Is a business allowed to violate civil rights?

[Intense]

The country was founded on the principal of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...the federal documents (the constitution) includes the bill of rights. If someone wants to be an American and/or operate in America they cannot act in an un-American manner and violate someone else's civil rights.

What liberty do you really have if someone can refuse to serve you a meal simply because of your skin color?

This is gonna turn into a whine about Rand Paul, right?

Yeah, because it's soooooooooooooooo not germane.

The Tea Party people like to straddle the fence and avoid being nailed down on specific issues.


That's only going to get you so far.

I think what you are doing is called profiling.

 

[Intense]

I am a man, I have money and am willing to pay. They won't let me join. I am being discriminated against. The only criteria for not allowing me to join is my sex.

So you don't think there is a difference between a private club and a business that is open to the public. Fine by me.

I'm more interested in hearing the opinion of those that think it is okay for a business to violate someone's civil rights but neither the government nor an individual can.

There was a case recently where a restaurant posted that they would only serve customers that ordered in English. Did this violate anyone's civil rights?

No. You want to mandate which and how many languages people are required to know??? That's absurd.

 

[Intense]

Title II explains it fairly well.

Have you read it?

SEC. 201. (a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, and privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, as defined in this section, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin. (b) Each of the following establishments which serves the public is a place of public accommodation within the meaning of this title if its operations affect commerce, or if discrimination or segregation by it is supported by State action:
(1) any inn, hotel, motel, or other establishment which provides lodging to transient guests, other than an establishment located within a building which contains not more than five rooms for rent or hire and which is actually occupied by the proprietor of such establishment as his residence;
(2) any restaurant, cafeteria, lunchroom, lunch counter, soda fountain, or other facility principally engaged in selling food for consumption on the premises, including, but not limited to, any such facility located on the
premises of any retail establishment; or any gasoline station;
(3) any motion picture house, theater, concert hall, sports arena, stadium or other place of exhibition or entertainment; and
(4) any establishment (A)(i) which is physically located within the premises of any establishment otherwise covered by this subsection, or (ii) within the premises of which is physically located any such covered establishment, and (B) which holds itself out as serving patrons of such covered establishment.
(c) The operations of an establishment affect commerce within the meaning of this title if (1) it is one of the establishments described in paragraph (1) of subsection (b); (2) in the case of an establishment described in paragraph (2) of subsection (b), it serves or offers to serve interstate travelers or a substantial portion of the food which it serves, or gasoline or other products which it sells, has moved in commerce; (3) in the case of an establishment described in paragraph (3) of subsection (b), it customarily presents films, performances, athletic teams, exhibitions, or other sources of entertainment which move in commerce; and (4) in the case of an establishment described in paragraph (4) of subsection (b), it is physically located within the premises of, or there is physically located within its premises, an establishment the operations of which affect commerce within the meaning of this subsection. For purposes of this section, "commerce" means travel, trade, traffic, commerce, transportation, or communication among the several States, or between the District of Columbia and any State, or between any foreign country or any territory or possession and any State or the District of Columbia, or between points in the same State but through any other State or the District of Columbia or a foreign country.
(d) Discrimination or segregation by an establishment is supported by State action within the meaning of this title if such discrimination or segregation (1) is carried on under color of any law, statute, ordinance, or regulation; or (2) is carried on under color of any custom or usage required or enforced by officials of the State or political subdivision thereof; or (3) is required by action of the State or political subdivision thereof.
(e) The provisions of this title shall not apply to a private club or other establishment not in fact open to the public, except to the extent that the facilities of such establishment are made available to the customers or patrons of an establishment within the scope of subsection (b).
SEC. 202. All persons shall be entitled to be free, at any establishment or place, from discrimination or segregation of any kind on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin, if such discrimination or segregation is or purports to be required by any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, rule, or order of a State or any agency or political subdivision thereof.
SEC. 203. No person shall (a) withhold, deny, or attempt to withhold or deny, or deprive or attempt to deprive, any person of any right or privilege secured by section 201 or 202, or (b) intimidate, threaten, or coerce, or attempt to intimidate, threaten, or coerce any person with the purpose of interfering with any right or privilege secured by section 201 or 202, or (c) punish or attempt to punish any person for exercising or attempting to exercise any right or privilege secured by section 201 or 202.

