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I asked a question, never got an answer. Does that mean all 'leftists' are stupid?
Really, so only 2% of sunnis even showed up to vote, because they WANT representative democracy?
Hrm...when 70%? of eligible voters, voted, that sends a PRETTY Clear message, right? Does it not? Have you physically SPOKEN to an Iraqi? More than one? How about anyone who has served in Iraq - just to get their sensing on "whether or not Iraqis want democracy in some form, or are resentful of the US and others for having 'forced' it upon them?"
Side note:
Why do you (and others) continue to point Spotlights at negative news, but yet poo-pah anything POSITIVE?
Yes I have, every single soldier I have spoken with repeats the same thing. "they dont want us there". So if they dont want western civilization to protect them, why would they embrace any true western democracy. And Im not talking about Islamic Democracy, as I said before religious democracy is not a true democracy.
I think you're lying. How do you have contact with soldiers? What's your sample? In what context do they not want us there?
Your "Soldiers" are 180 degrees from the viewpoint I hear from Field-Grade officers and Senior NCOs who leave from here, go there, and return. While it's very true Iraqis would rather we NOT be there - I mean, WHO wants another nation occupying their country? However, Iraqis know what we mean - some measure of protection and power against the folk who'd set up a theocracy.
Fwiw, The USA is religious. And we're a democratic Republic. We do okay.
1) You asked no question to me, therefore your comment is irrelevant.
2) I am not a leftist, therefore your comment is irrelevant
3) I did not ask a question, nor expect an answer, nor evade answering a question, therefore your comment is irrelevant
4) People on this board have lives, unlike some of you. If you have more than 25 posts per day, you probably have no life. I do not post every day...I go out, often, and do things with other people. You and RSR should get out of the house more.
I think you're lying. How do you have contact with soldiers? What's your sample? In what context do they not want us there?
Your "Soldiers" are 180 degrees from the viewpoint I hear from Field-Grade officers and Senior NCOs who leave from here, go there, and return. While it's very true Iraqis would rather we NOT be there - I mean, WHO wants another nation occupying their country? However, Iraqis know what we mean - some measure of protection and power against the folk who'd set up a theocracy.
Fwiw, The USA is religious. And we're a democratic Republic. We do okay.
I sent you rep, but just for the record, you suck and I make no excuses. Fuck off.
Yes the US is religious, but that religion is secular and our democracy is not a religious democracy. (despite george bush appointing wackos to the supreme court). Our nations founders did not intend for this to be a religious democracy at all.
A democracy dies when a particular belief is imposed or disbelief is punished. So I dont see how the middle east islamic nations can possibly want a democracy and still be able to follow every literal word of the quran as they have been.
We are different, we dont take the bible as literally as they do, if we did.....well we would be stoning our children, having 20 wives, killing homosexuals, locking up non-believers, and praying in school.
Wow. If you think a neg rep is going to hurt me, you're awfully petty.
It also looks like I touched a nerve...looks like my comment was dead on.
Did you just write "The US' religion is Secular"? I'm not sure what that means.
'Wackos' eh? Using that word betrays your dogmatic adherence to the Talking-Points of democraticunderground.com
Because YOU can't see how Islamic Folk could POSSIBLY want Democracy? Are you reading this?
No - we wouldn't. But I won't waste words with your strawman.
Yes our nation is secular, they are seperate. Im sure you understand what I was saying though when I said secular (seperate) you dont know what that means? Let me explain it, no legislation can be passed that benefits or obstructs any diety. Thats in the constitution. I may have used it in the wrong place, but a 10 year old could have understood what I meant by it.
Third. Yea I sure dont see how they can possibly want democracy and still be able to follow the rules of the quran, have you read the quran?
Im sorry that you are un-informed, but the quran violates the definition of democracy which includes "no belief shall be forced on someone, and no belief or dis-belief shall be punished" thats democracy.
The quran plainly and directly contradicts that. So im sorry, if you want to be closer to allah, if you want to be islamic, if you believe the quran and follow it literally....then you absolutely can not have a democracy. You must choose to bend the rules of the quran a little bit, for democracy to work in the middle east, and many nations are not willing to do that.
And yes we would be doing those things if this was not a secular government and if we took the bible literally like islam does.
Have you read the old testamen? Its very very similar to the quran. So if we took the old testamen literally, then yes we would be cutting penis's off (Abraham) Burning gays (deutronomy) and stoning our children to death (deutronomy). And those are LAWs in the bible, not stories. So what makes you think muslims would break islamic laws, for democracy? They wont, therefore a true democracy will not work.
You wrote "Our Religion is Secular" - "Secular" is not a word to describe Religion. It's one or the other. And your explanation is confusing. How could a man-made law obstruct GOD? That's silly. Are you trying to say "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."?
