Is Individual Greatness Osolete?

[Dr Gregg]

We alway's seem to confuse Human Nature with Politics. WWII ended the depression, not Socialism. What Roosevelt did was shore up the Union's and Government Workers, and Eliminate competition encouraging monopolies, at the expense of Everyone that was not connected.

Meh....hard to really separate WWII from being a huge, Socialist 5 Year Plan.

But whatever ended the Great Depression, it was preceded by the explosive growth of government, which has contraviened individual acheivement ever since.

And created the middle class in the USA

One of the most prosperous timesin this country, when the middle class was booming. THe graph that shows money discrepencies between the top 10% and the rest shows prior to the great depression, the top 10% had so much more than the rest, which during the exploding middle class was much narrower. And now, the top 10% is even higher than it was pre-depression, and look where our economy is. Thriving middle class keeps us strong, keeps economy chugging. Not filth rich fat cats hording more and more money. Don't get why people defend billionaires

 

[code1211]

We alway's seem to confuse Human Nature with Politics. WWII ended the depression, not Socialism. What Roosevelt did was shore up the Union's and Government Workers, and Eliminate competition encouraging monopolies, at the expense of Everyone that was not connected.

Meh....hard to really separate WWII from being a huge, Socialist 5 Year Plan.

But whatever ended the Great Depression, it was preceded by the explosive growth of government, which has contraviened individual acheivement ever since.

And created the middle class in the USA

Fearing the impact of introducing facts into your consideration, Ford created the Middle Class when he doubled the wages paid at the River Rouge Plant. With this single move, he restructured the American economy.

Government had nothing to do with this.

The continued growth of the Middle Class was due largely to the rise of Unions and after WW2 to uncontested expansion of the American industrialization in the absence of competion from the shattered world around us.

Unions, which had been integral to the spread of higher wages across the country in the 30's, a movement that may have hindered the recovery, simply rode on the back of the post war boom and claimed credit for a boom of wealth that would have come in any event.

 

[Dr Gregg]

Meh....hard to really separate WWII from being a huge, Socialist 5 Year Plan.

But whatever ended the Great Depression, it was preceded by the explosive growth of government, which has contraviened individual acheivement ever since.

And created the middle class in the USA

Fearing the impact of introducing facts into your consideration, Ford created the Middle Class when he doubled the wages paid at the River Rouge Plant. With this single move, he restructured the American economy.

Government had nothing to do with this.

The continued growth of the Middle Class was due largely to the rise of Unions and after WW2 to uncontested expansion of the American industrialization in the absence of competion from the shattered world around us.

Unions, which had been integral to the spread of higher wages across the country in the 30's, a movement that may have hindered the recovery, simply rode on the back of the post war boom and claimed credit for a boom of wealth that would have come in any event.

and the fact CEOs and owners only made 40X their average worker salary, which is now 400X. pay is not keeping up with inflation, yet he richer keep getting richer and richer and hording more and more money.THat is a problem

 

[Foxfyre]

Meh....hard to really separate WWII from being a huge, Socialist 5 Year Plan.

But whatever ended the Great Depression, it was preceded by the explosive growth of government, which has contraviened individual acheivement ever since.

And created the middle class in the USA

One of the most prosperous timesin this country, when the middle class was booming. THe graph that shows money discrepencies between the top 10% and the rest shows prior to the great depression, the top 10% had so much more than the rest, which during the exploding middle class was much narrower. And now, the top 10% is even higher than it was pre-depression, and look where our economy is. Thriving middle class keeps us strong, keeps economy chugging. Not filth rich fat cats hording more and more money. Don't get why people defend billionaires

Billionaires are not the problem. The problem is in those who choose to envy and despise the billionaires while wanting somebody else to improve their own circumstances. No billionaire got to be a billionaire with that attitude.

What the Founders gave us was a system in which anybody could aspire to be a billionaire or anything else they wanted to be so long as they did it without trampling on the rights of others.

 

[boedicca]

How many jobs have those billionaires helped create?

A poor person is usually not in a position to hire anyone and sign his paycheck.

 

[Samson]

I think we are all in agreement that none of us is without 'sin', we all screw up something, we all err, we all make mistakes, we all sometimes do not distinguish ourselves, we all have feet of clay.

But sometimes rigid ideology or partisanship can blind us to the faults of some while obliterating any accomplishments of another.

