Is Individual Greatness Osolete?

[code1211]

Traveling back from a meeting, I was staring through a windshield which I find to be thought provoking for some reason.

I was thinking about the Founders and the attacks their reputations have been subject to for the last 50 or so years. I was wondering why. People like Jefferson committed great aspirations to the activities of the everyday guy with soaring rhetoric and ideals that equalled the rhetoric. As a result, he was revered.

Washington committed his life to a goal of creating a country and then walked away from Kingdom when it was offered in favor of allowing the ideals of the new country to grow. He, too, was revered.

Franklin, Hamilton, Jackson, Grant, Lincoln, and others adorn our currency and were honored with monuments and legend.

Fairly recently in our history, we have been informed that these people were hypocrites, drunks, slave owners and retrobates of every description and unworthy of our reverance. Is this the result of finding the truth amid the debris of legend or a concerted effort to discount the individual in favor of the collective?

More recently, we are led to view people not as individuals but as members of a given race or gender or party or union or nationality or religion.

Collectivism may not be Un-American, but Individualism is the most American thing that there is. Collectivism assumes that the individual cannot rise. That an individual, in truth, cannot even survive without significant help and support. "It Takes a Village".

In the past, American Collectivism existed to clear away the obstacles so that the expended effort of individuals could lead to individual greatness. Now it seems that American collectivism has changed to demand that the efforts of the individual support the needs of the many.

In order to justify this, the talented individual must be viewed as both corrupt and lucky and his rewards must be viewed as illegitimate and unearned.

No individual can therefore be revered. Jefferson owned slaves and wrote about freedom. Hypocrite. Washington slept around. Whore. Franklin was a womanizer, Lincoln a bad spouse and absent father, Grant a drunk, Hamilton a coniving political hack.

Carnegie, Ford, Firestone, Rockerfeller, Edison, Westinghouse and all the rest were draped in greatness when I was young and now are generally acknowledged to be the rapists of the landscape.

Is Collectivism only possible when heroes are destroyed? Is Americanism possible when individual greatness is reviled?

 

[California Girl]

I think it is because we are unable to separate the man from the deeds. We seem to expect any heroes to be without fault. When we discover that they have faults, instead of viewing that as as a demonstration of their human frailty, we use it as a reason to dismiss any greatness.

 

[Skull Pilot]

It seems to be the mantra of the liberal or secular progressive crowd to malign our history and focus on our mistakes and shortcomings rather than on our considerable achievements.

Yesterday I heard some liberal commentator on the radio saying that the soldiers who fought in the Revolutionary War were terrorists of the same order as those who attacked on 9/11 and of the Times Sq. would be bomber. I was speechless.

Of course we know that our side used guerrilla tactics against a larger and better equipped occupying army, but to equate them with modern day terrorists who attack and kill civilians was the longest stretch I have ever witnessed.

The Revolutionary War was a civil war not a terrorist campaign to kill British civilians in hopes of destroying her.

We stand at a fork in the road where we can either embrace the ideals that separated us from Europe and the rest of the world; the idea that individual rights are the highest good and that from protecting each individual we then protect all. Or we can choose the road that will lead us to commonality with Europe and the rest of the world where we will resemble Greece, Spain and Italy and lose our unique identity.

To me the choice is clear.

I am reminded of the poem

THE ROAD NOT TRAVELED
TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference

Robert Frost

We as a nation took the road less traveled and now that the way has become harder for some we seem to long to travel the well worn path that we know leads to European socialism and financial ruin.

I ask you all to not stray from the harder path for the promise of an easier way as the harder paths always lead to the highest peaks and the greatest achievements.

 

[editec]

Is Collectivism only possible when heroes are destroyed? Is Americanism possible when individual greatness is reviled?

The Germans thought pretty highly of Hitler.

Yet according to some hereabout, Hitler was a socialist and a collectivist.

So I guess that hero worshipping is a bad idea regardless of what economic system we're using.

 

[goldcatt]

Truly individual greatness never existed except in myth. Even the "greatest" only acheive what they do because of others' contributions past and present. Admire their accomplishments, but keep a sense of perspective when they turn out to be human after all - as heroes always do.

 

[uscitizen]

LOL. Our founding fathers were just people too.
Not omnificient gods or something able to forsee all twists in the future and making sure the constitution covered them.

Most of them had their own agenda for wanting to break away from England.

 

[Truthmatters]

Its seems the religious right is having problems with reality.

Imagine that?

Now that their own have been proven over and over again to not be so..........well...........morally pure, they are trying to figure out how to reconcile all this.

They pretend stating reality is bad and fantasy should be the aim.

Our founders were human beings not gods.

Our leaders now are human beings not gods.


You are human beings not gods.

