Debate Now Incivility

[Wolfsister77]

People who are determined to be rude, insulting, and unpleasant are best ignored. Trying to figure out why people are assholes on the internet is an exercise in futility. Most likely they are insecure and it makes them feel better about themselves.

But when they interject themselves into your business, your life, your project, your recreation time, or whatever, when you have to work with them or cooperate with them, or deal with them doing business, you can't really ignore them.

You can ignore them for the most part but if it is someone you have to work with, that might be more difficult. So keep it to the job and confront them. I know that sounds difficult but I've had success with that before. Just by letting them know, in no uncertain terms, that I'm not going to put up with their shit. As long as I don't sink to their level and don't personally attack them, keep it professional, there is nothing they can do.

I hear you but don't think that is entirely realistic. When it is your boss or supervisor or team members who are engaging in incivility, there is no way to avoid it other than giving up your job. I have in fact quit a job over that very thing. When you are being bullied at school it is often subtle or sneaky in ways that it becomes your word against theirs. What can a kid do? When it is your hostile neighbor what can you do short of selling your house and moving?

It really boils down to the person on the receiving end of the incivility suffering all the consequences of it while the hateful, malicious, etc. suffers none..

I realize it sounds simplistic but it really does work to stand up to people like this and/or ignore them when possible. If they see they can't get to you, they'll move on to someone else most likely or they may not even realize how bad they are being until you point it out to them. Now, it isn't easy. I hate confrontation. But as long as you don't sink to their level, it can and does work to stand up to them.

 

[Wolfsister77]

But the problem is Mertex, as was described in the OP, you can avoid the uncivil on a message board by simply not participating on the message board. In the grand scheme of things, no big loss.

But in real life, incivility is much more difficult to avoid when it is exhibited by your neighbors, people you must share the roadways with, in the work place, at church, or other places that are not practical to avoid.

I am not sure I had fully identified all my motives for starting this thread, but after a few days here, I think that is where I was most likely coming from--the desire for a more civil existence that used to be commonplace almost everywhere. And how do we get back to that?

Well, Don't sink to their level by personally insulting them. Avoid them if possible. If not, stay calm, stand up for yourself, and hope the person being a jerk gets the point. Most importantly, don't let them upset you because they are not worth it. More than likely, they have their own issues they are dealing with and they may not even realize how bad they are coming off. It's much, much tougher with neighbors and co-workers. There's always going to be assholes in this world no matter what we do. The best thing to so is be better than them. Surround yourself with people who are better than them. Tell yourself you are better than them. And realize, it's a part of life.

Thanks, but believe me I know all the wise advice. Those business classes I taught included conflict management and I was taught by some of the best. But all the techniques and exemplary conduct on your part still cannot prevent somebody else from making your life miserable if they are determined to do so. And if those in power are unwilling to intervene or the 'bullies' are the ones who are in power, the bottom line is that you are pretty well screwed.

I agree if the person continues to be a jerk no matter what you do and management does nothing about it, then accept that management sucks, the company sucks, and you are better off elsewhere.

I'm really not sure what kind of answers you expect to get out of this discussion except what I'm telling you here. There are only so many ways to deal with jerks. Ignore, stand up to, or leave.

 

[Foxfyre]

People who are determined to be rude, insulting, and unpleasant are best ignored. Trying to figure out why people are assholes on the internet is an exercise in futility. Most likely they are insecure and it makes them feel better about themselves.

But when they interject themselves into your business, your life, your project, your recreation time, or whatever, when you have to work with them or cooperate with them, or deal with them doing business, you can't really ignore them.

You can ignore them for the most part but if it is someone you have to work with, that might be more difficult. So keep it to the job and confront them. I know that sounds difficult but I've had success with that before. Just by letting them know, in no uncertain terms, that I'm not going to put up with their shit. As long as I don't sink to their level and don't personally attack them, keep it professional, there is nothing they can do.

