Idaho Student Says Teacher Tossed His Mexican Flag in Trash

[ReillyT]

Reality does not intrude into a liberals thinking process.

Ah... the hypocrite is back. I missed you sweetums.

 

[Ravi]

Perhaps you misunderstood the intent of my statement (or maybe you didn't). What I meant is that it should be irrelevant why the kid is unpopular, not that adequate supervision entails complete safety.

While it may not be possible to safeguard the welfare of every child at every moment, there remain adequate levels of supervision and inadequate levels of supervision. With adequate levels of supervision and intervention, kids can remain generally safe at school. This is true whether a kid gets bullied for wearing a SF 49s jersey, being a minority, answering too many questions in math class, or carrying a Mexican flag. I don't think the answer is to prohibit anything that could set another 15 year old off.

But, but Reilly! That would entail teaching tolerance and we wouldn't want that!

 

[Annie]

But, but Reilly! That would entail teaching tolerance and we wouldn't want that!

Actually, I doubt you can find middle or high schools that doesn't teach tolerance, personally I use this program from the Southern Poverty Law Center. Great resource materials and it does reach the kids, on certain levels. They KNOW when others are wrong, sometimes just have problems seeing it in themselves.

http://www.tolerance.org/

 

[Shogun]

While I firmly do not support the droves of mexicans in the US illegally I just don't see a viable reason to have taken the kids mexican flag without some sort of disruption beyond merely having it. I love Cinco de Mayo just like I love St. Pats day and Oktoberfest. Id call it a wee bit of an overreaction on the teachers part.

 

[Ravi]

Actually, I doubt you can find middle or high schools that don't teach tolerance, personally I use this program from the Southern Poverty Law Center. Great resource materials and it does reach the kids, on certain levels. They KNOW when others are wrong, sometimes just have problems seeing it in themselves.

http://www.tolerance.org/

It would seem to me that instead of throwing this guy's flag into the trash the teacher could have used it to teach tolerance, no? If he even needed to...I haven't seen any evidence in the news that there are racial tensions at this school.

 

[Annie]

It would seem to me that instead of throwing this guy's flag into the trash the teacher could have used it to teach tolerance, no? If he even needed to...I haven't seen any evidence in the news that there are racial tensions at this school.

I wouldn't disagree with that, but few coaches get that type of opportunity.

 

[Doug]

Kathianne: I am surprised you use material from the Southern Poverty Law Center in your classes, which is a leftist outfit whose anti-conservative worldview is reflected in almost everything they write, as in this book review, for example. They quite deliberately blur the line between violent racists, and people who are concerned about mass illiegal Third World immigration into the US. Although they include a few extremist Black organizations in their list of "hate groups," they alibi them, and it's clear that their entire focus is against whites and Christians.

 

[Annie]

Kathianne: I am surprised you use material from the Southern Poverty Law Center in your classes, which is a leftist outfit whose anti-conservative worldview is reflected in almost everything they write, as in this book review, for example. They quite deliberately blur the line between violent racists, and people who are concerned about mass illiegal Third World immigration into the US. Although they include a few extremist Black organizations in their list of "hate groups," they alibi them, and it's clear that their entire focus is against whites and Christians.

I haven't found the SPLC to be a problem regarding teaching my classes. The materials are good and underwritten by the center. The materials I received on Rosa Parks and Civil Rights taught just the lessons I wanted.

I teach in a Catholic school, part of the school mission is to work for justice in all aspects of our lives. I've successfully used quite of few of the lessons from the organization, this year the biggest 'hit' was this one:

http://www.tolerance.org/teach/activities/activity.jsp?ar=902

 

[BrianH]

Why do you think that? In some places they can even sue for unpaid wages.



They celebrate cinqo de mayo for the same reasons Irish people celebrate St. Paddy's Day; Jews celebrate Israeli independence day; Italians love Columbus Day; Germans enjoying Oktoberfest; etc... it's just a way of celebrating one's heritage and having a good time. Nothing nefarious about it.


Nope... the first amendment prohibits the state fostering religion; nothing about celebrating ethnicity... unless of course you think municipalities should stop paying for st paddy's day parades.