Some people look at a Tiger Woods or Mike Tyson or Betty Ford or Rush Limbaugh or John Kennedy or Franklin Roosevelt and see great golfer, great boxer, philanthropist, successful talk show host, courageous President, principled leader despite the flaws and sins we know are part of that. Others only see adulterer, rapist, drunk, drug addict, party animal, socialist.

Some of us look at the Founders and see men of vision, intelligence, courage, integrity, and principled values knowing full well that each was not without sin. Others can only see slave owner, philanderer, hypocrite or whatever, and are unwilling to even acknowledge any greatness.

Some make heroes of those who further whatever personal prejudices they have chosen. All others must be disminished, marginalized, destroyed lest one's own convictions be exposed as the flawed concepts that they are.

Very nice.

Was it supposed to be posted in this thread?

 

[Samson]

And created the middle class in the USA

One of the most prosperous timesin this country, when the middle class was booming. THe graph that shows money discrepencies between the top 10% and the rest shows prior to the great depression, the top 10% had so much more than the rest, which during the exploding middle class was much narrower. And now, the top 10% is even higher than it was pre-depression, and look where our economy is. Thriving middle class keeps us strong, keeps economy chugging. Not filth rich fat cats hording more and more money. Don't get why people defend billionaires

Billionaires are not the problem. The problem is in those who choose to envy and despise the billionaires while wanting somebody else to improve their own circumstances. No billionaire got to be a billionaire with that attitude.

What the Founders gave us was a system in which anybody could aspire to be a billionaire or anything else they wanted to be so long as they did it without trampling on the rights of others.

No, the problem is that you guys let TM's retarded non sequiturs distract you.

Thread is about "Is Individual Greatness Osolete [sic]"

 

[Foxfyre]

One of the most prosperous timesin this country, when the middle class was booming. THe graph that shows money discrepencies between the top 10% and the rest shows prior to the great depression, the top 10% had so much more than the rest, which during the exploding middle class was much narrower. And now, the top 10% is even higher than it was pre-depression, and look where our economy is. Thriving middle class keeps us strong, keeps economy chugging. Not filth rich fat cats hording more and more money. Don't get why people defend billionaires

Billionaires are not the problem. The problem is in those who choose to envy and despise the billionaires while wanting somebody else to improve their own circumstances. No billionaire got to be a billionaire with that attitude.

What the Founders gave us was a system in which anybody could aspire to be a billionaire or anything else they wanted to be so long as they did it without trampling on the rights of others.

No, the problem is that you guys let TM's retarded non sequiturs distract you.

Thread is about "Is Individual Greatness Osolete [sic]"

But most billionaires ARE an example of individual greatness and almost all made it possible for many others to aspire to be prosperous while they were accomplishing it. Most of the Founders were pretty regular guys. What set them apart was a revolutionary vision of a world in which everybody rather than a privileged few could aspire to greatness. They saw a world in which no church, no monarch, no feudal lord, no authority would have license to prevent anybody from trying to be whatever they wished to be whether that be carpenter, cobbler, baker, or billionare.

Their greatest claim to greatness was in their willingness to risk all to make that vision a reality.

And that is why it distresses me for them to be trashed by those who now do not share or even understand that vision.

 

[The T]

Billionaires are not the problem. The problem is in those who choose to envy and despise the billionaires while wanting somebody else to improve their own circumstances. No billionaire got to be a billionaire with that attitude.

What the Founders gave us was a system in which anybody could aspire to be a billionaire or anything else they wanted to be so long as they did it without trampling on the rights of others.

No, the problem is that you guys let TM's retarded non sequiturs distract you.

Thread is about "Is Individual Greatness Osolete [sic]"

But most billionaires ARE an example of individual greatness and almost all made it possible for many others to aspire to be prosperous while they were accomplishing it. Most of the Founders were pretty regular guys. What set them apart was a revolutionary vision of a world in which everybody rather than a privileged few could aspire to greatness. They saw a world in which no church, no monarch, no feudal lord, no authority would have license to prevent anybody from trying to be whatever they wished to be whether that be carpenter, cobbler, baker, or billionare.

Their greatest claim to greatness was in their willingness to risk all to make that vision a reality.

And that is why it distresses me for them to be trashed by those who now do not share or even understand that vision.

To the ROOT of the Republic. Awesome! (Now WHY on Earth would anyone want to destroy that vision)?

[And before I get *pummeled*? Understand this is a Rhetorical Question]!

*GO!*

 

[Samson]

Billionaires are not the problem. The problem is in those who choose to envy and despise the billionaires while wanting somebody else to improve their own circumstances. No billionaire got to be a billionaire with that attitude.