I hear you but don't think that is entirely realistic. When it is your boss or supervisor or team members who are engaging in incivility, there is no way to avoid it other than giving up your job. I have in fact quit a job over that very thing. When you are being bullied at school it is often subtle or sneaky in ways that it becomes your word against theirs. What can a kid do? When it is your hostile neighbor what can you do short of selling your house and moving?

It really boils down to the person on the receiving end of the incivility suffering all the consequences of it while the hateful, malicious, etc. suffers none..

I realize it sounds simplistic but it really does work to stand up to people like this and/or ignore them when possible. If they see they can't get to you, they'll move on to someone else most likely or they may not even realize how bad they are being until you point it out to them. Now, it isn't easy. I hate confrontation. But as long as you don't sink to their level, it can and does work to stand up to them.

I just can't quite join you in that conviction though. Yes. there are many techniques and ways of dealing with difficult people and most of us usually learn how to effectively use those. But when it comes to deliberate and intentional incivility from those determined to be uncivil, we have three choices:
1. Remove that person from the situation.
2. Accept and endure the abuse.
3. Remove ourselves from the situation.

And many in the situation have no power to implement No. 1.

 

[Foxfyre]

But the problem is Mertex, as was described in the OP, you can avoid the uncivil on a message board by simply not participating on the message board. In the grand scheme of things, no big loss.

But in real life, incivility is much more difficult to avoid when it is exhibited by your neighbors, people you must share the roadways with, in the work place, at church, or other places that are not practical to avoid.

I am not sure I had fully identified all my motives for starting this thread, but after a few days here, I think that is where I was most likely coming from--the desire for a more civil existence that used to be commonplace almost everywhere. And how do we get back to that?

Well, Don't sink to their level by personally insulting them. Avoid them if possible. If not, stay calm, stand up for yourself, and hope the person being a jerk gets the point. Most importantly, don't let them upset you because they are not worth it. More than likely, they have their own issues they are dealing with and they may not even realize how bad they are coming off. It's much, much tougher with neighbors and co-workers. There's always going to be assholes in this world no matter what we do. The best thing to so is be better than them. Surround yourself with people who are better than them. Tell yourself you are better than them. And realize, it's a part of life.

Thanks, but believe me I know all the wise advice. Those business classes I taught included conflict management and I was taught by some of the best. But all the techniques and exemplary conduct on your part still cannot prevent somebody else from making your life miserable if they are determined to do so. And if those in power are unwilling to intervene or the 'bullies' are the ones who are in power, the bottom line is that you are pretty well screwed.

I agree if the person continues to be a jerk no matter what you do and management does nothing about it, then accept that management sucks, the company sucks, and you are better off elsewhere.

I'm really not sure what kind of answers you expect to get out of this discussion except what I'm telling you here. There are only so many ways to deal with jerks. Ignore, stand up to, or leave.

I have no preconceived expectations of what this discussion will produce. I enjoy in engaging in discussion of complex subjects and seeing where they will lead. Very often those who get into the spirit of such a discussion will come up with perspectives or insights that are useful to others including myself.

 

[Wolfsister77]

People who are determined to be rude, insulting, and unpleasant are best ignored. Trying to figure out why people are assholes on the internet is an exercise in futility. Most likely they are insecure and it makes them feel better about themselves.

But when they interject themselves into your business, your life, your project, your recreation time, or whatever, when you have to work with them or cooperate with them, or deal with them doing business, you can't really ignore them.

You can ignore them for the most part but if it is someone you have to work with, that might be more difficult. So keep it to the job and confront them. I know that sounds difficult but I've had success with that before. Just by letting them know, in no uncertain terms, that I'm not going to put up with their shit. As long as I don't sink to their level and don't personally attack them, keep it professional, there is nothing they can do.

