Is Individual Greatness Osolete?

[Samson]

We alway's seem to confuse Human Nature with Politics. WWII ended the depression, not Socialism. What Roosevelt did was shore up the Union's and Government Workers, and Eliminate competition encouraging monopolies, at the expense of Everyone that was not connected.

Meh....hard to really separate WWII from being a huge, Socialist 5 Year Plan.

But whatever ended the Great Depression, it was preceded by the explosive growth of government, which has contraviened individual acheivement ever since.

And created the middle class in the USA

The truth is that there has always been a middle class in the USA.

 

[Ragnar]

Collectivism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Every soldier who has fought in a war is a collectivist

Ah the ignorance of the wiki-generation.

Which definition from your link do you think might apply to that absurd statement of yours?

Some soldiers, fwiw, fight by choice for the preservation of individual rights. Take for example, from the OP no less, one George Washington.

The collective is greater than the idividual.

Its the basic definition you idiot.

When a person is willing to die for their country they are willing to die for that collective.

Or they value their individual freedom more highly than their life.

Also, for the record, your own link posits multiple definitions. (idiot)

Collectivist | Define Collectivist at Dictionary.com

col·lec·tiv·ism   /kəˈlɛktəˌvɪzəm/ Show Spelled[kuh-lek-tuh-viz-uhm] Show IPA
–noun
the political principle of centralized social and economic control, esp. of all means of production.

Collectivism does not apply to just any group of 2 or more people who trade for mutual gain. Or, as you might have it, any two people. lol

 

[Intense]

WWII spending was government spending , it and the stimulus FDR did before WWII ended the depression.

It proves that stimulus works

Value for Value works. Your conclusion is way off. When is truth going to matter to you??? You also imply that we need a bigger war to fund, like it will fix everything??? What's with that? What's next??? Was Roosevelt in on Pearl Harbor?

 

[Samson]

We alway's seem to confuse Human Nature with Politics. WWII ended the depression, not Socialism. What Roosevelt did was shore up the Union's and Government Workers, and Eliminate competition encouraging monopolies, at the expense of Everyone that was not connected.

WWII did not end the Great Depression - it just put it on pause.

The significant tax cuts implemented by the Democrat Congress (which rejected Truman's plan for a 2nd New Deal) ended the Great Depression.

Regardless of what ended the Great Depression, it's end was preceeded by the explosive growth of government, and government has managed to use this cause and effect to justify continued growth since 1930.

 

[Intense]

We alway's seem to confuse Human Nature with Politics. WWII ended the depression, not Socialism. What Roosevelt did was shore up the Union's and Government Workers, and Eliminate competition encouraging monopolies, at the expense of Everyone that was not connected.

WWII did not end the Great Depression - it just put it on pause.

The significant tax cuts implemented by the Democrat Congress (which rejected Truman's plan for a 2nd New Deal) ended the Great Depression.

WWII kept production and distribution busy, and put the unemployed in uniform.

 

[boedicca]

Correlation is not causality. Just because the private sector persevered despite increasingly intrusive government doesn't mean government intrusion caused their productivity gains.

 

[Truthmatters]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/117270-small-business-jobs-growth-chart.html

rewriting history is not going to work guys

 

[boedicca]

We alway's seem to confuse Human Nature with Politics. WWII ended the depression, not Socialism. What Roosevelt did was shore up the Union's and Government Workers, and Eliminate competition encouraging monopolies, at the expense of Everyone that was not connected.

WWII did not end the Great Depression - it just put it on pause.

The significant tax cuts implemented by the Democrat Congress (which rejected Truman's plan for a 2nd New Deal) ended the Great Depression.

WWII kept production and distribution busy, and put the unemployed in uniform.

Yes. But FDR and Truman were both very worried that the returning military personnel would cause a resurgence of the Depression by adding to unemployment. Both wanted a second New Deal. Congress chose to cut taxes instead of increasing spending. They made the right decision.

 

[Intense]

Correlation is not causality. Just because the private sector persevered despite increasingly intrusive government doesn't mean government intrusion caused their productivity gains.

They are too caught up in the end justifies the means to admit that, let alone realize that.