..."

Welcome to OurDocuments.gov
​

That means no, glad you got that right.

It's pretty clear. If you open your doors to all, you must accept all without regard to race, religion or national origin.

The point being crystal clear, what is Ravi's problem? Why the false premise? Why pages of it???

 

[Quantum Windbag]

So you don't think there is a difference between a private club and a business that is open to the public. Fine by me.

I'm more interested in hearing the opinion of those that think it is okay for a business to violate someone's civil rights but neither the government nor an individual can.

There was a case recently where a restaurant posted that they would only serve customers that ordered in English. Did this violate anyone's civil rights?

I don't think so. I don't see it as the same thing, though.

Do you? If so, why?

Doesn't that amount to discriminate on the basis of national origin?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

So you don't think there is a difference between a private club and a business that is open to the public. Fine by me.

I'm more interested in hearing the opinion of those that think it is okay for a business to violate someone's civil rights but neither the government nor an individual can.

There was a case recently where a restaurant posted that they would only serve customers that ordered in English. Did this violate anyone's civil rights?

No. You want to mandate which and how many languages people are required to know??? That's absurd.

Is it any more absurd than mandating that everyone know one language?

 

[Intense]

There was a case recently where a restaurant posted that they would only serve customers that ordered in English. Did this violate anyone's civil rights?

I don't think so. I don't see it as the same thing, though.

Do you? If so, why?

Doesn't that amount to discriminate on the basis of national origin?

No. Funny but in my neighbor hood in many stores you would be pressed to find anyone speaking English. Heavy Asian, Spanish, Islamic, Indian, few signs are even in English. Either way, one adapts.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I don't think so. I don't see it as the same thing, though.

Do you? If so, why?

Doesn't that amount to discriminate on the basis of national origin?

No. Funny but in my neighbor hood in many stores you would be pressed to find anyone speaking English. Heavy Asian, Spanish, Islamic, Indian, few signs are even in English. Either way, one adapts.

Ravi is the one who needs to think about this, I actually know the answers.

 

[Intense]

There was a case recently where a restaurant posted that they would only serve customers that ordered in English. Did this violate anyone's civil rights?

No. You want to mandate which and how many languages people are required to know??? That's absurd.

Is it any more absurd than mandating that everyone know one language?

First it is not mandated. Second it does make sense that to be able to communicate effectively a Country adopts an "Official language". There are less problems that way. That has little or no effect on secondary Languages. Do you know that the official Languages of Puerto Rico are Spanish and English? In written communication English has become the International language of science. http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/essays/V1p019y1962-73.pdf

English is currently one of the most widely spoken and written languages worldwide, with some 380 million native speakers.

Through the global influence of native English speakers in cinema, music, broadcasting, science, and the Internet in recent decades, English is now the most widely learned second language in the world.

Because a working knowledge of English is required in many fields and occupations, education ministries around the world mandate the teaching of English to at least a basic level.

And there are some other facts about English you might be interested in knowing. In no particular order, here are some of the numbers about English:

•English is the most widespread language in the world and is more widely spoken and written than any other language.
•Over 400 million people use the English vocabulary as a mother tongue, only surpassed in numbers, but not in distribution by speakers of the many varieties of Chinese.
•Over 700 million people, speak English, as a foreign language.
•Did you know that of all the world's languages (over 2,700) English is arguably the richest in vocabulary; and that the Oxford English Dictionary lists about 500,000 words, and there are a half-million technical and scientific terms still uncatalogued?
•Three-quarters of the world's mail, telexes and cables are in English.
•More than half of the world's technical and scientific periodicals are in English
•English is the medium for 80% of the information stored in the world's computers
•English is the language of navigation, aviation and of Christianity; it is the ecumenical language of the World Council of Churches
•Five of the largest broadcasting companies in the world (CBS, NBC, ABC, BBC and CBC) transmit in English, reaching millions and millions of people all over the world.
The main language used throughout the world on the internet is English. The media that make up the Internet are overwhelmingly American in origin, so it is no wonder that the mother tongue of the Web is English. Four factors determine the degree to which a given language finds use on the Internet:

1. The number of users of the language
2. The extent of its use as an official language
3. The economic power of the language and ;
4. The volume of information disseminated in that language.