What the Founders gave us was a system in which anybody could aspire to be a billionaire or anything else they wanted to be so long as they did it without trampling on the rights of others.

No, the problem is that you guys let TM's retarded non sequiturs distract you.

Thread is about "Is Individual Greatness Osolete [sic]"

But most billionaires ARE an example of individual greatness and almost all made it possible for many others to aspire to be prosperous while they were accomplishing it. Most of the Founders were pretty regular guys. What set them apart was a revolutionary vision of a world in which everybody rather than a privileged few could aspire to greatness. They saw a world in which no church, no monarch, no feudal lord, no authority would have license to prevent anybody from trying to be whatever they wished to be whether that be carpenter, cobbler, baker, or billionare.

Their greatest claim to greatness was in their willingness to risk all to make that vision a reality.

And that is why it distresses me for them to be trashed by those who now do not share or even understand that vision.

I think I'll go out and sleep in my truck.

 

[Dr Gregg]

And created the middle class in the USA

One of the most prosperous timesin this country, when the middle class was booming. THe graph that shows money discrepencies between the top 10% and the rest shows prior to the great depression, the top 10% had so much more than the rest, which during the exploding middle class was much narrower. And now, the top 10% is even higher than it was pre-depression, and look where our economy is. Thriving middle class keeps us strong, keeps economy chugging. Not filth rich fat cats hording more and more money. Don't get why people defend billionaires

Billionaires are not the problem. The problem is in those who choose to envy and despise the billionaires while wanting somebody else to improve their own circumstances. No billionaire got to be a billionaire with that attitude.

What the Founders gave us was a system in which anybody could aspire to be a billionaire or anything else they wanted to be so long as they did it without trampling on the rights of others.

Bullshit, they want a living wage, and reward for the work that makes the owners and CEOs make their billions in the first place. how do you defend scum that outsource jobs to make more money than they even need to live lushly? screw teh american worker? Cut benefits, etc, all while they continue to make absurds amounts of money? How do you defend cutting jobs at the slightest little downturn, to keep the CEO salaries super high, but in prosperous times don't pass anything on to their employees?

Just another GOP propaganda bulllshit, that its all the middle class's problem. What about the fact that CEOs make 400X their avg worker salary, while in prosperous times it was 40X?

 

[Dr Gregg]

Billionaires are not the problem. The problem is in those who choose to envy and despise the billionaires while wanting somebody else to improve their own circumstances. No billionaire got to be a billionaire with that attitude.

What the Founders gave us was a system in which anybody could aspire to be a billionaire or anything else they wanted to be so long as they did it without trampling on the rights of others.

No, the problem is that you guys let TM's retarded non sequiturs distract you.

Thread is about "Is Individual Greatness Osolete [sic]"

But most billionaires ARE an example of individual greatness and almost all made it possible for many others to aspire to be prosperous while they were accomplishing it. Most of the Founders were pretty regular guys. What set them apart was a revolutionary vision of a world in which everybody rather than a privileged few could aspire to greatness. They saw a world in which no church, no monarch, no feudal lord, no authority would have license to prevent anybody from trying to be whatever they wished to be whether that be carpenter, cobbler, baker, or billionare.

Their greatest claim to greatness was in their willingness to risk all to make that vision a reality.

And that is why it distresses me for them to be trashed by those who now do not share or even understand that vision.

And they are billionaires, but they keep wanting more and more and more, that's the problem. NOt that they should not be rewarded for their ingenuity and hard work. But they could stop right now and live their life luxuriously, but they keep wanting more and more, at the behest of the american people. BUt the reality of "anybody can become a millionaire" is more and more eroding away. It's tough to do when giant mega corporations are so big, and so powerful, and so rich that they can just buy out the competition or have such huge market control that its tough for anyone to penetrate it. They control all aspect of the country, even media. THey just grow and grow, buying out all the competition, and their goes competitive prices and salaries.

 

[The T]

No, the problem is that you guys let TM's retarded non sequiturs distract you.

Thread is about "Is Individual Greatness Osolete [sic]"

But most billionaires ARE an example of individual greatness and almost all made it possible for many others to aspire to be prosperous while they were accomplishing it. Most of the Founders were pretty regular guys. What set them apart was a revolutionary vision of a world in which everybody rather than a privileged few could aspire to greatness. They saw a world in which no church, no monarch, no feudal lord, no authority would have license to prevent anybody from trying to be whatever they wished to be whether that be carpenter, cobbler, baker, or billionare.