I hear you but don't think that is entirely realistic. When it is your boss or supervisor or team members who are engaging in incivility, there is no way to avoid it other than giving up your job. I have in fact quit a job over that very thing. When you are being bullied at school it is often subtle or sneaky in ways that it becomes your word against theirs. What can a kid do? When it is your hostile neighbor what can you do short of selling your house and moving?

It really boils down to the person on the receiving end of the incivility suffering all the consequences of it while the hateful, malicious, etc. suffers none..

I realize it sounds simplistic but it really does work to stand up to people like this and/or ignore them when possible. If they see they can't get to you, they'll move on to someone else most likely or they may not even realize how bad they are being until you point it out to them. Now, it isn't easy. I hate confrontation. But as long as you don't sink to their level, it can and does work to stand up to them.

I just can't quite join you in that conviction though. Yes. there are many techniques and ways of dealing with difficult people and most of us usually learn how to effectively use those. But when it comes to deliberate and intentional incivility from those determined to be uncivil, we have three choices:
1. Remove that person from the situation.
2. Accept and endure the abuse.
3. Remove ourselves from the situation.

And many in the situation have no power to implement No. 1.

Yes, in some situations that is all we can do. Either accept it or remove ourselves from it. I agree. Luckily, at least in my experience, it isn't really that common for me to be in a situation where the person just can't be dealt with any other way.

 

[ChrisL]

In the workplace, it would be a much more serious thing. In some instances, it could be considered harassment. Most workplaces have some kind of expectations for behavior so hopefully a person who bullied or was just nasty would be dealt with by management. It's a different story if it's your boss though.

 

[Foxfyre]

But when they interject themselves into your business, your life, your project, your recreation time, or whatever, when you have to work with them or cooperate with them, or deal with them doing business, you can't really ignore them.

You can ignore them for the most part but if it is someone you have to work with, that might be more difficult. So keep it to the job and confront them. I know that sounds difficult but I've had success with that before. Just by letting them know, in no uncertain terms, that I'm not going to put up with their shit. As long as I don't sink to their level and don't personally attack them, keep it professional, there is nothing they can do.

I hear you but don't think that is entirely realistic. When it is your boss or supervisor or team members who are engaging in incivility, there is no way to avoid it other than giving up your job. I have in fact quit a job over that very thing. When you are being bullied at school it is often subtle or sneaky in ways that it becomes your word against theirs. What can a kid do? When it is your hostile neighbor what can you do short of selling your house and moving?

It really boils down to the person on the receiving end of the incivility suffering all the consequences of it while the hateful, malicious, etc. suffers none..

I realize it sounds simplistic but it really does work to stand up to people like this and/or ignore them when possible. If they see they can't get to you, they'll move on to someone else most likely or they may not even realize how bad they are being until you point it out to them. Now, it isn't easy. I hate confrontation. But as long as you don't sink to their level, it can and does work to stand up to them.

I just can't quite join you in that conviction though. Yes. there are many techniques and ways of dealing with difficult people and most of us usually learn how to effectively use those. But when it comes to deliberate and intentional incivility from those determined to be uncivil, we have three choices:
1. Remove that person from the situation.
2. Accept and endure the abuse.
3. Remove ourselves from the situation.

And many in the situation have no power to implement No. 1.

Yes, in some situations that is all we can do. Either accept it or remove ourselves from it. I agree. Luckily, at least in my experience, it isn't really that common for me to be in a situation where the person just can't be dealt with any other way.

And alas, that choice lets the 'bullies' win and the victim incurs the penalty. And again, I have to believe there is a better way.

 

[Wolfsister77]

In the workplace, it would be a much more serious thing. In some instances, it could be considered harassment. Most workplaces have some kind of expectations for behavior so hopefully a person who bullied or was just nasty would be dealt with by management. It's a different story if it's your boss though.

