a voter ID where the voter at registration would use the registration card as the voter ID, otherwise why bother to register to vote if additional state ID is required. In addtion if the instances of fraud justified the need for these laws to such a degree then the question is, why now?, why not in the last election, or the one before that or the one before that? I seem to recall a very close election in 2000 where the words "fraud" were being tossed around often especially in Fl. and yet we seemed to survive that with little problem. While many might disagree with me on this one and as they are entitled to, it is my humble opinion these laws serve no useful purpose if they keep on American from voting who is entitled to do so because that American cannot afford the proper documentation.
Not really. I think the only thing I have used my birth certificate for in the last 30 years was to get a passport. I have never had an employer request it. I think I used it for my first driver's license. If I am required to obtain a document from the state for the sole purpose of obtaining another document from the state just to be able to vote, then there should be no charge.
I understand the intent is to prevent fraud. I am fine with that. However, there should be no unintentional effect of preventing or even discouraging people from voting. If the state wishes to acheive the former, it should do so in a manner that will not create the latter. After all, we want people to vote..... don't we?
Have you not applied for a job lately? If so then your employer BY LAW has to fill out an I-9 document on which you have to prove your identity and your legal right to work in this country. That can be established by a passport...which establishes both...or with a driver's license or other State issued ID to prove who you are and a birth certificate to prove that you were born here. If your employer DIDN'T do this then they are breaking the law and will be in a world of hurt if their records are ever audited by the INS.
I don't have to apply for a job. What has this to do with my righ to vote?
My point is that it's almost impossible to navigate other parts of the modern world without showing proper ID yet liberals find it reprehensible that proper ID should be shown in order to do what is arguably the most important thing that we DO as citizens.
My point is that it's almost impossible to navigate other parts of the modern world without showing proper ID yet liberals find it reprehensible that proper ID should be shown in order to do what is arguably the most important thing that we DO as citizens.
Getting a job isn't a right. Voting is. So you want some fascist police state to require you to prove you have a right???? What bullshit. Do you really think all those widows living in assisted living communities have State Required Papers?
Or to get married.. or to obtain a soc card.. or to obtain other things an employer or bank or whatever would need... and when the floodgate is opened, there is always something else that can be said that is needed to obtain the things to then obtain the free ID...
There was an old lady....
I've been married for almost 40 years and have no plans to do it again soon. I already have a social security card. I have a passport. As I said, I have yet to have an employer ask for one, or a bank for that matter. Perhaps you should go to another bank. So right now, I don't need one. The point is that if I have to get a copy of my birth certificate just so I can vote, then I shouldn't have to pay for it.
Unless, of course, the intent is to discourage me from voting. But that is not the intent. The intent is to prevent fraud and just because I don't have the money to pay for a birth certificate doesn't make me guilty of fraud. Does it? Should I not be allowed to vote because I can't afford those few dollars?
You failed to mention whether or not you have a driver's license.
Move to Georgia and vote.
Here are the acceptable voter ID's in Georgia
Georgia drivers license, even if expired
ID card issued by the state of Georgia or the federal government
Free voter ID card issued by the state or county
U.S. passport
Valid employee ID card containing a photograph from any branch, department, agency, or entity of the U.S. Government, Georgia, or any county, municipality, board, authority or other entity of this state
Valid U.S. military identification card
Valid tribal photo ID
Have you not applied for a job lately? If so then your employer BY LAW has to fill out an I-9 document on which you have to prove your identity and your legal right to work in this country. That can be established by a passport...which establishes both...or with a driver's license or other State issued ID to prove who you are and a birth certificate to prove that you were born here. If your employer DIDN'T do this then they are breaking the law and will be in a world of hurt if their records are ever audited by the INS.
I don't have to apply for a job. What has this to do with my righ to vote?
You had stated that you hadn't had an employer ask for a birth certificate in the last 30 years which made me curious as to whether you'd been self employed for all that time or simply worked for an employer or employers that didn't comply with the law requiring them to verify that their employees were all legally able to work here in the US. I'm in the restaurant business and I've been taking I-9 information for twenty plus years now. If you don't have proper ID...you can't get a job. My point is that it's almost impossible to navigate other parts of the modern world without showing proper ID yet liberals find it reprehensible that proper ID should be shown in order to do what is arguably the most important thing that we DO as citizens.
As i mentioned in several postings... the cost to obtain those "Free ID's" are not , so no it doesn't. Futher I also mentioned, that as Haper is the standard even in the recent Indiana case where Voter ID's were upheld, its very clear if there is a "fee" involved its a "poll tax" .
Judge Stevens in the Indiana Case...