The flag of Mexico has nothing to do with celebrating ethnicity or heritage...it celebrates a battle that took place in Mexico. You don't see the Mexico celebrating the 4th of July do you? So if you wave an American flag, does that establish what ethnicity you are??

And of course he did nothing to reinforce the hostility, right? perhaps he'd have done better to "save the kid a beating" by talking about his culture and reinforcing tolerance. Gee...what a concept.

You don't punish children when they're ATTACKED by bullies. You punish the BULLIES.

You can't punish Bullies before they bully someone...so he got rid of something that would cause bullying. I'll agree that the teacher should not have thrown it in the trash, but he was right in taking the flag up. Knowing school-aged children, I'm sure the student wasn't innocently wearing the Mexican flag and just peacefully going about his day. He was most likely waving it around and saying "viva mexico!" and showing everyone his flags...(no proof, but this is what students do). Anything that is brought to school is paraded around for everyone to see....this alone would foster hostilities.

*skip*



Yes, there is...the fact that anyone thinks it was okay.

I think the "way" the teacher handled it was wrong....he should not have thrown it away and said the things he said, however, he was right to take up the flag. He should have told the student why he was taking it up and told him to come get it at the end of school. THey do the same thing with cell-phones, hats, and other things the school doesn't wish to see at school.

As far as the flag, it would be perfectly ok for a student to bring a confederate flag to school because his ancestors fought for the Confederacy (you can only imagine the reception this would have.). The school grounds are not an appropriate place to celebrate your heritage. The students are their to learn. Now, if the student had done a project over Mexico designed to teach other kids about it, that's one thing, but parading a MExican flag around at school is a different story. Like I said, if teachers can be fired for hanging up a George Bush poster in his/her history class, then a student should not be able to carry around a Mexican flag. Why does a teacher have less rights than a student?

 

[BrianH]

School students are allowed to advocate religion so long as it is not in a disruptive manner. A kid can wear a tee-shirt to school with a cross on it, or carry a bible or Koran around with him/her. The problem occurs when the school tries to prevent kids from advocating their religion, or advocates it itself.

Don't you mean that a kid can wear that until an Athiest student starts complaining about the teachers/school system allowing them to?

A child's freedom of speech in school depends on the level of disruption the speech causes. Carrying a flag around is probably okay, but cursing at teachers is obviously not. The former is protected while the latter is not. The problem isn't the 1st Amendment, it is inadequate supervision in the schools.

That's exactly what I said, but in different words. They do not have the freedom of speech (meaning they cannot say whatever they want, whenever they want.)

Are you kidding???? You obviously don't work in a school. The problem is not supervision...the problem is people (such as yourself) that blame the school system for their children's problems that obviously derive from their home-lives. The problem comes from parents not disciplining their kids at home for anything. Then the students come to school, and don't respond well to some "stranger'/teacher disciplining them.

Say Shogun walks into class smoking a cigarette. And Rielly T (The teacher) says "Shogun, bring that cigarette here!"
Shogun respons "Fuck You Teach...I'll give you a cigarette you can shove up your ass."
ReillyT says, "Go to the office Shogun."
Shogun says, "Make me Fuck head."

What then ReillyT??? Where's your supervision skills? Oh that's right, supervision has nothing to do with it.

What then ReillyT? Does that fall under poor supervision. You caught him smoking, and he told you to put it in you ass. The problem is the refusal of students to follow rules and accept punishments....and on top of that, the discipline is not backed up by the parents. The parents come to their kids rescue even if their kid did do something wrong.

 

[Contessa_Sharra]

Racism a reality in most of North Idaho

Written by Ryan West -Guest columnist

Tuesday, 13 February 2007

I couldn’t help but laugh at the first few lines of the staff editorial on Feb. 2 (“Take advantage of cultural events”). Not that it wasn’t correct — Hayden Lake doesn’t have the raging Nazi-heads anymore — but the discussion of Idaho’s less than stellar background in the minority rights category was what made me smirk.


