Debate Now Incivility

[Foxfyre]

Incivility is nothing new.

During the 1980's and 1990's, the House of Representatives allowed members to make after hours speeches on any topic. These 'special orders' were almost always presented to empty seats, and they were carried on Cspan (who wasn't allowed to show the empty seats) so we were able to listen in. And some of these were so angry and vitriolic, they made a body shudder. Bob Dornan of California was there almost every night accusing the Clinton administration. Henry Gonzalez of Texas was there almost every night accusing President Reagan and President G.H.W. Bush.

During the same period, AOL (and other) chat rooms became popular. The political and religion rooms were always packed with people taking advantage of anonymity to say the most outrageous and hateful things to each other. That tradition has seemed to carry over to message boards that have mostly replaced the chat rooms and has become commonplace in our national culture.

“In today’s America, incivility is on prominent display: in the schools, where bullying is pervasive; in the workplace, where an increasing number are more stressed out by coworkers than their jobs; on the roads, where road rage maims and kills; in politics, where strident intolerance takes the place of earnest dialogue; and on the web, where many check their inhibitions at the digital door,” says Pier M. Forni, author of “The Civility Solution: What to Do When People are Rude” and director of The Civility Initiative at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore.

“How in the world can we stop bullying in schools, in the workplace, in politics, when it is so close to our national character right now?” asks Dr. Gary Namie, a psychologist and cofounder of the Workplace Bullying Institute, a Washington state–based nonprofit.​

TOPIC TO BE DISCUSSED:

Why are people uncivil and so often say hateful or insulting or hurtful things to each other in this and other environments? What do they get out of it? Do they hope to accomplish something? Has anybody ever had their mind changed by somebody yelling at them and/or being insulting? What purpose does it serve? Is there some sort of personal satisfaction attached to it? And is this a good thing? Bad thing? Can it harm people? What affect, if anything, does incivility have on others, especially kids?

RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION

1. Stay on topic with no ad hominem or personal insults directed at any specific person or group participating in this discussion or elsewhere.

2. To avoid getting bogged down, for purposes of this discussion only, the OP reserves the right to specify what definitions will be used if there is any dispute about that.

3. If you post a link, please give at least a brief description of what we will learn if we click on that link. Links can be useful, but are not required to express an opinion in this discussion.

 

[Foxfyre]

"In this video, Meenakshi Chakraverti discusses the dangers of incivility in the public forum.

“When it becomes incivility, it does two things: one is it obscures what the real issues are… and the other thing it does that I think is very dangerous is to trigger neuro-psychological responses that create a cycle.”
When Incivility Becomes Dangerous

 

[Alex.]

On the internet because they are powerless or cowardly in RL. In RL because they are in numbers greater than the victim, bigger than the victim or sociopathic. The rude person has an edge over the victim whether it be age, sex, material wealth, education, physicality or the like. Being nice and courteous takes courage in the face of conflict or debate.

 

[Pogo]

It's reasonable to assume you mean specifically within this environment (the Internet) since that's the one we operate in.

Anonymity is part of it, and dismisses social barriers that would otherwise be present, but a lot of it has to do with attempting to converse in a text format, where nuances and inferences are commonly lost and/or open to selective interpretation, or complete misinterpretation.

I'm constantly reminded of why the Amish don't use telephones -- not from a disdain of technology per se, but because it eliminates the visual cues of face-to-face communication and all the body language that goes with it, imparting subtleties and nuance to the speaker's thoughts. And even there we still have a rich palette of nuance in the spoken voice.

Now take even that away and put it into a text box ----- and there's almost nothing left for the right hemisphere of the brain to chew on. It's entirely literal. We have emoticons to help counteract that, for the little good they do.

Take any conversation on any topic on this forum, and start the same conversation face-to-face with the same party -- how many of them would go completely differently in their tone? My guess would be at least 90%.

 

[Foxfyre]

On the internet because they are powerless or cowardly in RL. In RL because they are in numbers greater than the victim, bigger than the victim or sociopathic. The rude person has an edge over the victim whether it be age, sex, material wealth, education, physicality or the like. Being nice and courteous takes courage in the face of conflict or debate.

Do you think powerless or cowardly applies to all though? Some here at USMB seem to be well educated, sensible, well adjusted people with a lot going for them. But these same folks seem to relish being part of the down and dirty threads, or devote most of their time to witty insults or put downs. It almost feels like sport. But I sometimes think it goes way too far and could be dangerous for some who aren't so socially mature or secure.

 

[Pogo]

On the internet because they are powerless or cowardly in RL. In RL because they are in numbers greater than the victim, bigger than the victim or sociopathic. The rude person has an edge over the victim whether it be age, sex, material wealth, education, physicality or the like. Being nice and courteous takes courage in the face of conflict or debate.

