Zone1 How are you saved and how to know youll be in heaven?

[BreezeWood]

knowing right from wrong is destined to always be the key to success. to heaven then would be to find something other than a desert religion to get there.

 

[Blues Man]

As always you missed the point.

Heaven is NOT the reward of the saved

Where did I mention heaven or "the saved" in that post?

 

[Harry Dresden]

Very well said, you're actually right.

thank you Marc......

 

[ninja007]

The person KNOWING he has his place in heaven reserved for him is daring to usurp the power of their god to judge them

ok i broke my promise- heres some proof from the bible; not my opinion-

1. Ephesians 2:8-9​

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Read More

2. 1 John 3:18-22​

Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth. By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. Read More

3. Romans 5:6-11​

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Read More

4. John 10:27-30​

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” Read More

5. Titus 3:4-7​

But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Read More

6. Romans 8:37-39​

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Read More

7. Philippians 1:6​

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Read More

8. John 6:37-40​

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” Read More

9. Isaiah 12:2​

“Behold, God is my salvation;
I will trust, and will not be afraid;
for the LORD GOD is my strength and my song,
and he has become my salvation.” Read More

10. 1 John 4:13-16​

By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. Read More

11. John 3:16​

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Read More

12. Romans 10:9-13​

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Read More

13. James 1:12​

Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. Read More

14. 1 John 5:11-13​

And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. Read More

 

[ninja007]

As always you missed the point.

Heaven is NOT the reward of the saved

1. Ephesians 2:8-9​

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Read More

2. 1 John 3:18-22​

Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth. By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. Read More

3. Romans 5:6-11​

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Read More

4. John 10:27-30​

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” Read More

5. Titus 3:4-7​

But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Read More

6. Romans 8:37-39​

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Read More

7. Philippians 1:6​

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Read More

8. John 6:37-40​

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” Read More

9. Isaiah 12:2​

“Behold, God is my salvation;
I will trust, and will not be afraid;
for the LORD GOD is my strength and my song,
and he has become my salvation.” Read More

10. 1 John 4:13-16​

By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. Read More

11. John 3:16​

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Read More

12. Romans 10:9-13​

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Read More

13. James 1:12​

Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. Read More

14. 1 John 5:11-13​

And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. Read More

 

[ninja007]

As always you missed the point.

Heaven is NOT the reward of the saved

looks like it is though...

1. Ephesians 2:8-9​

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Read More

2. 1 John 3:18-22​

Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth. By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. Read More

3. Romans 5:6-11​

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Read More

4. John 10:27-30​

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” Read More

5. Titus 3:4-7​

But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Read More

6. Romans 8:37-39​

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Read More

7. Philippians 1:6​

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Read More

8. John 6:37-40​

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” Read More

9. Isaiah 12:2​

“Behold, God is my salvation;
I will trust, and will not be afraid;
for the LORD GOD is my strength and my song,
and he has become my salvation.” Read More

10. 1 John 4:13-16​

By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. Read More

11. John 3:16​

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Read More

12. Romans 10:9-13​

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Read More

13. James 1:12​

Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. Read More

14. 1 John 5:11-13​

And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. Read More

 

[ninja007]

Redemption/salvation can be seen as God's gifts of grace through faith...working itself out in love.

A memorable homily used the analogy of parents gifting a child with a musical instrument or paint supplies. They hired the best teacher to instruct the child whenever the child found it convenient. They maintained the musical instrument or provided art supplies as needed--all these freely showered upon their child all through life.

In the end, who will be asked to play music: The child who took hold of all these gifts, or the child who never bothered?

In the end, who will be asked to share their art: The child who accepted and used all these gifts, or the child who never picked up so much as a crayon?

Who will be in heaven: Those who use their gifts of redemption/salvation and the result is love of God and love of others or those--or, those who ignored the gifts and are indifferent to God and others?

so heres what the bible says- Ill go with the bible not mans/womens opinion-

1. Ephesians 2:8-9​

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Read More

2. 1 John 3:18-22​

Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth. By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. Read More

3. Romans 5:6-11​

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Read More

4. John 10:27-30​

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” Read More

5. Titus 3:4-7​

But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Read More

6. Romans 8:37-39​

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Read More

7. Philippians 1:6​

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Read More

8. John 6:37-40​

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” Read More

9. Isaiah 12:2​

“Behold, God is my salvation;
I will trust, and will not be afraid;
for the LORD GOD is my strength and my song,
and he has become my salvation.” Read More

10. 1 John 4:13-16​

By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. Read More

11. John 3:16​

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Read More

12. Romans 10:9-13​

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Read More

13. James 1:12​

Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. Read More

14. 1 John 5:11-13​

And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. Read More

 

[ninja007]

"Nothing is impossible with God" is one of the most encouraging verses in the Bible. Also, in Romans Paul notes that for people of no faith, God's ways are written on the human heart. He notes in that case, the heart will judge.

The only bad news about that, is that our own hearts are often the sternest of judges.

you say youre a christian - the ONLY CORRECT ANSWER to my question is by the grace of God I'm saved by Jesus' FREE GIFT OF SALVATION- If you believe anything else youre in very dangerous territory according to the bible and Jesus. Youre basically spitting in his face saying/believing you can "help Him or help yourself get to Heaven.