Dont pretend you can say you are MORE MORAL than other people.



You are not.


Your religion does not give you a pass.



Now can we just act like adults and use ALL THE FACTS and make decisions that help this country in the laong run as well as the short term?


You see the republicans always just want to think two days ahead.

Lets be adults and use science, history and facts to make our decisions for the future.

Lets be willing to pay more taxes to fix the messes that constant "tax cuts" have left us.


MAN UP AND PAY YOUR FAIR SHARE AND STOP WHINING ABOUT ME ME ME!

 

[saveliberty]

A hero is precisely one because of the deed they do and overcoming the limits of their own abilities and character. One of the most amazing things about the Founders for me had been looking at the sacrifices and effort they made to create this nation and its foundation, only to allow us all the liberties to potentially destroy that creation.

 

[Truthmatters]

Now you know why it was so fucking stupid to spend MILLIONS on a blow job

 

[saveliberty]

Its seems the religious right is having problems with reality.

Imagine that?

Now that their own have been proven over and over again to not be so..........well...........morally pure, they are trying to figure out how to reconcile all this.

They pretend stating reality is bad and fantasy should be the aim.

Our founders were human beings not gods.

Our leaders now are human beings not gods.


You are human beings not gods.

Dont pretend you can say you are MORE MORAL than other people.



You are not.


Your religion does not give you a pass.



Now can we just act like adults and use ALL THE FACTS and make decisions that help this country in the laong run as well as the short term?


You see the republicans always just want to think two days ahead.

Lets be adults and use science, history and facts to make our decisions for the future.

Lets be willing to pay more taxes to fix the messes that constant "tax cuts" have left us.


MAN UP AND PAY YOUR FAIR SHARE AND STOP WHINING ABOUT ME ME ME!

You started out talking about religion and then drifted into liberals at the end. Please use better paragraph structure.

 

[code1211]

Its seems the religious right is having problems with reality.

Imagine that?

Now that their own have been proven over and over again to not be so..........well...........morally pure, they are trying to figure out how to reconcile all this.

They pretend stating reality is bad and fantasy should be the aim.

Our founders were human beings not gods.

Our leaders now are human beings not gods.


You are human beings not gods.

Dont pretend you can say you are MORE MORAL than other people.



You are not.


Your religion does not give you a pass.



Now can we just act like adults and use ALL THE FACTS and make decisions that help this country in the laong run as well as the short term?


You see the republicans always just want to think two days ahead.

Lets be adults and use science, history and facts to make our decisions for the future.

Lets be willing to pay more taxes to fix the messes that constant "tax cuts" have left us.


MAN UP AND PAY YOUR FAIR SHARE AND STOP WHINING ABOUT ME ME ME!

Was this a response or just a random ramble of thoughts?

 

[code1211]

It seems to be the mantra of the liberal or secular progressive crowd to malign our history and focus on our mistakes and shortcomings rather than on our considerable achievements.

Yesterday I heard some liberal commentator on the radio saying that the soldiers who fought in the Revolutionary War were terrorists of the same order as those who attacked on 9/11 and of the Times Sq. would be bomber. I was speechless.

Of course we know that our side used guerrilla tactics against a larger and better equipped occupying army, but to equate them with modern day terrorists who attack and kill civilians was the longest stretch I have ever witnessed.

The Revolutionary War was a civil war not a terrorist campaign to kill British civilians in hopes of destroying her.

We stand at a fork in the road where we can either embrace the ideals that separated us from Europe and the rest of the world; the idea that individual rights are the highest good and that from protecting each individual we then protect all. Or we can choose the road that will lead us to commonality with Europe and the rest of the world where we will resemble Greece, Spain and Italy and lose our unique identity.

To me the choice is clear.

I am reminded of the poem

THE ROAD NOT TRAVELED
TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference

Robert Frost

We as a nation took the road less traveled and now that the way has become harder for some we seem to long to travel the well worn path that we know leads to European socialism and financial ruin.

I ask you all to not stray from the harder path for the promise of an easier way as the harder paths always lead to the highest peaks and the greatest achievements.

I've always loved that poem, but had never thought of it in sense of national identity. It is very appropriate.

 

[Truthmatters]

Its spot on fella.


You lament that the founders were human and not gods.

You lament that some of us humans like to have the truth told even when it tests your opinions.

Truth is what keeps us on the correct path.

You dont like truth because you want to pretend your path is correct.

Its not.


without all the facts you dont steer the right way.

Embrace all truth even the uncomfortable things and you will find a path that doesnt have to rely on lies to seem correct.


Now man up and pay the taxes you have been avoiding for decades.

You can not run a country of WARS paid for on credit cards.