"First they ignore you.
Then they laugh at you.
Then they attack you.
... then you win."
--- Ghandi

 

[Gracie]

Other:

Bullying. Due to insecurities, attempting to bring others down into their own misery, social misfits that find humor in someone else's pain. In short....lowlifes.

This is not to be confused with defending oneself. This construes doing this to anyone and everyone just by being insecure in themselves so therefore finding comfort in making others as miserable as they are.

 

[Foxfyre]

It's reasonable to assume you mean specifically within this environment (the Internet) since that's the one we operate in.

Anonymity is part of it, and dismisses social barriers that would otherwise be present, but a lot of it has to do with attempting to converse in a text format, where nuances and inferences are commonly lost and/or open to selective interpretation, or complete misinterpretation.

I'm constantly reminded of why the Amish don't use telephones -- not from a disdain of technology per se, but because it eliminates the visual cues of face-to-face communication and all the body language that goes with it, imparting subtleties and nuance to the speaker's thoughts. And even there we still have a rich palette of nuance in the spoken voice.

Now take even that away and put it into a text box ----- and there's almost nothing left for the right hemisphere of the brain to chew on. It's entirely literal. We have emoticons to help counteract that, for the little good they do.

Take any conversation on any topic on this forum, and start the same conversation face-to-face with the same party -- how many of them would go completely differently in their tone? My guess would be at least 90%.

While my intent was not to limit the discussion to USMB or this kind of environment, I can agree with this in part. I have been misunderstood, mischaracterized, and misjudged in this environment more than I ever imagined I deserved. And while some are able to appreciate that I did not mean it as they initially took it, some are not. And some I don't even try to explain any more because it has become such an exercise in futility.

But you may be more charitable here than I can honestly be. Some posts aren't because somebody took something wrong. Some are premeditated and fully intended personal insults intended to stir up sh*t. And more often than not they succeed.

I try hard not to take that kind of bait myself--I don't always succeed--but I honestly don't understand how that is fun for some?

 

[Gracie]

Some here at USMB seem to be well educated, sensible, well adjusted people with a lot going for them. But these same folks seem to relish being part of the down and dirty threads, or devote most of their time to witty insults or put downs.

I knew a nurse once. This woman cared for patients, looked out for their health (mental and physical), had those patients lives in their hands in some cases. But this nurse also fished for info on people on a message board that she decided she did not like. She befriended people, got them to talk to her privately and on the phone, collecting all the info she could. Then, she would post all they told her, all she knew of their medical problems, and laugh. She had company too, who would laugh with her.

You choose your friends in RL because you get to know them over time and SEE who and what they are. Online....whole different ballgame.

All I can say is..I am glad she lived in another state. I can imagine the horror if that woman did the same to patients in a hospital if they ticked her off.

 

[Foxfyre]

Other:

Bullying. Due to insecurities, attempting to bring others down into their own misery, social misfits that find humor in someone else's pain. In short....lowlifes.

This is not to be confused with defending oneself. This construes doing this to anyone and everyone just by being insecure in themselves so therefore finding comfort in making others as miserable as they are.

I think you sometimes get a sense about people after interacting with them for awhile in this strange environment. And some I truly do fear for when somebody really gets on their case with post after post after post of angry accusations and characterizations. It seems almost unreasonable that anybody would take all this all that seriously, but with some of these kids, I honestly don't know.

 

[Foxfyre]

On the internet because they are powerless or cowardly in RL. In RL because they are in numbers greater than the victim, bigger than the victim or sociopathic. The rude person has an edge over the victim whether it be age, sex, material wealth, education, physicality or the like. Being nice and courteous takes courage in the face of conflict or debate.

"First they ignore you.
Then they laugh at you.
Then they attack you.
... then you win."
--- Ghandi

I confess to a bit of arrogance in my belief that when my 'opponent' in a debate stops arguing the subject and starts attacking me personally, I know he or she is out of ammo and I justifiably won the argument.

 

[Gracie]

Foxfyre....the net is a whole new world. New rules, same people. The net has helped me very much in many areas. In others, it has made me wary and secretive, careful and paranoid.

All I can say is..USUALLY, one can tell what someone is truly like by the things they post over time. But sometimes the ones you think are sane? Aren't. Good actors. On the net, best thing to do is keep yer guard up. If you don't think they would be a real friend in RL, then you damn sure don't want them as one on the net.

 

[Pogo]

It's reasonable to assume you mean specifically within this environment (the Internet) since that's the one we operate in.