I moved from southern California to North Idaho when I was in high school. Looking back on my time there some four years later, I can’t help but wonder if the Aryan Nations leaving the area even made a difference. I can remember hearing about the parade protests and the people angry that they were getting hate-literature in their mailboxes. I can remember being shocked when we got our first piece of hate mail.

I also remember going to school and not seeing a single African American person for over a year. I remember my high school history teacher being shocked to hear that, where I grew up, whites were the racial minority. He was shocked so much, in fact, that he questioned the validity of a paper I wrote on that very subject.

I remember coming out to some of my peers up there too, and losing what I thought was the closest knit group of friends I had ever had based on a sexual preference. I remember hearing the words “n——r” and “f——t” used in every other sentence by male and female students (and some staff in passing, too). I remember my younger siblings wondering why mom and dad said it was okay for their big brother to be gay when their peers and people out on the streets didn’t.

I know that some people will read this and think “Well I grew up around there, and I never experienced that type of behavior.” That’s fine. They’re either fortunate or oblivious. But when I go home for the holidays and hear my younger brother make a racist joke without batting an eyelash, or hear the lady in front of me at Starbucks make a snide comment to her friend that some “damn Mexican” is working the register I think to myself that I can’t just be in all the wrong places at the wrong times.

There are no coincidences, just unfortunate moments where you realize that certain parts of certain places have gone through little cultural progression in the past 50 years. North Idaho might be expanding and becoming more modern, but the heart and soul of that area remains the same. And it frightens me sometimes.

I hope that as many people as possible visit the Office of Multicultural Affairs once in a while and punch their friends in the arm when they’re playing XBox and say “Dude, that joke was NOT cool.”

I am fortunate to have truly found friends and coworkers that embody this new idea of open spaces and open minds. How many people can say the same?

Has Idaho really changed? Maybe. At least some of it has. But I’m still waiting for other parts of it to catch up.

Ryan West is a junior journalism major at the University of Idaho. He also works for Blot! magazine.

http://www.uiargonaut.com/content/view/3201/44/

--------------------------------------------------------------
​

Incidentally, in the whole state of Idaho there are only about 11,000 black people and 150,000 hispanics, most who came recently as crop workers, etc.

Total statepopulation is about 1,500,000, 86% "white - not hispanic..." acording to 2006 census stats.

He may not be there but it is still Randy Weaver country.

 

[ReillyT]

Don't you mean that a kid can wear that until an Athiest student starts complaining about the teachers/school system allowing them to?

If that is what I had meant, that is what I would have said. Students are allowed to express their religious belief in school, so long as it is not disruptive. Is it possible that sometimes their rights are violated? Sure, just like you would violate the rights of this kid in Idaho. Sometimes the rules aren't followed and people get away with it.

That's exactly what I said, but in different words. They do not have the freedom of speech (meaning they cannot say whatever they want, whenever they want.)

Students don't have complete freedom of speech, but they do have certain rights to free expression that are protected by the Constitution. I already posted a case on this.

Are you kidding???? You obviously don't work in a school. The problem is not supervision...the problem is people (such as yourself) that blame the school system for their children's problems that obviously derive from their home-lives. The problem comes from parents not disciplining their kids at home for anything. Then the students come to school, and don't respond well to some "stranger'/teacher disciplining them.

I used to work in a school. Fine, you don't want to blame the school and want to lay it on the parents. I have no problem with that. There is plenty of blame to go around. I think everybody gets some. However, to some extent, the problem also lies with schools (some of them at least) and inadequate levels of supervision.

Say Shogun walks into class smoking a cigarette. And Rielly T (The teacher) says "Shogun, bring that cigarette here!"
Shogun respons "Fuck You Teach...I'll give you a cigarette you can shove up your ass."
ReillyT says, "Go to the office Shogun."
Shogun says, "Make me Fuck head."

What then ReillyT??? Where's your supervision skills? Oh that's right, supervision has nothing to do with it.

Lovely little story. Has absolutely nothing with the 1st Amendment rights of kids to carry a Mexican flag, but nice story nonetheless.

BTW, I have had situations occur in my class that resembled this.

