How did you reach your conclusion

[Truthspeaker]

Miracles

I have been convinced and absolutely nothing can change that

I have no respect for you at all if your mind is completely closed to new evidence,

Oh really, so you're willing to look at new evidence? This should be good. Most established scientists have a hard time accepting new evidences when it conflicts with their agendas, dogmas and preconceived notions.

 

[Truthspeaker]

your vantage point does not change the mountain, only your understanding of it.

Yet the mountain doesn't exist until someone sees the world in which it resides.

Physics will really fuck with your philosophy.

Great, a tree falling in the forest guy. A guy who at times has argued away his own existence because someone else hasn't seen him. His credibility is therefore nonexistent until someone can actually witness it.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Would you supply a link for that please?

Here ya go....

Thanks for the link....but did you not read this:

This coin is believed to have been brought to Tiberias from Constantinople where it was minted by a Christian pilgrim around the 11th century. It's backside bears the inscription "Jesus Christ King of Kings."

The moment I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior.


Before then I was in and out of jail and not a penny to my name. Now I have a net worth of 2. 8 million, I own four thousand acres of land 800 head of cattle, twelve horses, two businesses, (one a bail bond agency I recently started another one a investment recovery firm that I co-own). I've retired after twenty years from Boots and Coots International Well Control formerly Red Adair IWC and began a second career with an Engineering/Construction firm.

Odd that you should get you all that yet your god allows African children to die for the want of a glass of clean water.

Your view is so narrow. I've never understood why God cannot exist simply because people suffer. This is only a phase. In fact it's one of the great testimonies that he does exist. The purpose of existence is to achieve eternal joy. But the only way that can be had is if we experience suffering. There is no suffering in God's kingdom so where else would we learn it? Only here; where we would learn what pain, suffering, deprivation, hate, disease and all their opposites feel like. The big picture in eternity is what explains this life's injustices. I'm really glad I know that. It's made my life here infinitely better.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Yet the mountain doesn't exist until someone sees the world in which it resides.

Physics will really fuck with your philosophy.

No, objective. It exists whether we want it to, see it, experience it or not.

Not quite. Look up the double slit experiment, probability waves, and the significance of the observer in the collapsing of that wave into a single reality. As I said, physics will fuck with your philosophy.

Wave function collapse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Otherwise, nothing would exist beyond our own experience

You cannot know whether anything exists beyond your own experience.

. There would be no reason to explore for nothing would exist there to find. It is independent of us.

It becomes a mission both of discovery and possibly creation (at least, if the current models hold true )

Just because physics has had such an effect on your brain doesn't mean that it has such an effect on ours

 

[Truthspeaker]

Therefore it is independent of my experience for it to exist.

You're still assuming it exists at all.

I suggest looking up logical positivism (the foundation of my philosophical perspective)

Ok socrates, maybe I can help you a little with your condition. Just because certain societies didn't know pluto existed 2000 years ago, doesn't mean Pluto didn't exist capeesh?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

your vantage point does not change the mountain, only your understanding of it.

Yet the mountain doesn't exist until someone sees the world in which it resides.

Physics will really fuck with your philosophy.

Great, a tree falling in the forest guy. A guy who at times has argued away his own existence because someone else hasn't seen him. His credibility is therefore nonexistent until someone can actually witness it.

All things exist in all states until the wave function collapses

 

[☭proletarian☭]

I have been convinced and absolutely nothing can change that

I have no respect for you at all if your mind is completely closed to new evidence,

Oh really, so you're willing to look at new evidence? This should be good. Most established scientists have a hard time accepting new evidences when it conflicts with their agendas, dogmas and preconceived notions.

Do you have anything to back up your blanket accusation?

 

[☭proletarian☭]

There is an intelligence at the base of every creation a

Only you have spoken of any 'creation'

 

[Truthspeaker]

e must have the untainted choice to choose freely to love God, otherwise it is spiritual coercion and thereby invalidates the basic premise of love.

And saying 'love me or I'll throw you into lava and let you burn forever' isn't spiritual cooercion that invalidates the basic premise of that 'love'?

You just deconstructed the entire Abrahamic religion in all its forms.

You understand so little of the love of God. God doesn't threaten us. He warns us of the consequences of our actions. Where ever we go in eternity will be our own choosing. We will go wherever our hearts true desires are. To live with God who we sought out, got to know and loved; Or to a different society who decided they didn't want him in their life.

and by the way, it's not a literal lake of fire and brimstone. It's a burning guilt that never leaves throughout eternity. Knowing that we could have done better but simply preferred the alternatives to God's instruction.

 

[uscitizen]

Therefore it is independent of my experience for it to exist.

You're still assuming it exists at all.

I suggest looking up logical positivism (the foundation of my philosophical perspective)

Ok socrates, maybe I can help you a little with your condition. Just because certain societies didn't know pluto existed 2000 years ago, doesn't mean Pluto didn't exist capeesh?

What has Mickey Mouse's dog got to do with this?

 

[Truthspeaker]

your god allows them die when he can prevent it, then it becomes his responsibility.