 

[Samson]

We alway's seem to confuse Human Nature with Politics. WWII ended the depression, not Socialism. What Roosevelt did was shore up the Union's and Government Workers, and Eliminate competition encouraging monopolies, at the expense of Everyone that was not connected.

WWII did not end the Great Depression - it just put it on pause.

The significant tax cuts implemented by the Democrat Congress (which rejected Truman's plan for a 2nd New Deal) ended the Great Depression.

WWII kept production and distribution busy, and put the unemployed in uniform.

Not just the unemployed: there was a DRAFT

At any rate, whenever the government forced individuals to put on a uniform, then "Individual Greatness" was diminished.

 

[Intense]

WWII did not end the Great Depression - it just put it on pause.

The significant tax cuts implemented by the Democrat Congress (which rejected Truman's plan for a 2nd New Deal) ended the Great Depression.

WWII kept production and distribution busy, and put the unemployed in uniform.

Not just the unemployed: there was a DRAFT

At any rate, whenever the government forced individuals to put on a uniform, then "Individual Greatness" was diminished.

The Draft was implied, and yes I am generally against the Draft, with exception.

 

[Samson]

WWII kept production and distribution busy, and put the unemployed in uniform.

Not just the unemployed: there was a DRAFT

At any rate, whenever the government forced individuals to put on a uniform, then "Individual Greatness" was diminished.

The Draft was implied, and yes I am generally against the Draft, with exception.

The point isn't whether or not the draft was justified, the point is that placing individuals in uniform is the antithesis of individualism.

 

[Samson]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/117270-small-business-jobs-growth-chart.html

rewriting history is not going to work guys

Usually your stupidity is amusing: now its getting old. Either discuss the topic or start another thread.

Or, I suppose I could ignore you.

 

[Intense]

Not just the unemployed: there was a DRAFT

At any rate, whenever the government forced individuals to put on a uniform, then "Individual Greatness" was diminished.

The Draft was implied, and yes I am generally against the Draft, with exception.

The point isn't whether or not the draft was justified, the point is that placing individuals in uniform is the antithesis of individualism.

I think Roosevelt's point to the Draft was to fill the Ranks of a working Military, during War.

 

[Samson]

The Draft was implied, and yes I am generally against the Draft, with exception.

The point isn't whether or not the draft was justified, the point is that placing individuals in uniform is the antithesis of individualism.

I think Roosevelt's point to the Draft was to fill the Ranks of a working Military, during War.

Sure, but it didn't hurt his feelings that it diminished individualism, and grew government.

 

[Foxfyre]

I think we are all in agreement that none of us is without 'sin', we all screw up something, we all err, we all make mistakes, we all sometimes do not distinguish ourselves, we all have feet of clay.

But sometimes rigid ideology or partisanship can blind us to the faults of some while obliterating any accomplishments of another.

Some people look at a Tiger Woods or Mike Tyson or Betty Ford or Rush Limbaugh or John Kennedy or Franklin Roosevelt and see great golfer, great boxer, philanthropist, successful talk show host, courageous President, principled leader despite the flaws and sins we know are part of that. Others only see adulterer, rapist, drunk, drug addict, party animal, socialist.

Some of us look at the Founders and see men of vision, intelligence, courage, integrity, and principled values knowing full well that each was not without sin. Others can only see slave owner, philanderer, hypocrite or whatever, and are unwilling to even acknowledge any greatness.

Some make heroes of those who further whatever personal prejudices they have chosen. All others must be disminished, marginalized, destroyed lest one's own convictions be exposed as the flawed concepts that they are.

 

[Intense]

The point isn't whether or not the draft was justified, the point is that placing individuals in uniform is the antithesis of individualism.

I think Roosevelt's point to the Draft was to fill the Ranks of a working Military, during War.

Sure, but it didn't hurt his feelings that it diminished individualism, and grew government.

I've never been a fan of Roosevelt, though I'm somewhat less harsh on Teddy. Still.... there are remedies that are not compatible with Federalist Constitutional Government and some hurtful. Those that blame the Free Market or the Industrial Revolution, or in door plumbing for their problems do not get my sympathy or tolerance.