Man up and pay the cost of the fucking wars you voted for over the last ten years.

No whining about ME ME ME.

Pay the costs so your children dont have to.

 

[saveliberty]

Pay the costs so your children dont have to.

Get back to me when 0bama vetos the three trillion in debt ceiling raise he just approved, because he NEEDS it.

 

[my2¢]

I'm not getting the drift of the OP. It seems to me that its whole basis is a matter of complaint against no longer viewing individual greatness in a Collectivism way. A complaint that as a society we no longer have heros and that it has been replaced to being a matter of individual preferences. At least that is how it hit me. I believe we all have people we look towards and hold in awe for their achievements, talents or deeds. It bothers me in the least that I have my own and you have yours. I read into the OP the complaint that as a Village we don't celebrate individual greatness as we used to.

Again, this is just how it first hit me. Perhaps after giving it more consideration and reading some replies I'll see things differently.

 

[Big Black Dog]

Were our founding fathers truly heros or were they nothing more than cannon fodder? I imagine the truth lies somewhere in between. Everybody has a few dents in their armour no matter how much of a shining knight you might be. We need to focus on the good and not harp on the bad. Franklin was a brilliant man and most likely far beyond his time, however, inspite of the wonderful things he invented and the good he did for our young country, he was a womanizer and a person who enjoyed every minute of the "wine, women, and song" trilogy. Does that make him less than the brilliant person he was? I don't think so. We are all products of our environments. The most important thing we need to do is to print our history as it really was. Sugar coating it, or changing the details to be politically correct does nothing to perserve our past. Teaching lies to our young people just to be pollitically correct is a terrible mistake. You can't learn from past history if what you have been taught is nothing but a lie.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Its seems the religious right is having problems with reality.

Imagine that?

How did religion enter this conversation?

Now that their own have been proven over and over again to not be so..........well...........morally pure, they are trying to figure out how to reconcile all this.

You do realize that the liberal hero. JFK also fits into your category of religious right don't you. In fact you would be decrying him as a neocon if he were alive today.

They pretend stating reality is bad and fantasy should be the aim.

What was said was rather than dwell on the negative of human inadequacies of which we are all endowed, we should focus on the ideals that originally set this country apart from the rest of the world and the rather weighty accomplishments those ideals helped manifest.

Our founders were human beings not gods.

Our leaders now are human beings not gods.

Who said they were gods?

You are human beings not gods.

Who said we were gods?

Dont pretend you can say you are MORE MORAL than other people.

Of course I can say it. There are millions of people less moral than I. I would even dare to say that a few are even less moral than you.

You are not.


Your religion does not give you a pass.

I am an atheist.

Now can we just act like adults and use ALL THE FACTS and make decisions that help this country in the laong run as well as the short term?

And what will help us in the long term? Being just like Europe? Do you see where Europe is heading? Is that where you want to be. Look at our own country those states, especially CA that most closely resemble the entitlement society of Europe are failing the most.

You see the republicans always just want to think two days ahead.

Lets be adults and use science, history and facts to make our decisions for the future.

Lets be willing to pay more taxes to fix the messes that constant "tax cuts" have left us.


MAN UP AND PAY YOUR FAIR SHARE AND STOP WHINING ABOUT ME ME ME!

This little rant merely proves that you cannot grasp more complex debate than republican or democratic partisan politics.

If you bothered to think you would see that the thread is about our moving away from the ideal of individual rights and the protection of those rights from government usurpation.

And no one mentioned you but you.

Please feel free to add me to your ignore list as i will be adding you to mine.

 

[boedicca]

Is Collectivism only possible when heroes are destroyed? Is Americanism possible when individual greatness is reviled?

The biggest threat to Collectivism is Individualism. Of course the promoters of the former wish to eliminate the latter. Besmirching the reputations of those who codified the protection of Individual Rights in our system of law is part of the plan to replace our value system with a statist version.

We do indeed have a Crisis Of Values (which is a significant motivation for the Tea Party Movement).

 

[Ragnar]

Is Individual Greatness Osolete?

No.

And you have hit on a much needed, all to uncommon realisation. It is the collectivist who needs to damn hero's. Indeed to damn man qua man. Who, with no sense of irony mock religion while they worship the State.

My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.

- Ayn Rand

Our founding fathers were heroic. They were not some kind of personification of God like perfection as the religious types view Jesus or Muhammad. They were men, imperfect but none the less great. They built a vision to aspire to. A place where each individual can aspire to greatness with the freedom to reach previously unobtainable goals in human history. To earn and keep the profits of his own labor. Free of tyranny be it King, master or collectivist altruism.

 

[Truthmatters]

Telling the truth is not damning anyone.

Telling your self the lie that people are perfect when they are not gets you no where.