Today, English reigns supreme in all four respects. It is studied as a foreign language throughout the world and employed by a majority of Internet users. Of the 163 member nations of the U.N., more use English as their official language than any other. The easiest way to calculate the economic influence of a language may be to add up the gross domestic products (GDP) of all the nations where it is spoken. People who count English as their mother tongue make up less than 10% of the world's population, but possess over 30% of the world's economic power. Therefore, in terms of the quantity of transmitted information, English is the leader by far. After English, 26 nations in the U.N. cite French as their official tongue, 21 Spanish and 17 Arabic. Each of these three languages forms a sizable linguistic constituency on the Internet.


English language Statistics

 

[Intense]

Doesn't that amount to discriminate on the basis of national origin?

No. Funny but in my neighbor hood in many stores you would be pressed to find anyone speaking English. Heavy Asian, Spanish, Islamic, Indian, few signs are even in English. Either way, one adapts.

Ravi is the one who needs to think about this, I actually know the answers.

Sometimes I have a good time relating to customers when we cannot communicate with words, some times it's a lesson in futility. Most times they would have someone to call or be there to translate. Most of us apply reason in one way or another. One can only hope.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

No. You want to mandate which and how many languages people are required to know??? That's absurd.

Is it any more absurd than mandating that everyone know one language?

First it is not mandated. Second it does make sense that to be able to communicate effectively a Country adopts an "Official language". There are less problems that way. That has little or no effect on secondary Languages. Do you know that the official Languages of Puerto Rico are Spanish and English? In written communication English has become the International language of science. http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/essays/V1p019y1962-73.pdf

English is currently one of the most widely spoken and written languages worldwide, with some 380 million native speakers.

Through the global influence of native English speakers in cinema, music, broadcasting, science, and the Internet in recent decades, English is now the most widely learned second language in the world.

Because a working knowledge of English is required in many fields and occupations, education ministries around the world mandate the teaching of English to at least a basic level.

And there are some other facts about English you might be interested in knowing. In no particular order, here are some of the numbers about English:

•English is the most widespread language in the world and is more widely spoken and written than any other language.
•Over 400 million people use the English vocabulary as a mother tongue, only surpassed in numbers, but not in distribution by speakers of the many varieties of Chinese.
•Over 700 million people, speak English, as a foreign language.
•Did you know that of all the world's languages (over 2,700) English is arguably the richest in vocabulary; and that the Oxford English Dictionary lists about 500,000 words, and there are a half-million technical and scientific terms still uncatalogued?
•Three-quarters of the world's mail, telexes and cables are in English.
•More than half of the world's technical and scientific periodicals are in English
•English is the medium for 80% of the information stored in the world's computers
•English is the language of navigation, aviation and of Christianity; it is the ecumenical language of the World Council of Churches
•Five of the largest broadcasting companies in the world (CBS, NBC, ABC, BBC and CBC) transmit in English, reaching millions and millions of people all over the world.
The main language used throughout the world on the internet is English. The media that make up the Internet are overwhelmingly American in origin, so it is no wonder that the mother tongue of the Web is English. Four factors determine the degree to which a given language finds use on the Internet:

1. The number of users of the language
2. The extent of its use as an official language
3. The economic power of the language and ;
4. The volume of information disseminated in that language.

Today, English reigns supreme in all four respects. It is studied as a foreign language throughout the world and employed by a majority of Internet users. Of the 163 member nations of the U.N., more use English as their official language than any other. The easiest way to calculate the economic influence of a language may be to add up the gross domestic products (GDP) of all the nations where it is spoken. People who count English as their mother tongue make up less than 10% of the world's population, but possess over 30% of the world's economic power. Therefore, in terms of the quantity of transmitted information, English is the leader by far. After English, 26 nations in the U.N. cite French as their official tongue, 21 Spanish and 17 Arabic. Each of these three languages forms a sizable linguistic constituency on the Internet.