Anonymity is part of it, and dismisses social barriers that would otherwise be present, but a lot of it has to do with attempting to converse in a text format, where nuances and inferences are commonly lost and/or open to selective interpretation, or complete misinterpretation.

I'm constantly reminded of why the Amish don't use telephones -- not from a disdain of technology per se, but because it eliminates the visual cues of face-to-face communication and all the body language that goes with it, imparting subtleties and nuance to the speaker's thoughts. And even there we still have a rich palette of nuance in the spoken voice.

Now take even that away and put it into a text box ----- and there's almost nothing left for the right hemisphere of the brain to chew on. It's entirely literal. We have emoticons to help counteract that, for the little good they do.

Take any conversation on any topic on this forum, and start the same conversation face-to-face with the same party -- how many of them would go completely differently in their tone? My guess would be at least 90%.

While my intent was not to limit the discussion to USMB or this kind of environment, I can agree with this in part. I have been misunderstood, mischaracterized, and misjudged in this environment more than I ever imagined I deserved. And while some are able to appreciate that I did not mean it as they initially took it, some are not. And some I don't even try to explain any more because it has become such an exercise in futility.

But you may be more charitable here than I can honestly be. Some posts aren't because somebody took something wrong. Some are premeditated and fully intended personal insults intended to stir up sh*t. And more often than not they succeed.

I try hard not to take that kind of bait myself--I don't always succeed--but I honestly don't understand how that is fun for some?

I suppose this is the question of "pro-active" incivility, as opposed to the more passive question of why it flourishes. Here I think we're back to Anonymity releasing the social construct that is the norm in human communication. That's an unnatural mode -- when we transcend what Nature gave us through technology, there is a price we pay.

As far as why some instigators deliberately set out to foment it, I think that goes right back to your Options 8 and 9 above; they are sociopaths. And sociopaths will be especially drawn to an environment that releases them to practice their sociopathology, hence they will be overrepresented on an internet message board.

 

[Pogo]

On the internet because they are powerless or cowardly in RL. In RL because they are in numbers greater than the victim, bigger than the victim or sociopathic. The rude person has an edge over the victim whether it be age, sex, material wealth, education, physicality or the like. Being nice and courteous takes courage in the face of conflict or debate.

"First they ignore you.
Then they laugh at you.
Then they attack you.
... then you win."
--- Ghandi

I confess to a bit of arrogance in my belief that when my 'opponent' in a debate stops arguing the subject and starts attacking me personally, I know he or she is out of ammo and I justifiably won the argument.

Agreed, but I wouldn't call that "arrogance" -- I'd call it "wisdom".
You'd only be arrogant if you then rubbed it in.

 

[Foxfyre]

Some here at USMB seem to be well educated, sensible, well adjusted people with a lot going for them. But these same folks seem to relish being part of the down and dirty threads, or devote most of their time to witty insults or put downs.

I knew a nurse once. This woman cared for patients, looked out for their health (mental and physical), had those patients lives in their hands in some cases. But this nurse also fished for info on people on a message board that she decided she did not like. She befriended people, got them to talk to her privately and on the phone, collecting all the info she could. Then, she would post all they told her, all she knew of their medical problems, and laugh. She had company too, who would laugh with her.

You choose your friends in RL because you get to know them over time and SEE who and what they are. Online....whole different ballgame.

All I can say is..I am glad she lived in another state. I can imagine the horror if that woman did the same to patients in a hospital if they ticked her off.

And there really is no defense against that kind of thing either--I think there should be. I look at Rumor Willis on the DWTS season just ended who was something of a 'misfit' in her family of glamorous gorgeous parents and who relates how much she was bullied in real life and on social media. Her mom said just before the finals that she was aware of it and knew how much it was hurting Rumor, but she had no way to stop it. All she could do was love Rumor as much as she could until Rumor was able to love herself.

 

[Foxfyre]

On the internet because they are powerless or cowardly in RL. In RL because they are in numbers greater than the victim, bigger than the victim or sociopathic. The rude person has an edge over the victim whether it be age, sex, material wealth, education, physicality or the like. Being nice and courteous takes courage in the face of conflict or debate.

"First they ignore you.
Then they laugh at you.
Then they attack you.
... then you win."
--- Ghandi

I confess to a bit of arrogance in my belief that when my 'opponent' in a debate stops arguing the subject and starts attacking me personally, I know he or she is out of ammo and I justifiably won the argument.

Agreed, but I wouldn't call that "arrogance" -- I'd call it "wisdom".
You'd only be arrogant if you then rubbed it in.

Well. . . I get to at least announce I won don't I? But agreed. Once done, it is best dropped and move on.