I had a boss like this once. Unfortunately, I had to quit. This was only one time though and I wasn't the only one. Eventually, I found out she was fired and I all I could think to myself was, "karma is a bitch" LOL

 

[Wolfsister77]

You can ignore them for the most part but if it is someone you have to work with, that might be more difficult. So keep it to the job and confront them. I know that sounds difficult but I've had success with that before. Just by letting them know, in no uncertain terms, that I'm not going to put up with their shit. As long as I don't sink to their level and don't personally attack them, keep it professional, there is nothing they can do.

I hear you but don't think that is entirely realistic. When it is your boss or supervisor or team members who are engaging in incivility, there is no way to avoid it other than giving up your job. I have in fact quit a job over that very thing. When you are being bullied at school it is often subtle or sneaky in ways that it becomes your word against theirs. What can a kid do? When it is your hostile neighbor what can you do short of selling your house and moving?

It really boils down to the person on the receiving end of the incivility suffering all the consequences of it while the hateful, malicious, etc. suffers none..

I realize it sounds simplistic but it really does work to stand up to people like this and/or ignore them when possible. If they see they can't get to you, they'll move on to someone else most likely or they may not even realize how bad they are being until you point it out to them. Now, it isn't easy. I hate confrontation. But as long as you don't sink to their level, it can and does work to stand up to them.

I just can't quite join you in that conviction though. Yes. there are many techniques and ways of dealing with difficult people and most of us usually learn how to effectively use those. But when it comes to deliberate and intentional incivility from those determined to be uncivil, we have three choices:
1. Remove that person from the situation.
2. Accept and endure the abuse.
3. Remove ourselves from the situation.

And many in the situation have no power to implement No. 1.

Yes, in some situations that is all we can do. Either accept it or remove ourselves from it. I agree. Luckily, at least in my experience, it isn't really that common for me to be in a situation where the person just can't be dealt with any other way.

And alas, that choice lets the 'bullies' win and the victim incurs the penalty. And again, I have to believe there is a better way.

Yeah, I sure hope so. I have yet to figure out what it is though.

 

[ChrisL]

You can ignore them for the most part but if it is someone you have to work with, that might be more difficult. So keep it to the job and confront them. I know that sounds difficult but I've had success with that before. Just by letting them know, in no uncertain terms, that I'm not going to put up with their shit. As long as I don't sink to their level and don't personally attack them, keep it professional, there is nothing they can do.

I hear you but don't think that is entirely realistic. When it is your boss or supervisor or team members who are engaging in incivility, there is no way to avoid it other than giving up your job. I have in fact quit a job over that very thing. When you are being bullied at school it is often subtle or sneaky in ways that it becomes your word against theirs. What can a kid do? When it is your hostile neighbor what can you do short of selling your house and moving?

It really boils down to the person on the receiving end of the incivility suffering all the consequences of it while the hateful, malicious, etc. suffers none..

I realize it sounds simplistic but it really does work to stand up to people like this and/or ignore them when possible. If they see they can't get to you, they'll move on to someone else most likely or they may not even realize how bad they are being until you point it out to them. Now, it isn't easy. I hate confrontation. But as long as you don't sink to their level, it can and does work to stand up to them.

I just can't quite join you in that conviction though. Yes. there are many techniques and ways of dealing with difficult people and most of us usually learn how to effectively use those. But when it comes to deliberate and intentional incivility from those determined to be uncivil, we have three choices:
1. Remove that person from the situation.
2. Accept and endure the abuse.
3. Remove ourselves from the situation.

And many in the situation have no power to implement No. 1.

Yes, in some situations that is all we can do. Either accept it or remove ourselves from it. I agree. Luckily, at least in my experience, it isn't really that common for me to be in a situation where the person just can't be dealt with any other way.

And alas, that choice lets the 'bullies' win and the victim incurs the penalty. And again, I have to believe there is a better way.

I would say that the best thing to do in a situation where it's a problem at your workplace and management won't intervene, to confront the bully. Perhaps even get others who were victims and all confront that person. That could be embarrassing and a wake-up call to that particular miserable coworker. Of course, you would have to be civil about it, especially in that kind of venue.