Their greatest claim to greatness was in their willingness to risk all to make that vision a reality.

And that is why it distresses me for them to be trashed by those who now do not share or even understand that vision.

And they are billionaires, but they keep wanting more and more and more, that's the problem. NOt being rewarded for their ingenuity and hard work. BUt the reality of "anybody can become a millionaire" is more and more eroding away. It's tough to do when giant mega corporations are so big, and so powerful, and so rich that they can just buy out the competition or have such huge market control that its tough for anyone to penetrate it. They control all aspect of the country, even media. THey just grow and grow, buying out all the competition, and their goes competitive prices and salaries.

Guess why it is 'eroding'?

 

[boedicca]

Dr. Gregg is misinformed if he thinks that the vast majority of CEOs make billions and billions. The few who have are often founders of companies (Gates, Ellison) who took entrepreneurial risks. They also created massive amounts of jobs via their own companies and the economic ecosystems they fostered.

Envy is a bad way to make public policy - yet DG is determined to follow that ideology.

 

[Intense]

And created the middle class in the USA

Fearing the impact of introducing facts into your consideration, Ford created the Middle Class when he doubled the wages paid at the River Rouge Plant. With this single move, he restructured the American economy.

Government had nothing to do with this.

The continued growth of the Middle Class was due largely to the rise of Unions and after WW2 to uncontested expansion of the American industrialization in the absence of competion from the shattered world around us.

Unions, which had been integral to the spread of higher wages across the country in the 30's, a movement that may have hindered the recovery, simply rode on the back of the post war boom and claimed credit for a boom of wealth that would have come in any event.

and the fact CEOs and owners only made 40X their average worker salary, which is now 400X. pay is not keeping up with inflation, yet he richer keep getting richer and richer and hording more and more money.THat is a problem

That's CEO's and Investors. Don't forget Union Leaders and Politicians.

 

[boedicca]

And they are billionaires, but they keep wanting more and more and more, that's the problem. NOt that they should not be rewarded for their ingenuity and hard work. But they could stop right now and live their life luxuriously, but they keep wanting more and more, at the behest of the american people. BUt the reality of "anybody can become a millionaire" is more and more eroding away. It's tough to do when giant mega corporations are so big, and so powerful, and so rich that they can just buy out the competition or have such huge market control that its tough for anyone to penetrate it. They control all aspect of the country, even media. THey just grow and grow, buying out all the competition, and their goes competitive prices and salaries.

Thank our Congress for that. The punitive tax measures designed to Punish The Rich for the Audacity of Becoming Rich now reach into the Middle Class.

AMT anyone?

 

[The T]

One of the most prosperous timesin this country, when the middle class was booming. THe graph that shows money discrepencies between the top 10% and the rest shows prior to the great depression, the top 10% had so much more than the rest, which during the exploding middle class was much narrower. And now, the top 10% is even higher than it was pre-depression, and look where our economy is. Thriving middle class keeps us strong, keeps economy chugging. Not filth rich fat cats hording more and more money. Don't get why people defend billionaires

Billionaires are not the problem. The problem is in those who choose to envy and despise the billionaires while wanting somebody else to improve their own circumstances. No billionaire got to be a billionaire with that attitude.

What the Founders gave us was a system in which anybody could aspire to be a billionaire or anything else they wanted to be so long as they did it without trampling on the rights of others.

Bullshit, they want a living wage, and reward for the work that makes the owners and CEOs make their billions in the first place. how do you defend scum that outsource jobs to make more money than they even need to live lushly? screw teh american worker? Cut benefits, etc, all while they continue to make absurds amounts of money? How do you defend cutting jobs at the slightest little downturn, to keep the CEO salaries super high, but in prosperous times don't pass anything on to their employees?

Just another GOP propaganda bulllshit, that its all the middle class's problem. What about the fact that CEOs make 400X their avg worker salary, while in prosperous times it was 40X?

Really? And whom sets the precident of what the CEO's make?

Can you answer that question?

 

[Foxfyre]

Bullshit, they want a living wage, and reward for the work that makes the owners and CEOs make their billions in the first place. how do you defend scum that outsource jobs to make more money than they even need to live lushly? screw teh american worker? Cut benefits, etc, all while they continue to make absurds amounts of money? How do you defend cutting jobs at the slightest little downturn, to keep the CEO salaries super high, but in prosperous times don't pass anything on to their employees?

Just another GOP propaganda bulllshit, that its all the middle class's problem. What about the fact that CEOs make 400X their avg worker salary, while in prosperous times it was 40X?