 

[Gracie]

Rumor rocks. She is a sweetheart. She was blessed with her moms face and her dad's jaw and has a killer body. "Social" media (social. What an oxymoron that word is) had issues with her pluses..hence the bullying. Because that is what it all boils down to. Jealousy..and bullies.

 

[Foxfyre]

It's reasonable to assume you mean specifically within this environment (the Internet) since that's the one we operate in.

Anonymity is part of it, and dismisses social barriers that would otherwise be present, but a lot of it has to do with attempting to converse in a text format, where nuances and inferences are commonly lost and/or open to selective interpretation, or complete misinterpretation.

I'm constantly reminded of why the Amish don't use telephones -- not from a disdain of technology per se, but because it eliminates the visual cues of face-to-face communication and all the body language that goes with it, imparting subtleties and nuance to the speaker's thoughts. And even there we still have a rich palette of nuance in the spoken voice.

Now take even that away and put it into a text box ----- and there's almost nothing left for the right hemisphere of the brain to chew on. It's entirely literal. We have emoticons to help counteract that, for the little good they do.

Take any conversation on any topic on this forum, and start the same conversation face-to-face with the same party -- how many of them would go completely differently in their tone? My guess would be at least 90%.

While my intent was not to limit the discussion to USMB or this kind of environment, I can agree with this in part. I have been misunderstood, mischaracterized, and misjudged in this environment more than I ever imagined I deserved. And while some are able to appreciate that I did not mean it as they initially took it, some are not. And some I don't even try to explain any more because it has become such an exercise in futility.

But you may be more charitable here than I can honestly be. Some posts aren't because somebody took something wrong. Some are premeditated and fully intended personal insults intended to stir up sh*t. And more often than not they succeed.

I try hard not to take that kind of bait myself--I don't always succeed--but I honestly don't understand how that is fun for some?

I suppose this is the question of "pro-active" incivility, as opposed to the more passive question of why it flourishes. Here I think we're back to Anonymity releasing the social construct that is the norm in human communication. That's an unnatural mode -- when we transcend what Nature gave us through technology, there is a price we pay.

As far as why some instigators deliberately set out to foment it, I think that goes right back to your Options 8 and 9 above; they are sociopaths. And sociopaths will be especially drawn to an environment that releases them to practice their sociopathology, hence they will be overrepresented on an internet message board.

Maybe. But as I posted to Alex, I have a really hard time believing some folks here are sociopathic or even anti social. But they nevertheless seem to participate in the food fights as sport. And that is totally mystifying to me as I very much enjoy the exercise of debate with a worthy opponent, but very much do not enjoy it when things get ugly. I have developed a much tougher skin over the years and don't let other people dictate how I am supposed to think, respond, or relate to somebody else, but insulting or hurting people is not sport to me.

 

[Gracie]

You know when friends are punching each other in the arm and spouting witty comebacks to each other and it is just funny and fun to watch? That is what I enjoy. Because it is harmless between pals just playing around. When it resorts to them not punching each other in the arm or spouting off witty retorts to each other and they take it to someone just walking by or sitting near them in a cafe...it is no longer so fun to see or experience if you wind up being in the wrong seat or walking by at the wrong time. That is not sport. That is bullying. It all comes down to that and only that. People who NEED to cause pain to someone else, regardless. Sorta like the Sucker Punch game. Walk by someone minding their own business and just sock them to watch them fall so you can laugh.
Thats some seriously sick behavior and majorly ANTI social.

 

[Foxfyre]

Foxfyre....the net is a whole new world. New rules, same people. The net has helped me very much in many areas. In others, it has made me wary and secretive, careful and paranoid.

All I can say is..USUALLY, one can tell what someone is truly like by the things they post over time. But sometimes the ones you think are sane? Aren't. Good actors. On the net, best thing to do is keep yer guard up. If you don't think they would be a real friend in RL, then you damn sure don't want them as one on the net.

Yes. Some I just steer clear of. But I prefer to take the risk with most people, and am no longer as devastated when they betray my trust, but it still hurts when they do. It hurts when you trust somebody with your friendship and they turn on you with no apparent provocation and I can no longer respect them. I guess I don't WANT to get to the point I don't care about that.

I have more than 300 folks befriended on social media and there isn't a single one of them who has posted anything hurtful or inappropriate to me or about me or I about them. But I guess I'm lucky when I read about all the people who are viciously bullied in that medium. Social media is really public but the vicious people are out there.

And here in the anonymity of the message board, people seem even bolder in saying hateful and hurtful things or spreading malicious rumors. And there is absolutely no defense for that. I don't worry about it myself, but I do fear the effect it can have on people who are less experienced, more vulnerable, not ready to handle stuff like that.