 

[Foxfyre]

In the workplace, it would be a much more serious thing. In some instances, it could be considered harassment. Most workplaces have some kind of expectations for behavior so hopefully a person who bullied or was just nasty would be dealt with by management. It's a different story if it's your boss though.

I had a boss like this once. Unfortunately, I had to quit. This was only one time though and I wasn't the only one. Eventually, I found out she was fired and I all I could think to myself was, "karma is a bitch" LOL

On my last job my boss resorted to bullying tactics. Our office doors were side by side and it was about a 30' walk from my desk to his. But instead of asking me to come in or him coming to me to discuss an issue, he sent nasty and really caustic e-mail after e-mail to me. Nothing I could do was 'acceptable'. I know my work was satisfactory because attorneys I worked with would ask for me specifically and I received numerous compliments and notes of appreciation from all of our clients who also asked for me to handle their most difficult cases. I was working straight commission--no benefits of any kind--but I was the highest paid person in the business because of my productivity.

Every time I made a suggestion for how to do things more efficiently or effectively I was unkindly rebuffed or ridiculed or advised to mind my own business. So I would develop my own programs and procedures for improving my own efficiency. The last straw was when I was out of the office and the boss took all those programs and developed apps off my computer. That same night I cleaned out my desk, left a note that could be interpreted "take this job and shove it" and never looked back. Within two weeks I had my own business up and running and made a lot less money, but was a whole bunch happier.

The following year the boss's business went out of business.

All that the boss needed to do is work with me a little, give me a pat on the back now and then, and treat me with respect and we both could have been so happy and productive and prosperous. But. . . .

In that case I don't know which of us suffered most from his incivility, but certainly it did cost me and I still feel the stress just thinking about it. I simply can find no pleasure or value in going out of my way to make somebody else's life more difficult, unpleasant, or miserable. But some people do that. And there should be some way to prevent them from victimizing others when they do.

 

[ChrisL]

In the workplace, it would be a much more serious thing. In some instances, it could be considered harassment. Most workplaces have some kind of expectations for behavior so hopefully a person who bullied or was just nasty would be dealt with by management. It's a different story if it's your boss though.

I had a boss like this once. Unfortunately, I had to quit. This was only one time though and I wasn't the only one. Eventually, I found out she was fired and I all I could think to myself was, "karma is a bitch" LOL

On my last job my boss resorted to bullying tactics. Our office doors were side by side and it was about a 30' walk from my desk to his. But instead of asking me to come in or him coming to me to discuss an issue, he sent nasty and really caustic e-mail after e-mail to me. Nothing I could do was 'acceptable'. I know my work was satisfactory because attorneys I worked with would ask for me specifically and I received numerous compliments and notes of appreciation from all of our clients who also asked for me to handle their most difficult cases. I was working straight commission--no benefits of any kind--but I was the highest paid person in the business because of my productivity.

Every time I made a suggestion for how to do things more efficiently or effectively I was unkindly rebuffed or ridiculed or advised to mind my own business. So I would develop my own programs and procedures for improving my own efficiency. The last straw was when I was out of the office and the boss took all those programs and developed apps off my computer. That same night I cleaned out my desk, left a note that could be interpreted "take this job and shove it" and never looked back. Within two weeks I had my own business up and running and made a lot less money, but was a whole bunch happier.

The following year the boss's business went out of business.

All that the boss needed to do is work with me a little, give me a pat on the back now and then, and treat me with respect and we both could have been so happy and productive and prosperous. But. . . .

In that case I don't know which of us suffered most from his incivility, but certainly it did cost me and I still feel the stress just thinking about it. I simply can find no pleasure or value in going out of my way to make somebody else's life more difficult, unpleasant, or miserable. But some people do that. And there should be some way to prevent them from victimizing others when they do.

That sucks. That is one of the advantages of working from home. No cranky boss over your shoulder all day long.