English language Statistics

FYI
I grew up on the border and have had to deal with people speaking Spanish all my life. I studied Latin in school, and can get by in about 5 languages. My experience is that businesses adapt to the customers they want. I have become more stubborn as I aged, and now insist that people who want my money deal with me in English, as long as I am in the United States. I have actually found that more businesses speak at least rudimentary English along the border in Mexico than do in the United States. That is a fact that pisses me off no end, because I know that most of the clerks in the stores on this side of the border have lived here all their lives. Just like the ones across the border have spent all their lives there.

New Mexico is the only state I know of that has two official languages written into is original constitution. It is bilingual, and the state has been bilingual since its inception. I don't think it is doing any worse than the rest of the country. I do think that the argument for mandating an official language makes sense fically, but there is no way a government can reasonable impose a languge choice on its citizens.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Can a man join a female only athletic club like "Curves". Why not? Why can "Curves" exclude men from joining? Why can a country club exclude non-members from eating at the restaurant or playing golf on it's course? It's not fair!!! Why can the United Negro College Fund exclude whites from scholarships? Why can the Masters exclude woman from joining?? Inquiring minds want to know!!!

I didn't know athletic clubs were covered under the Civil Rights act. Which title?

Country clubs - also not covered. Country clubs are private clubs.

Also don't see where the Civil Rights Act covers scholarship funds, either, except in the equal distribution of funds for male and female athletics.

Maybe if you could point to specific applications of the act. The act does not apply to all cases of discrimination. It applies only to particular instances. For instance - the requirement that men and women athletes get the same funding only applies to institutions receiving federal funding.

 

[Avatar4321]

What liberty do you have if you are forced to work for someone you don't want to?

I think we got rid of that pesky little thing called slavery years ago.

 

[JBeukema]

My theory: We will never rid ourselves of racists while we force them underground. We will rid ourselves of them by shining a bright light on them for all to see.

So, while I agree that no human being should discriminate against another on any grounds, I am not sure that forcing businesses to do business with someone they do not wish to do business with is the right way to deal with it. Maybe it's better that they be able to discriminate, so that we know who these people are and can avoid doing business with them.

Any restaurant who refused to seat a black person should have the right to do that (no matter how abhorrent I find it) just like I would have the right never to give my business to those businesses.

Should we have 'white only' restaurants in the US?

Is it fundamentally different that members-only clubs having a restaurant on the premise or a business not renting an apartment to people who are below a certain age? If I can rent to only a given age group in order to a desired atmosphere and community, why not a given race, income class, or members of a given religion (a apartment complex owned by devout Christians that rents to Christians to foment Christian fellowship) or club?

Do I, as a business owner, have the right to do business with whom I please and refuse to do business with whom I please? Why are some groups protected and not other and where do you draw the line?

 

[JBeukema]

My theory: We will never rid ourselves of racists while we force them underground. We will rid ourselves of them by shining a bright light on them for all to see.

So, while I agree that no human being should discriminate against another on any grounds, I am not sure that forcing businesses to do business with someone they do not wish to do business with is the right way to deal with it. Maybe it's better that they be able to discriminate, so that we know who these people are and can avoid doing business with them.

Any restaurant who refused to seat a black person should have the right to do that (no matter how abhorrent I find it) just like I would have the right never to give my business to those businesses.

But do businesses have the right to violate someone's civil rights?

How do I violate your civil rights by refusing to enter into a legal contract with you or sell your a product?

 

[JBeukema]

My theory: We will never rid ourselves of racists while we force them underground. We will rid ourselves of them by shining a bright light on them for all to see.

Yeah that worked really well in the 50's when businesses actually put up signs saying "Whites Only". All the tolerant liberal minded whites saw those signs and were like "No way I'm shopping there! I'm going to the hood for my cheese!" That's exactly what happened.

Seriously, how fucking naive are you?

No Whites were willing to business with Blacks?

Are blacks not competent to run their own businesses?

Any restaurant who refused to seat a black person should have the right to do that (no matter how abhorrent I find it) just like I would have the right never to give my business to those businesses.

Sorry, but a restaurant is engaged in interstate commerce.