If you're writing to 10 year olds, you may want another forum; most people here are older than 20 years.
Then you are ignorant of what it means to live in an Islamic state. MANY (I don't have a specific number) of the population of places like, Iraq, or Iran, are Muslim by BIRTH. They are just normal folk - like me, and some are silly, like you. They want a chance to live their lives.
That's funny - because I remember reading, in the Qu'ran 2:256 "There shall be no compulsion in religion.
Silly.
Simply untrue. If there are self-professed Christians out there voting for Clinton or Kerry or Kennedy and the like, I see no reason why Muslims can't vote for folk outside of their religious texts.
AHH! So it's our Government which is secular, NOT our Religion. That's starting to make sense.
Does the letter 't' not work well on your keyboard?
Anyone can take ANY verse out of context to support their point of view - as I did above listing the Qu'ran. If you take certain old-testament records of events, and instructions to SPECIFIC people under SPECIFIC circumstances (Id Est, not everything EVERYBODY in Sorthe bible (esp. old TestamenT) is asked by God to do applies to all believers for all time), out of context, things sound grim. But to take things out of context betrays the intent of the author.
You wrote "Our Religion is Secular" - "Secular" is not a word to describe Religion. It's one or the other. And your explanation is confusing. How could a man-made law obstruct GOD? That's silly. Are you trying to say "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."?
If you're writing to 10 year olds, you may want another forum; most people here are older than 20 years.
Then you are ignorant of what it means to live in an Islamic state. MANY (I don't have a specific number) of the population of places like, Iraq, or Iran, are Muslim by BIRTH. They are just normal folk - like me, and some are silly, like you. They want a chance to live their lives.
That's funny - because I remember reading, in the Qu'ran 2:256 "There shall be no compulsion in religion.
Silly.
Simply untrue. If there are self-professed Christians out there voting for Clinton or Kerry or Kennedy and the like, I see no reason why Muslims can't vote for folk outside of their religious texts.
AHH! So it's our Government which is secular, NOT our Religion. That's starting to make sense.
Does the letter 't' not work well on your keyboard?
Anyone can take ANY verse out of context to support their point of view - as I did above listing the Qu'ran. If you take certain old-testament records of events, and instructions to SPECIFIC people under SPECIFIC circumstances (Id Est, not everything EVERYBODY in the bible (esp. old TestamenT) is asked by God to do applies to all believers for all time), out of context, things sound grim. But to take things out of context betrays the intent of the author.
Are you a real adult person claiming The US and other nations 'FORCED DEMOCRACY" upon the people of iraq?
Since when did the US government have a constitutional prerogative to "bring freedom to an entire people"?
Right now their recruiting ad is: "we want you to blow up yourself and the Americans who have invaded our country and deprived us of a voice in our own government and many of our friends are allowing this."Hrm...when 70%? of eligible voters, voted, that sends a PRETTY Clear message, right? Does it not? Have you physically SPOKEN to an Iraqi? More than one? How about anyone who has served in Iraq - just to get their sensing on "whether or not Iraqis want democracy in some form, or are resentful of the US and others for having 'forced' it upon them?"
Seventy percent isn't enough when deciding on a form of government for an entire nation
instead there must be compromise between the various factions or there must be war between them until one or the other wins.
I am sure that 100% OF THOSE WHO AGREE WITH US ARE QUITE PLEASED WHILE 100% OF THOSE WHO DO NOT ARE VERY ANGRY.
The point is that the Iraqi's aren't choosing their own form of government
or having a discussion of the merits of the various forms like we did in 1789 and they aren't compromising like we did because those who are supported by us feel that they don't have to discuss anything with their family, friends and neighbors who disagree with them instead they can simply vote and when the vote over everyone either agrees or they get an American soldier kicking down their doors and gunning them down.
How many voted in OUR last election?
Does not matter, we are a sovergn nation with 300 million people, less than 1/3rd actually vote because not everyone is even eligable, even then thats still 100 million people. 2% of the sunni's voted in that election, which means they were either scared to vote, or they just did not see a candidate they liked. And now they are not represented at all. They want respect, they want legitimate representation in a shia dominated government.
What's your experience in nation-building?
Being apart of a nation, contributing to its economy by consuming, paying taxes and working.
I bet you have LESS than NO idea what went into setting up the Iraqi government.
It will take decades to really evaluate if Iraq was beneficial in becoming a democratic nation, right now its not looking so good. Even after the violence slows down we will have to donate billions of dollars and billions of hours of our own time and money for Iraq to show true democratic progress. The military can not do this, only money, time, and diplomacy can do this. Iraq is not the first country to go through these changes, we have plenty of evidence to look at from past transitions of nations into some form of democracy.