 

[Foxfyre]

I hear you but don't think that is entirely realistic. When it is your boss or supervisor or team members who are engaging in incivility, there is no way to avoid it other than giving up your job. I have in fact quit a job over that very thing. When you are being bullied at school it is often subtle or sneaky in ways that it becomes your word against theirs. What can a kid do? When it is your hostile neighbor what can you do short of selling your house and moving?

It really boils down to the person on the receiving end of the incivility suffering all the consequences of it while the hateful, malicious, etc. suffers none..

I realize it sounds simplistic but it really does work to stand up to people like this and/or ignore them when possible. If they see they can't get to you, they'll move on to someone else most likely or they may not even realize how bad they are being until you point it out to them. Now, it isn't easy. I hate confrontation. But as long as you don't sink to their level, it can and does work to stand up to them.

I just can't quite join you in that conviction though. Yes. there are many techniques and ways of dealing with difficult people and most of us usually learn how to effectively use those. But when it comes to deliberate and intentional incivility from those determined to be uncivil, we have three choices:
1. Remove that person from the situation.
2. Accept and endure the abuse.
3. Remove ourselves from the situation.

And many in the situation have no power to implement No. 1.

Yes, in some situations that is all we can do. Either accept it or remove ourselves from it. I agree. Luckily, at least in my experience, it isn't really that common for me to be in a situation where the person just can't be dealt with any other way.

And alas, that choice lets the 'bullies' win and the victim incurs the penalty. And again, I have to believe there is a better way.

I would say that the best thing to do in a situation where it's a problem at your workplace and management won't intervene, to confront the bully. Perhaps even get others who were victims and all confront that person. That could be embarrassing and a wake-up call to that particular miserable coworker. Of course, you would have to be civil about it, especially in that kind of venue.

Such interventions are an option in certain situations. But alas, not in all.

 

[Derideo_Te]

In the workplace, it would be a much more serious thing. In some instances, it could be considered harassment. Most workplaces have some kind of expectations for behavior so hopefully a person who bullied or was just nasty would be dealt with by management. It's a different story if it's your boss though.

I had a boss like this once. Unfortunately, I had to quit. This was only one time though and I wasn't the only one. Eventually, I found out she was fired and I all I could think to myself was, "karma is a bitch" LOL

On my last job my boss resorted to bullying tactics. Our office doors were side by side and it was about a 30' walk from my desk to his. But instead of asking me to come in or him coming to me to discuss an issue, he sent nasty and really caustic e-mail after e-mail to me. Nothing I could do was 'acceptable'. I know my work was satisfactory because attorneys I worked with would ask for me specifically and I received numerous compliments and notes of appreciation from all of our clients who also asked for me to handle their most difficult cases. I was working straight commission--no benefits of any kind--but I was the highest paid person in the business because of my productivity.

Every time I made a suggestion for how to do things more efficiently or effectively I was unkindly rebuffed or ridiculed or advised to mind my own business. So I would develop my own programs and procedures for improving my own efficiency. The last straw was when I was out of the office and the boss took all those programs and developed apps off my computer. That same night I cleaned out my desk, left a note that could be interpreted "take this job and shove it" and never looked back. Within two weeks I had my own business up and running and made a lot less money, but was a whole bunch happier.

The following year the boss's business went out of business.

All that the boss needed to do is work with me a little, give me a pat on the back now and then, and treat me with respect and we both could have been so happy and productive and prosperous. But. . . .

In that case I don't know which of us suffered most from his incivility, but certainly it did cost me and I still feel the stress just thinking about it. I simply can find no pleasure or value in going out of my way to make somebody else's life more difficult, unpleasant, or miserable. But some people do that. And there should be some way to prevent them from victimizing others when they do.

Nothing sucks like having an abusive boss.

And nothing is better than walking away from it and never looking back.

Hard to avoid those types if you have been in the workforce for any length of time but it still sucks when you encounter them.