"is mitigated by the fact that eligible voters without photo identification may cast provisional ballots that will be counted if they execute the required affidavit at the circuit court clerks office. "
This is why I mentioned in my original thread "with the exception of Indiana" because even voters in Indiana without Voter ID may case a ballot and have it counted so that discounts the "poll tax" argument.
Here are the acceptable voter ID's in Georgia
Georgia drivers license, even if expired
ID card issued by the state of Georgia or the federal government
Free voter ID card issued by the state or county
U.S. passport
Valid employee ID card containing a photograph from any branch, department, agency, or entity of the U.S. Government, Georgia, or any county, municipality, board, authority or other entity of this state
Valid U.S. military identification card
Valid tribal photo ID
And here is what happens if you don't have one.
If you show up to vote and you do not have one of the acceptable forms of photo identification, you can still vote a provisional ballot. You will have up to three days after the election to present appropriate photo identification at your county registrar's office in order for your provisional ballot to be counted.
And what form of ID do you need to get a "Free Voter ID card"?
My point is that it's almost impossible to navigate other parts of the modern world without showing proper ID yet liberals find it reprehensible that proper ID should be shown in order to do what is arguably the most important thing that we DO as citizens.
Getting a job isn't a right. Voting is. So you want some fascist police state to require you to prove you have a right???? What bullshit. Do you really think all those widows living in assisted living communities have State Required Papers?
I don't have to apply for a job. What has this to do with my righ to vote?
You had stated that you hadn't had an employer ask for a birth certificate in the last 30 years which made me curious as to whether you'd been self employed for all that time or simply worked for an employer or employers that didn't comply with the law requiring them to verify that their employees were all legally able to work here in the US. I'm in the restaurant business and I've been taking I-9 information for twenty plus years now. If you don't have proper ID...you can't get a job. My point is that it's almost impossible to navigate other parts of the modern world without showing proper ID yet liberals find it reprehensible that proper ID should be shown in order to do what is arguably the most important thing that we DO as citizens.
No. Employed all of that time, by multiple employers. No one has ever asked for a copy of my birth certificate. Perhaps they wanted it when I went into the military, but that was so long ago I really don't recall. But no employer has ever asked for it.
My SS card, yes. My drivers licence, yes. Heck, even my college transcripts. Never my birth certificate.
My point is that voting is arguably the most important thing we do as citizens. So we have the same point. It is the most basic right any of us has. That is what makes this a government of "we the people". So don't charge someone to do it. If the state is going to require something specifically for voting, there should be no charge for it. That is it. I don't think that is being unreasonable.
You had stated that you hadn't had an employer ask for a birth certificate in the last 30 years which made me curious as to whether you'd been self employed for all that time or simply worked for an employer or employers that didn't comply with the law requiring them to verify that their employees were all legally able to work here in the US. I'm in the restaurant business and I've been taking I-9 information for twenty plus years now. If you don't have proper ID...you can't get a job. My point is that it's almost impossible to navigate other parts of the modern world without showing proper ID yet liberals find it reprehensible that proper ID should be shown in order to do what is arguably the most important thing that we DO as citizens.
No. Employed all of that time, by multiple employers. No one has ever asked for a copy of my birth certificate. Perhaps they wanted it when I went into the military, but that was so long ago I really don't recall. But no employer has ever asked for it.
My SS card, yes. My drivers licence, yes. Heck, even my college transcripts. Never my birth certificate.
My point is that voting is arguably the most important thing we do as citizens. So we have the same point. It is the most basic right any of us has. That is what makes this a government of "we the people". So don't charge someone to do it. If the state is going to require something specifically for voting, there should be no charge for it. That is it. I don't think that is being unreasonable.
Your SS card is an acceptable replacement for a birth certificate on an I-9 form. So what you're admitting is that you've had to show valid ID in order to be employed which is my point. If you've traveled outside of the US then you'd have been asked for a birth certificate to obtain a passport. Any travel outside the US?
By the way...the notion that "we the people" shouldn't have to pay for ID is rather amusing since it's "we the people" who pay the taxes that would pay for the free ID that you don't think we the people should have to pay for.
Every State that requires ID to vote gives a free ID. Bam, an entire thread destroyed in one simple sentence. Sucks, doesn't it?
No it doesn't because, I as I mentioned the "cost to obtain the documentation: needed for those so called "Free ID's " , so keep going.
also in Harper..
We conclude that a State violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment whenever it makes the affluence of the voter or payment of any fee an electoral standard.
You stated it, but didn't back it up. The 14th blocks taxes to prevent people from voting, not from living. Clearly the left only care about this issue to take it to such ridiculous intents because you're 100% crystal clear which is the party of fraud. You are.
For the sole purpose of voting the costs to get the documentation are fees in my humble opinion and the things you mentioned are ancillary to those fees and are therefor not a part of voting. Take for example a person who would otherwise not need a BC for another other reason than to obtain it to get the ID to vote, and yet has voted in prior elections and it is well established that person is a citizen, that person is paying a "poll tax" in order to vote as is the case with the Ms Applewhite in PA.