 

[ninja007]

JOHN 14:6 KJV "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth ...​

kingjamesbibleonline.org
https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org › John-14-6




Jesus says to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father unless by me.

 

[Blues Man]

ok i broke my promise- heres some proof from the bible; not my opinion-

1. Ephesians 2:8-9​

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Read More

2. 1 John 3:18-22​

Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth. By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. Read More

3. Romans 5:6-11​

For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die—but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Read More

4. John 10:27-30​

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” Read More

5. Titus 3:4-7​

But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Read More

6. Romans 8:37-39​

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Read More

7. Philippians 1:6​

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Read More

8. John 6:37-40​

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” Read More

9. Isaiah 12:2​

“Behold, God is my salvation;
I will trust, and will not be afraid;
for the LORD GOD is my strength and my song,
and he has become my salvation.” Read More

10. 1 John 4:13-16​

By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. Read More

11. John 3:16​

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Read More

12. Romans 10:9-13​

Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” Read More

13. James 1:12​

Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him. Read More

14. 1 John 5:11-13​

And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. Read More

You do not KNOW how your god will judge you.

Therefore you cannot KNOW if you will be given any rewards

 

[ninja007]

You do not KNOW how your god will judge you.

Therefore you cannot KNOW if you will be given any rewards

our salvation is not judged- its secure in Jesus thank God. Our good works are judged at the Bema Seat, only Believers are there....

 

[Blues Man]

our salvation is not judged- its secure in Jesus thank God. Our good works are judged at the Bema Seat, only Believers are there....

No it isn't.

Only your god has the power to decide what happens to you.

If you walk up to him and say "hey give me the keys to my heavenly home now because I KNOW I am worthy" what do you think your answer would be?

 

[ninja007]

No it isn't.

Only your god has the power to decide what happens to you.

If you walk up to him and say "hey give me the keys to my heavenly home now because I KNOW I am worthy" what do you think your answer would be?

you miss the point completely- I am not worthy but because Jesus took away my sins I am.

 

[Blues Man]

you miss the point completely- I am not worthy but because Jesus took away my sins I am.

No you're still not worthy.

It's arrogance (Pride) to think you can KNOW what a god will do

 

[ninja007]

No you're still not worthy.

It's arrogance (Pride) to think you can KNOW what a god will do

the bible tells us.

 

[Blues Man]

the bible tells us.

No it's how someone else interpreted it for you

 

[Ringo]

Dear Christian citizens! Let's imagine that Christ began to rule the United States tomorrow, look what he did in his time:
1. united everyone with one ideology;
2. Called to give all his wealth to the people;
3. Agitated against the clergy;
4. Agitated against market relations.
Are you in favor?

 

[Meriweather]

so heres what the bible says- Ill go with the bible not mans/womens opinion-

The Bible says more, and the Bible has context. Copying and pasting cherry-picked proof-texts is not a good technique for either teaching or discussion.

Martin Luther decided there was no purgatory, and one of the reasons he tossed books from the Bible was to cover up the idea people in Biblical times prayed for the dead. One has to be totally convinced of something to throw out the Biblical texts not only in use before the time of Jesus, but for fifteen centuries after Jesus, too.

One might say Martin Luther is a very good first example of Biblical cherry-pickers. Easy to understand in his case. His early life was quite difficult.

 

[Meriweather]

you say youre a christian - the ONLY CORRECT ANSWER to my question is by the grace of God I'm saved by Jesus' FREE GIFT OF SALVATION- If you believe anything else youre in very dangerous territory according to the bible and Jesus. Youre basically spitting in his face saying/believing you can "help Him or help yourself get to Heaven.

By the grace of God all the world is redeemed. Paul addressed the question of those who hold no belief in God. Are you saying, "No redemption for them!" ?

How is using a free gift, "helping"? Think of all the free gifts of toys you received as a child. Did you make use of those gifts? How did using those gifts "help" your parents? On the other hand, did using what you were given help you?

Were there carpenters in your family? There were in mine. A child's sized gift of real tools in a tool box was highly favored--not only because he could now help his grandfather, but because he could also build on his own--using his grandfather's gift. My brother continues to do carpentry to this day.

When my grandfather was watching my brother, are you imagining Grandpa thinking, "What an ungrateful kid! I gave him a gift and he's using it! I don't need him to help me!"

Think about what followed. Did my brother work to earn money to repay Grandpa for the gift? Nope. Did he use tools to make Grandpa a gift? Yes. Are you imagining Grandpa storming off, grumbling about how the ungrateful child could even imagine how his gift, made with the gift of a tool box, could ever help him?

 

[ninja007]

The Bible says more, and the Bible has context. Copying and pasting cherry-picked proof-texts is not a good technique for either teaching or discussion.

Martin Luther decided there was no purgatory, and one of the reasons he tossed books from the Bible was to cover up the idea people in Biblical times prayed for the dead. One has to be totally convinced of something to throw out the Biblical texts not only in use before the time of Jesus, but for fifteen centuries after Jesus, too.

One might say Martin Luther is a very good first example of Biblical cherry-pickers. Easy to understand in his case. His early life was quite difficult.

Jesus never mentioned a purgatory. there is not one- you take verses out of context. why would there need to be a purgatory?