He has prevented it from happening again in eternity. For now we have to suffer in different ways to learn to fully appreciate the painless physical life to come.

At the end of the day, your god allegedly has the power to end all suffering here and now....in an instant. Failure to do that leads to the thoughts of Epicurus.

His timing is perfect. We will all see the wisdom of it in the end. Meanwhile there are still spirits waiting for their time to be born and have their experiences before the end is to come.

I have spent many years working voluntarily with the starving in Somalia, Darfur, Mozambique and Ethiopia.

I'm glad to hear that you do those things. That is the religion of Christ. You are already living it and if that is the goodness of your heart and die without learning anything more, it's going to be well with you at the last day.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

e must have the untainted choice to choose freely to love God, otherwise it is spiritual coercion and thereby invalidates the basic premise of love.

And saying 'love me or I'll throw you into lava and let you burn forever' isn't spiritual cooercion that invalidates the basic premise of that 'love'?

You just deconstructed the entire Abrahamic religion in all its forms.

You understand so little of the love of God. God doesn't threaten us. He warns us of the consequences of our actions.

'I wasn't threatening the store clerk with the gun, I was just warning him that the consequence of not giving the money would be me shooting him in his fucking face.'

riiiiight....

 

[☭proletarian☭]

Poor TS... I'm handing you an apologist argument far better than anything you've come up with in a fucking gift box and you still aren't smart enough to use it.

I tried to help you...

 

[Truthspeaker]

That your God/faith or lack thereof was correct?

I am agnostic, throughout the ages mankind has had the need to create the idea of a God or Gods to help explain those things that he didnt undestand and to deal with the fear of death, there have been many Gods but believers seem to think that their particular God is the correct one, it all seems as childish as believing in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy to me.

Have you really searced all the doctrines out there or have you just assumed they are all wrong?

If you really want to know if there is a God, I would search endlessly until I found him. Starting with the religions. I would weigh their teachings and see if they make sense and if none of them did, I would search for God elsewhere.

But if I didn't care if God existed or not, I'd just go galavanting and do my own thing with no thought for the consequences.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Perhaps Santa is a better analogy than people realize. Who know who Saint Nikolas was, that he existed, and that he inspired people. We know that the current image of him was invented by Coca-Cola to sell soda and reindeer don't fly.

Perheps the evolution of the Santa myth isn't so far off from the story of religions- hell, it's even used as a means of social control, as children are told this all-seeing-eye rewards them if they're good but not if they misbehave. It resembles some older Jerwish/Christian traditions which had no hell, but rather taught that bad people got nothing- the oblivion of the Outer Darkness.

It all depends on how you teach the child. You don't have to lie. You can tell the truth and let them still entertain the story for it's lessons. it's true that the original doctrine of hell which Jesus taught is far different from the one crammed down most people's throats by ignorant pastors and zealots.

 

[Truthspeaker]

What if we simply 'evolved' survival of the fittest style?

It is a theory that the history fits.​

So you have not drawn any conclusions then? Then you don't belong on this thread.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Science does help, but it seems that we all poick and choose what part of science to accept as final fact. Even science has to recant, retest, and form new conclusions.

Yes, honest people admit when they're wrong. Our friends at church wouldn't understand.

Scientists don't like backtracking on their theories. It takes a while before new evidence is really accepted. There are plenty of examples of this.

so anyway, on topic, What conclusions have you drawn and why?

 

[Truthspeaker]

You are implying mutual exclusivity between church/faith and honesty.

And? Faith spells the end of honest consideration of the facts. Just look at the Catholics or the Warmers.

I see no difference between the two, really.

Let's talk about that. How much evidence have you ignored in support of the existence of a God?

Why do you think because you have found one false religion that they are all false? If there is an opposite for everything, there must be a true religion out there somewhere right?

How arrogant of you to say that because Einstein admitted that there was a God, that he was unwilling to honestly consider facts?
Are you smarter than Einstein?
Do you consider yourself privy to information he was not?
How long have you been so self conceited?
Answer me! Still waiting....

 

[Truthspeaker]

I thought we established that a long time ago...

Yes, but you said that our friends at church wouldn't understand. This implies either faith makes you dishonest or church makes you dishonest. Something of a logical fallacy there IMHO. You are implying mutual exclusivity between church/faith and honesty.

See.....this is where they hid it.........

Faith does not make you dishonest.

Church does not make you dishonest.

LEADING a church or faith is what makes you dishonest. Need examples? How's about Ted Haggard, Warren Jeffs, John Ensign, Larry Craig and all the others.

By the way, a really simple definition for faith? It's a willingness to believe in the possibilities.

First time? I do it on faith, trusting that it's true.

Each time after? I do it on belief, because I've already proven to myself it works.

No first it's believe(the desire), then it's faith(the action), then it's knowledge after that.

 

[☭proletarian☭]

If there is an opposite for everything

Who said there was? Can you show me where I can find an anti-cat?

Einstein didn't believe in personal god, btw.

We're back to the honesty thing