OK, I'd be willing to compromise. A person requests a birth certificate they must indicate on the form whether (A) it is for the sole purpose of obtaining a voter qualifying ID, or (B) Whether it will be used for that or any other purpose needed by the individual. If they indicate (A), the the birth certificate is free. If they indicate (B) then normal costs are charged.
Printed in large, bold, red text across the top is:
"For Use in Voter Identification Processing Only"
Now, when the person uses the Birth Certificate for obtaining a voter approved ID, the issuing agency of ID retains and shreds the birth certificate if it has the red printing on top. If on the other hand the birth certificate had the proper signatures and raised seals, but no red printing - then it is returned to the holder.
Birth Certificates with the red printing would not be legal as:
- Proof of employability for I-9 purposes,
- Proof of age for admittance to any public school (primary, secondary, or college) that accepts federal money in any way,
- Is not an acceptable proof of identity/age for any sports team (football, little league, soccer, etc.),
- Would not be proof of identify for induction into any branch of the armed services,
- Would not be proof of identify for hiring for any public position.
>>>>
My point is that it's almost impossible to navigate other parts of the modern world without showing proper ID yet liberals find it reprehensible that proper ID should be shown in order to do what is arguably the most important thing that we DO as citizens.
Getting a job isn't a right. Voting is. So you want some fascist police state to require you to prove you have a right???? What bullshit. Do you really think all those widows living in assisted living communities have State Required Papers?
No, getting a job is a "priority". It's what you do when you become an adult. The whole notion that requiring that people show valid ID to vote means that we've become a "fascist police state" is laughable. The Democratic Party requires that people show proper ID to attend their convention...yet somehow rationalizes that people shouldn't have a valid form of ID to cast a vote for the people that they've nominated. It's farce.
My assertion is not false and cannot simply be discounted because it does not sit well with your argument. For all intents and purposes, there is no one that does not fit under one of those categories. If you do not have ONE SINGLE utility bill (essentially no one fits in that category) have no bank account no car whatsoever and no ID then I have no idea how you even function if the real world let alone even make it to the poll to vote. Your argument is that ancillary requirements to get an ID are somehow fees (but driving to the poll is not even though there really is little difference) and then discount any other method that is supplied is rather asinine.http://www.azsos.gov/election/forms/voterregistrationform.pdf
There is the voter registration form in Arizona and you can even do so online however in Arizona for example you need to establish citizenship in order to do so, which also is a fee should the person not have a documentation for the purpose of doing so and is a "poll tax" as well. My issue is NOT with the ID not is it with the registration it is with the fees needed to obtain the documentaion to register and get the ID's needed to vote. In so doing these fees qualify as a poll tax under Harper because it is a fee associated with voting.
Your assertion that someone that if they don't have A , then bring B, or C is a false one in that not all people meet those requirments and are therefor subject to those fees. The tax or fee lies in the cost to obtain the documentation for the purpose of voting, even if that fee is .5 cents to make a copy of ones utility bill.
Then there is the even if it is 5 cents to make a copy hogwash. Bring the original. They dont actually take the bill from you; they simply verify your identity. Saying something like that is reeeeealy reaching and no different than the other poster asking about the nanny and the gas to get to the poll. IOW, pointless. Not only that, but obtaining the documents is on you to be honest. If you cannot take the time to actually get the documents to vote, then you simply do not care about voting and I dont have the time to bother with you.
It interests me that we seem to have no problem requiring IDs for a thousand other rights. From the right to bear arms and even to the freedom of speech IDs can and are required to exercise in many capacities. Each right is different in where the line is drawn but simply requiring proof in order to verify your identity is not crossing the line. In the contrary, it protects MY right to not have my vote stolen by you or anyone else. I appreciate measures that protect my rights as they are so uncommon these days.
For the sole purpose of voting the costs to get the documentation are fees in my humble opinion and the things you mentioned are ancillary to those fees and are therefor not a part of voting. Take for example a person who would otherwise not need a BC for another other reason than to obtain it to get the ID to vote, and yet has voted in prior elections and it is well established that person is a citizen, that person is paying a "poll tax" in order to vote as is the case with the Ms Applewhite in PA.
OK, I'd be willing to compromise. A person requests a birth certificate they must indicate on the form whether (A) it is for the sole purpose of obtaining a voter qualifying ID, or (B) Whether it will be used for that or any other purpose needed by the individual. If they indicate (A), the the birth certificate is free. If they indicate (B) then normal costs are charged.