What I don't understand is that HR never does anything about them even when provided with written documentation that proves that they are lying.

So that is I why I don't loose any sleep over them. They exist and there is nothing that I could do other than to find some other place that appreciated my talents.

 

[Statistikhengst]

This venue makes it difficult. It's discussing politics, religion and all kinds of other controversial subject matter. There are bound to be heated disagreements and sometimes cuss words. I hate to sound like a cliche, but my grandfather used to say that if you want to keep your friends then never discuss politics or religion!

I agree with your grandfather that not discussing politics or religion with your friends, except for those you know very very well and can discuss anything, is a really good policy.

Which is why a message board is sometimes our only consistent venue for being able to express our views in such matters and/or test our opinions and convictions about things. I figure if my beliefs won't hold up under scrutiny and/or I cannot defend them, they aren't worth having.

But. . .I had hopes for the SDZ that we would be able to test our ideas and concepts without people making it personal and/or uncivil. It is because people are attacked or criticized personally for expressing an opinion that creates the incivility.

What are our chances that people can learn how to attack the opinion without attacking the person?

What are the odds that people will be able to learn how to distinguish between legitimate criticism of what they actually posted as opposed to always taking the criticism as a personal attack on themselves?

Just because someone is invested in a certain position doesn't mean that criticism of that position is unwarranted. It would be difficult to find any position that was 100% correct in every single aspect that no one would have cause to criticize.

Ergo if you are going to post your position then you have to expect to receive responses. Those responses will vary across the insipid to the insightful spectrum and the onus is us to make that determination without taking them personally and reacting from a position of emotion rather than reason.

So while we might receive both civil and uncivil responses we are free to ignore those that have no merit.

But those that do have merit deserve to be treated as legitimate and we need to examine our own position from the perspective of the legitimate criticism rather than just perceiving it as a personal attack. It doesn't matter how much we are vested in our position if we can't accept the criticism and respond in a civil manner and deal with it then we are better off not posting in the first place IMO.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Indeed. Some of the responses I have received have been quite uncivil, but even among some of them, within the message, was a point of critique at least worth examining.

 

[Mertex]

Where I will quarrel with you a bit is I refuse to believe we can't return to more civil society as the norm. But I do have 'eternal optimist' under my user name. I hope I'm the one who is right about that and hope you are the one who is wrong. I wish I was more secure in my conviction about that though.

I hope you're right, but I'm not sure the general consensus agrees with you. Due to our ever expanding technology, our newer generations have more and more access to outside influence other than mom and dad. They see programs and games on TV, the internet and other technological devices that portray a different image for them and their peers than the one mom and dad do. For many kids, mom and dad seem to appear stodgy and out of date and as hard as we may try to teach them civility/good manners, the behavior they see on TV is more appealing to them. Bad language is acceptable by them and their friends (although they may refrain from its use in front of mom and dad) but once they grow up who is to keep them from continuing to use it.

Part of the problem is in the fact that we are unable to see the incivility in ourselves....and we can't change what we won't admit.


This is an interesting article that I thought was very spot on. Some of the behavior mentioned is already taking place.
One of the most immediate causes for this problem is television. The television has taken over the home. The children think that whatever they see on TV is true and that how everyone on TV acts is the way they are supposed to act. They also think that if they want to be tough like the boy they just saw on TV that they have to act like he does, which is without manners. The girls think if they want to be popular and beautiful they have to dress and act just as rudely as the girl they just saw on the sitcom they were watching. As John Leo puts it, "The “F” word may be the only nasty term left unheard in TV dramas, but that sails out to audiences now and then during post-football interviews and in music award shows[3] Talk to Americans and a picture emerges of a nation addicted to the pleasures of an unruly society -- its emphasis on individual expression, its flouting of convention and its free vent of emotions -- but shocked at the effects of this unruliness and increasingly willing to take action against it.