 

[Dr Gregg]

Those men (in the OP) were brilliant, and helped create IMO the best government in the world (nothing is perfect though when man gets in the way of it). They brilliantly put in checks and balances, and ability to change and interpret laws with the changing times. Helped build a country that rose so quickly to the top of the world (thanks in part to having good resources also).

The people that criticize them frankly are ignorant whiny babies that know nothing about the formation of this country, nor anything about the government.THese are the fools that think they can believe whatever they want and its true.

What other form of government is better than what we have? What other country is better? Everything to these people is a big giant conspiracy, every facet of gov't out to fuck them, and that's just horseshit. Taking examples of corruption and mistreatment by gov't and applying it to all forms of government is absurd.

 

[code1211]

WWII spending was government spending , it and the stimulus FDR did before WWII ended the depression.

It proves that stimulus works

FDR ran a stimulus program from 1932 through 1941. The USA enjoyed three years above 20% unemployment, One year, 1941 below 10% unemployment at 9.66 and the rest in between. By today's standards, that rate would have been doubled since women made up such a small portion of the workforce.

His Stimulus was absolutely ineffective. The War ended the Depression. The Lend Lease Act started the War production and the destruction of the rest of the world enabled the USA as the only intact industrialized nation to dominate the globe economically and Militarily for the rest of the century.

The Depression in the United States

 

[Neser Boha]

Traveling back from a meeting, I was staring through a windshield which I find to be thought provoking for some reason.

I was thinking about the Founders and the attacks their reputations have been subject to for the last 50 or so years. I was wondering why. People like Jefferson committed great aspirations to the activities of the everyday guy with soaring rhetoric and ideals that equalled the rhetoric. As a result, he was revered.

Washington committed his life to a goal of creating a country and then walked away from Kingdom when it was offered in favor of allowing the ideals of the new country to grow. He, too, was revered.

Franklin, Hamilton, Jackson, Grant, Lincoln, and others adorn our currency and were honored with monuments and legend.

Fairly recently in our history, we have been informed that these people were hypocrites, drunks, slave owners and retrobates of every description and unworthy of our reverance. Is this the result of finding the truth amid the debris of legend or a concerted effort to discount the individual in favor of the collective?

More recently, we are led to view people not as individuals but as members of a given race or gender or party or union or nationality or religion.

Collectivism may not be Un-American, but Individualism is the most American thing that there is. Collectivism assumes that the individual cannot rise. That an individual, in truth, cannot even survive without significant help and support. "It Takes a Village".

In the past, American Collectivism existed to clear away the obstacles so that the expended effort of individuals could lead to individual greatness. Now it seems that American collectivism has changed to demand that the efforts of the individual support the needs of the many.

In order to justify this, the talented individual must be viewed as both corrupt and lucky and his rewards must be viewed as illegitimate and unearned.

No individual can therefore be revered. Jefferson owned slaves and wrote about freedom. Hypocrite. Washington slept around. Whore. Franklin was a womanizer, Lincoln a bad spouse and absent father, Grant a drunk, Hamilton a coniving political hack.

Carnegie, Ford, Firestone, Rockerfeller, Edison, Westinghouse and all the rest were draped in greatness when I was young and now are generally acknowledged to be the rapists of the landscape.

Is Collectivism only possible when heroes are destroyed? Is Americanism possible when individual greatness is reviled?

Hm. Why can't a person be both a great thinker and a whore? Nobody is perfect. Your heroes are not perfect. So what? Does the realization of that hurt you? Why?

That is reality, that is what children go through when they grow up just to realize that mommy is not an angel that descended from heaven and daddy is not the superman, but rather just a man.

I think it is beyond silly to 'worship' someone - a cult of personality, if you will - it is laughable and childish. Both sides are being stupid about this ... the ones that'd like to live in a lie and think Jefferson et al. were all semi-gods, as well as the cynics that discount their accomplishments simply because they were human and did what all humans do ... err.

Too many people get their panties in a wad over this. Good topic, btw. Also, I don't think it has anything to do with collectivism, even though I can see why you think that.