Printed in large, bold, red text across the top is:
"For Use in Voter Identification Processing Only"
Now, when the person uses the Birth Certificate for obtaining a voter approved ID, the issuing agency of ID retains and shreds the birth certificate if it has the red printing on top. If on the other hand the birth certificate had the proper signatures and raised seals, but no red printing - then it is returned to the holder.
Birth Certificates with the red printing would not be legal as:
- Proof of employability for I-9 purposes,
- Proof of age for admittance to any public school (primary, secondary, or college) that accepts federal money in any way,
- Is not an acceptable proof of identity/age for any sports team (football, little league, soccer, etc.),
- Would not be proof of identify for induction into any branch of the armed services,
- Would not be proof of identify for hiring for any public position.
>>>>
Agreed, and as I have indicated in several posts, I really do not have an issue with the ID in general and it seems to me the process of having multiple ID's seems somewhat of a mess and more trouble than it's worth. It would make more sense to use one's voter registration card with a picture one it as a standard for of ID to avoid all this confusion.
No. Employed all of that time, by multiple employers. No one has ever asked for a copy of my birth certificate. Perhaps they wanted it when I went into the military, but that was so long ago I really don't recall. But no employer has ever asked for it.
My SS card, yes. My drivers licence, yes. Heck, even my college transcripts. Never my birth certificate.
My point is that voting is arguably the most important thing we do as citizens. So we have the same point. It is the most basic right any of us has. That is what makes this a government of "we the people". So don't charge someone to do it. If the state is going to require something specifically for voting, there should be no charge for it. That is it. I don't think that is being unreasonable.
Your SS card is an acceptable replacement for a birth certificate on an I-9 form. So what you're admitting is that you've had to show valid ID in order to be employed which is my point. If you've traveled outside of the US then you'd have been asked for a birth certificate to obtain a passport. Any travel outside the US?
By the way...the notion that "we the people" shouldn't have to pay for ID is rather amusing since it's "we the people" who pay the taxes that would pay for the free ID that you don't think we the people should have to pay for.
Again, I don't have a problem with showing and ID to vote. I just have a problem with charging people for the right to vote.
Is it amusing? Are you saying that if someone makes so little money they are below the level where they pay taxes that they are no longer part of "we the people"?
OK, I'd be willing to compromise. A person requests a birth certificate they must indicate on the form whether (A) it is for the sole purpose of obtaining a voter qualifying ID, or (B) Whether it will be used for that or any other purpose needed by the individual. If they indicate (A), the the birth certificate is free. If they indicate (B) then normal costs are charged.
Printed in large, bold, red text across the top is:
"For Use in Voter Identification Processing Only"
Now, when the person uses the Birth Certificate for obtaining a voter approved ID, the issuing agency of ID retains and shreds the birth certificate if it has the red printing on top. If on the other hand the birth certificate had the proper signatures and raised seals, but no red printing - then it is returned to the holder.
Birth Certificates with the red printing would not be legal as:
- Proof of employability for I-9 purposes,
- Proof of age for admittance to any public school (primary, secondary, or college) that accepts federal money in any way,
- Is not an acceptable proof of identity/age for any sports team (football, little league, soccer, etc.),
- Would not be proof of identify for induction into any branch of the armed services,
- Would not be proof of identify for hiring for any public position.
>>>>
Agreed, and as I have indicated in several posts, I really do not have an issue with the ID in general and it seems to me the process of having multiple ID's seems somewhat of a mess and more trouble than it's worth. It would make more sense to use one's voter registration card with a picture one it as a standard for of ID to avoid all this confusion.
In theory. However, the problem with a voter registration card is that it has only one purpose - to vote. To charge for a card you are required to have in order to exercise your right to vote constitutes a tax. To get around that, the card has to be free. I think the cost of such a thing is simply not worth it. I don't think there is a state which does not currently require some kind of identification. I see no reason why that is not good enough. Let the states decide how they want to handle it.
Agreed, and as I have indicated in several posts, I really do not have an issue with the ID in general and it seems to me the process of having multiple ID's seems somewhat of a mess and more trouble than it's worth. It would make more sense to use one's voter registration card with a picture one it as a standard for of ID to avoid all this confusion.
In theory. However, the problem with a voter registration card is that it has only one purpose - to vote. To charge for a card you are required to have in order to exercise your right to vote constitutes a tax. To get around that, the card has to be free. I think the cost of such a thing is simply not worth it. I don't think there is a state which does not currently require some kind of identification. I see no reason why that is not good enough. Let the states decide how they want to handle it.
If the election that we were talking about was a State election then I couldn't care less what each individual State decided as to how they wanted to "handle it" but since this is a National election where the leaders of our country will be decided then I think there should be a uniform set of rules as to how that is accomplished...a set of rules that assures those Americans who ARE legally able to vote that their vote will not be cancelled out by someone who was not.