If something in our society doesn't change soon, then fancy dinner parties will end up in food fights, and you won't be able to go out to dinner without the waiter throwing a cream pie in your face. And, after all this talk on how manners have gotten worse, 99% of Americans say their own behavior is civil. [10]I wonder who it is that is so rude.
CAUSES of Today s Incivility

 

[Foxfyre]

Taking the last line from Mertex's post: ". . .And, after all this talk on how manners have gotten worse, 99% of Americans say their own behavior is civil. [10]I wonder who it is that is so rude."

That is part of the problem I think. It is a kind of unintentional hypocrisy that prompts some to assigned motives or intent to other people, and they feel they are being completely righteous and civil when they do it. And then when the other person objects to whatever motive or intent was assigned, he/she is accused of 'not accepting criticism' and/or being 'uncivil'. And as the old joke goes: that's when the fight started.

The unintended hypocrisy comes in when the person who initiated the personal observations thinks it was perfectly appropriate even though he or she is highly offended when the same thing is done to him/her. We see it in our interpersonal relationships in real life, and we sure see it on message boards.

And that is usually a separate thing from those blatant trolls and jerks who deliberately say insulting things trying to stir up shit in what was a civil discussion.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Yesterday I watched Morgan Freeman's "Are we all bigots?" episode of Through the Wormhole.

Plenty of food for thought there but what struck me the most was the mind game of Give and Take.

In essence you are sitting at a table of strangers and you each put a dollar into the kitty. Then everyone gets to choose if they want to Give or Take.

If they all Give the pot is doubled and shared out equally.

If anyone Take's the largest share of the pot goes to the Takes and the Gives have to share what little is left.

After a couple of rounds it becomes clear that there are some who are selfish and will always take. The Givers end up becoming Takers out of self defense.

Then everyone gets to change tables and play restarts anew. After a couple of rounds the selfish Takers are effectively ostracized because the Givers all benefit equally.

What does the above have to do with the OP topic of incivility?

Well it reminded me of something similar that happened here in USMB not all that long ago.

What was supposed to be a bipartisan and non political thread was consistently being taken advantage of by one side. Eventually the other side chose to leave en masse in protest because they viewed that behavior as uncivil.

(Note: the above is not an ad hom because no groups or individuals have been identified therefore it is not a violation of the OP rules.)

What did we learn from that experience, if anything?

Was it just a case of one side being thin skinned? Was it a failure to enforce the non partisan nature of the thread? Was it a betrayal of trust?

Perhaps this case study can help us identify why each side perceives the other as being uncivil and find ways to overcome the distrust that has replaced the trust that once existed.

Of course that means being an adult and being willing to admit to past mistakes and apologize for them. That is harder than it sounds because some are emotionally invested in their positions. But being an adult means not allowing emotions to stop one from doing what is right.

If we really want to change the paradigm of incivility we are going to have sit down and be adults about how to make that happen IMO.

 

[Foxfyre]

There is also the concept of one side demanding or expecting to be forgiven or no big deal made out of their occasional faux pas but there is no willingness to extend the same tolerance to anybody else.

There is always a degree of proportion in every aspect of our lives--all 'sins' do not result in the same harm in the great scheme of things and much incivility comes from making huge mountains out of molehills.

And of course there is the syndrome of one or two people being the bad actors and everybody else gets punished for that. Also those who allow one bad act or out-of-character incident negate all that has gone before or that follows and/or who draw erroneous assumptions about people's intent or motives and/or try to justify their petulance by persuading others that the target of their anger is a terrible person or persons.

So much incivility would go away if people were more willing to cut others a bit of slack and not demonizing and/or trying to justify demonizing people when they are not perfect.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Incivility will continue if the proffered olive branch is turned into a stick to beat the other side with!

Which makes one question if the desire expressed to end the incivility is sincere or merely just another means to refuse to accept responsibility and berate others for daring to stand on principle after the umpteenth violation.