Such an absolute statement is moronic. There's a restaurant not too far from here that uses only food and plants grown in the State (and organically, making it quite expensive)

A fundamental right is the right to travel freely, and restaurants refusing service based on color violate this right.

How is refusing to let you enter private property a violation of your rights?


Holy crap, I'm violating everyone else's rights when I lock my door when I'm not home! They might want to travel through my home! It's a travesty!

NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!
NO WALLS, NO DOORS, NO TYRANNY!

This is the United States - we don't have 2nd class citizens here.

The 14th amendment clearly protects the right to travel regardless of race

Not through private property.

 

[JBeukema]

The really sad thing about this is our country already decided this one.

There are sadly some idiots who think going backwards will make them happy

Then there are the idiots that think violating one person's civil rights is perfectly fine, as long as it promotes their agenda.

So then you're in favor of the Civil Rights Act of 1964?

So is Rand Paul, as he's always been.

As he told Rachel, when one supports 9/10 of a law, then one will generally vote 'yea' and attempt to tweak the law later on. One will rarely, if ever, see a perfect piece of legislation.

 

[JBeukema]

Not overly familiar with rand Paul, but I can see his argument. Rather than attacking him like a bunch of idiots, the correct response is to make the case that the restriction of the business owners' liberties were necessitated and justified by the need to break a pervasive system of oppression and dehumanization of an entire race. The lesser of two evils, if you will.

 

[Madeline]

The country was founded on the principal of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...the federal documents (the constitution) includes the bill of rights. If someone wants to be an American and/or operate in America they cannot act in an un-American manner and violate someone else's civil rights.

What liberty do you really have if someone can refuse to serve you a meal simply because of your skin color?

Pardon me for replying without first parsing through the previous posts, which I am sure are terrific.

Your civil rights include more than your right to Equal Protection. They can be violated in ways that have zippidty-do-dah to do with your skin color, etc. Some civil rights cannot be violated by a business because they require that you be denied something by a person acting "under the color of law". Ergo, there are some violations of your civil rights that only a government employee can commit.

Can you run any business in America and not be subject to Equal Protection, etc.? It isn't likely. The US Supreme Court reads the Interstate Commerce Clause so broadly that merely accepting US currency as remuneration might be enough to bring your business under the umbrella of Equal Protection.

As a hypothetical, this is a great question but it is 4:15 am, and ATM, I got nothing.

Realistically, I don't think it can be done.

 

[JBeukema]

Sorry, but a restaurant is engaged in interstate commerce. A fundamental right is the right to travel freely, and restaurants refusing service based on color violate this right. If you want to see the effects of such bigotry, just look back in history at all the black musicians and athletes who couldn't eat at a restaurant with the white band or team they were traveling with, or who could not find accommodations and had to sleep in the fucking bus. This is the United States - we don't have 2nd class citizens here. The 14th amendment clearly protects the right to travel regardless of race, and it clearly grants Congress the authority to protect this right. You don't like it, renounce your citizenship.

This just shows how fucked up the interpretation of the constitution has gotten, and how much people have to stretch language to justify their fucked up logic.

If I own a restaurant the only way I would be involved in interstate commerce would be if my restaurant somehow crossed state lines to do business. It does not matter if I own the most famous restaurant in the world, there is no way that would happen unless I actively shipped my meals to people in other states.

I thought that was why God made lawyers? To work every angle including inside out, backwards, up side down, what if, make believe, alternate reality, and coulda-woulda-shoulda.

http://www.insidesocal.com/tv/wildlife-monkeys-hear-no-evil-see-no-evil-speak-no-evil.jpg

those aren't monkeys
<img id="greasedLightboxImage">


Greased Lightbox&#8594;&#8592;+-&#8635;

Loading image
Click anywhere to cancel

Image unavailable


<img id="greasedLightboxPreload"><img id="greasedLightboxPrefetch">

 

[Madeline]

Intense wrote:

I thought that was why God made lawyers? To work every angle including inside out, backwards, up side down, what if, make believe, alternate reality, and coulda-woulda-shoulda.

What a doll you are to call lawyers "God-made". I haven't seen this much affection for my brothers and sisters at the bar in YEARS.

Thankies!

*Curtseys*