How about you don't focus on those who have succeeded, and focus on those who have established policy to make it so much more difficult for others to succeed. Let's start with politicians and union leaders who do not attach value earned to wages and benefits but rather ingratiate themselves to certain constituencies by establishing artificial wages and benefits. Let's look at policy that so unnecessarily regulates certain industries or so favors one over another than the playing field is neither level nor fair.

These are why jobs are leaving America and going overseas. You definitely misplace your anger and misplace the blame by accusing the wealthy. You could confiscate ALL the wealth of ALL the billionaires and multi-millionaires and you wouldn't have enough money to keep even one large American corporation going for more than a year or two. And if you did that, you would see millions of jobs disappear immediately.

Don't despise those who have achieved greatness no matter how unfair you believe it to be. Be grateful that you live in a country in which anyone can aspire to greatness, and focus your energies on fighting against those who seem determined to take that away from us.

 

[Dr Gregg]

But most billionaires ARE an example of individual greatness and almost all made it possible for many others to aspire to be prosperous while they were accomplishing it. Most of the Founders were pretty regular guys. What set them apart was a revolutionary vision of a world in which everybody rather than a privileged few could aspire to greatness. They saw a world in which no church, no monarch, no feudal lord, no authority would have license to prevent anybody from trying to be whatever they wished to be whether that be carpenter, cobbler, baker, or billionare.

Their greatest claim to greatness was in their willingness to risk all to make that vision a reality.

And that is why it distresses me for them to be trashed by those who now do not share or even understand that vision.

And they are billionaires, but they keep wanting more and more and more, that's the problem. NOt being rewarded for their ingenuity and hard work. BUt the reality of "anybody can become a millionaire" is more and more eroding away. It's tough to do when giant mega corporations are so big, and so powerful, and so rich that they can just buy out the competition or have such huge market control that its tough for anyone to penetrate it. They control all aspect of the country, even media. THey just grow and grow, buying out all the competition, and their goes competitive prices and salaries.

Guess why it is 'eroding'?

I explained in my post why. Let me guess' laziness" and other bullshit talking points?

 

[code1211]

[
Hm. Why can't a person be both a great thinker and a whore? Nobody is perfect. Your heroes are not perfect. So what? Does the realization of that hurt you? Why?

That is reality, that is what children go through when they grow up just to realize that mommy is not an angel that descended from heaven and daddy is not the superman, but rather just a man.

I think it is beyond silly to 'worship' someone - a cult of personality, if you will - it is laughable and childish. Both sides are being stupid about this ... the ones that'd like to live in a lie and think Jefferson et al. were all semi-gods, as well as the cynics that discount their accomplishments simply because they were human and did what all humans do ... err.

Too many people get their panties in a wad over this. Good topic, btw. Also, I don't think it has anything to do with collectivism, even though I can see why you think that.

The impression that I hold of our Founders is not diminished by the recently popular criticism of the their semi-diefication. The foibles and excentricities of these guys makes their achievement only more remarkable to me.

That Franklin was probably the leading scientist of his day AND a womanizing whore monger is such a delicious dichotomy that it is more to be relished than ignored.

However, when the petty among us today claim that the words of Jefferson from the Declaration are invalid due to his ownership of slaves, I find this to be an exercise in picking the fly shit out of the pepper. What is to be gained by denying the impact of this document due to this man's economic station and time of birth? Context.

Teddy Roosevelt's concept of the rugged individualist gave way to Wilson's Progressive Era. The country began its pivot at that point and now, as a society, we seem to revel in bringing down the mighty.

The great men of our past were held up as points of guidance toward which we could steer whether it be to emulate the honesty of Lincoln or Washington, the industrious creativity of Edison, the manufacturing genius of Ford, or the adventurous daring of Lindberg. We were taught that the individual could triumph if he worked hard and didn't give up.

Now we are taught that the deck is stacked and prospect of success is remote and those that do succeed are winners by no other factor than luck at best and quite probably by deciet and swindle.

If I am taught that only my own effort will improve my station in life, it is likely that I will put forth effort. If I am taught that my effort is puny and all of it will not make any difference, I may be inclined to let the more talented labor while I wait for the reward that comes to those who wait.

If the prospect of the triumph of the individual is defined and closely held or the failure of the individual is defined and closely held, that will have an immense impact on the life of the person who is gripped by that belief. It is the difference between living one's life on a foundation of love and hope or on a foundation of hate and fear.

If you feel that your future is not your's to control, you live in the grip of hate and fear.