What then ReillyT? Does that fall under poor supervision. You caught him smoking, and he told you to put it in you ass. The problem is the refusal of students to follow rules and accept punishments....and on top of that, the discipline is not backed up by the parents. The parents come to their kids rescue even if their kid did do something wrong.

Once again... this has nothing to do with what we are talking about. You want to blame this on the parents, I am sure that in some circumstances you are right. Infringing on the first amendment rights of children to silently and passively express isn't going to solve this problem. In fact, it isn't even remotely relevant.

 

[Dogger]

Getting back to the original topic, if we don't teach kids xenophobia in school, they'll just wind up learning it on the streets.

 

[ReillyT]

Getting back to the original topic, if we don't teach kids xenophobia in school, they'll just wind up learning it on the streets.

I applaud you for seeing the big picture.

 

[ReillyT]

The school grounds are not an appropriate place to celebrate your heritage. The students are their to learn.

That is a reasonable position to have. However, it is not the correct legal position.

Topical education is not the only purpose schools serve, and not the only one that everyone would agree schools should serve. They also socialize students, impart morality, help students develop emotionally, teach civic commitment and responsibility, etc. Schools do this whether we think of it as their primary mission or not. One could argue that allowing students a measure of their 1st Amendment rights advances some of these purposes, even if we neglect the fact that these are rights.

Like I said, if teachers can be fired for hanging up a George Bush poster in his/her history class, then a student should not be able to carry around a Mexican flag. Why does a teacher have less rights than a student?

I don't know about the G. Bush thing, but generally students have greater rights (at least w/ respect to 1st Amendment) than their teachers b/c teachers act on behalf of the school, and thus the state (if the school is public). Hence, teachers as state employees are restricted in their rights while working and students are not.

 

[Ravi]

Brian, can you link to the story about the Bush picture being banned from a classroom?

I really can't for the life of me see why this flag thing is being taken as anything other than some kid celebrating his heritage. What if the flag was part of his t-shirt, would he have to remove it? This is really silly and makes people look like frightened little children.

 

[Annie]

That is a reasonable position to have. However, it is not the correct legal position.

Topical education is not the only purpose schools serve, and not the only one that everyone would agree schools should serve. They also socialize students, impart morality, help students develop emotionally, teach civic commitment and responsibility, etc. Schools do this whether we think of it as their primary mission or not. One could argue that allowing students a measure of their 1st Amendment rights advances some of these purposes, even if we neglect the fact that these are rights.




I don't know about the G. Bush thing, but generally students have greater rights (at least w/ respect to 1st Amendment) than their teachers b/c teachers act on behalf of the school, and thus the state (if the school is public). Hence, teachers as state employees are restricted in their rights while working and students are not.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but what the effect of the laws have been is to make schools less safe, more chaotic, and less successful, but you are right, it's the law.

 

[ReillyT]

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but what the effect of the laws have been is to make schools less safe, more chaotic, and less successful, but you are right, it's the law.

I don't think this aspect of the 1st Amendment has made schools less safe. However, I think it is possible that the threat of lawsuits generally (from parents unhappy with their child's grade, over every disciplinary action, etc.) has had an effect on the ability of schools to provide discipline. There I would probably agree with you.

 

[Ravi]

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but what the effect of the laws have been is to make schools less safe, more chaotic, and less successful, but you are right, it's the law.

Do you really think so? I think just the opposite, we've become so paranoid that we make everything into an issue. If it's such a problem, make the kids wear uniforms, issue them what they are allowed to bring to school, and have a zero tolerance policy for anything outside the rules. Just keep in mind that when you curb innocent activities you just are pushing kids to act out in other ways.

 

[ReillyT]

Do you really think so? I think just the opposite, we've become so paranoid that we make everything into an issue. If it's such a problem, make the kids wear uniforms, issue them what they are allowed to bring to school, and have a zero tolerance policy for anything outside the rules. Just keep in mind that when you curb innocent activities you just are pushing kids to act out in other ways.

Do you think so? I would guess that discipline was harsher in schools in the fifties (just my guess), but I don't think high school kids acted out more. Based on the stories I remember from Mr. Huxtable in the Cosby show, they acted out less.