CDZ Hiroshima Debate: The End of the Age of Reason?

[there4eyeM]

Guess I did overrate abilities.

I'll put this another way; there is a unique American naïvité. ('unique' means 'no other that is the same'). Sorry, links are up to you.

 

[2aguy]

The Japanese are incredibly racist and nationalistic.......

No more than anyone else.

actually, that isn't true. they are more nationalistic and racist than Americans.

 

[2aguy]

Guess I did overrate abilities.

I'll put this another way; there is a unique American naïvité. ('unique' means 'no other that is the same'). Sorry, links are up to you.

so the countries signing on to the Itan deal are less naive than the U.S......do tell?

 

[there4eyeM]

?

 

[Unkotare]

The Japanese are incredibly racist and nationalistic.......

No more than anyone else.

actually, that isn't true. they are more nationalistic and racist than Americans.

Have you read some of the posts here?

When you get to know a people well enough, you see that all nations and ethnicities have about the same tendencies for both good and bad attitudes. The easiest thing to do is cling to generalities.

 

[Skylar]

There was no justification.
Was Hiroshima Necessary

There has never been an unconditional surrender.

Look at the conventional invasion plan prepared by the US. Look at the civilian and US military casualties. They are orders or magnitude higher on both counts than the bombs.

Worse, if the US military had lost hundreds of thousands of US troops invading Japan with the public learning that there had been a pair of bombs that could have ended the war without all those deaths.....they would have lost their shit.

There was really one choice. Japan mumbled about surrendering. But they had made no certain commitment to it.

 

[there4eyeM]

Invasion was an option, not a necessity.
Terror bombing was an option, not a necessity.
Immoral action is always an option, never a necessity.

 

[Disir]

There was no justification.
Was Hiroshima Necessary

There has never been an unconditional surrender.

Look at the conventional invasion plan prepared by the US. Look at the civilian and US military casualties. They are orders or magnitude higher on both counts than the bombs.

Worse, if the US military had lost hundreds of thousands of US troops invading Japan with the public learning that there had been a pair of bombs that could have ended the war without all those deaths.....they would have lost their shit.

There was really one choice. Japan mumbled about surrendering. But they had made no certain commitment to it.

There was more than choice.

 

[alpine]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

 

[Skylar]

There was no justification.
Was Hiroshima Necessary

There has never been an unconditional surrender.

Look at the conventional invasion plan prepared by the US. Look at the civilian and US military casualties. They are orders or magnitude higher on both counts than the bombs.

Worse, if the US military had lost hundreds of thousands of US troops invading Japan with the public learning that there had been a pair of bombs that could have ended the war without all those deaths.....they would have lost their shit.

There was really one choice. Japan mumbled about surrendering. But they had made no certain commitment to it.

There was more than choice.

Is there more to that comment? Because it doesn't really clarify much.

 

[Skylar]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Because their actions don't define ours. Or excuse ours. We're responsible for our actions.

 

[alpine]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Because their actions don't define ours. Or excuse ours. We're responsible for our actions.

Of course it does. It always does.
The punishment always depends on the crime committed, innit?

 

[Disir]

There was no justification.
Was Hiroshima Necessary

There has never been an unconditional surrender.

Look at the conventional invasion plan prepared by the US. Look at the civilian and US military casualties. They are orders or magnitude higher on both counts than the bombs.

Worse, if the US military had lost hundreds of thousands of US troops invading Japan with the public learning that there had been a pair of bombs that could have ended the war without all those deaths.....they would have lost their shit.

There was really one choice. Japan mumbled about surrendering. But they had made no certain commitment to it.

There was more than choice.

Is there more to that comment? Because it doesn't really clarify much.

I have already made many posts regarding this.

 

[Disir]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Nobody is asking you to. I think that is the problem here. People are under the impression that they must feel some type of guilt or anguish and that isn't the case.

 

[Unkotare]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Because their actions don't define ours. Or excuse ours. We're responsible for our actions.

Of course it does. It always does.
The punishment always depends on the crime committed, innit?

So, hundreds of thousands of civilians were deliberately targeted and destroyed as an act of revenge against the military?

 

[alpine]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Nobody is asking you to. I think that is the problem here. People are under the impression that they must feel some type of guilt or anguish and that isn't the case.

That is good, because I dont, just like many others.

Most people see the Japanese emperor and the generals being the responsible party, not the US nor the US Army. And I totally agree with them.

 

[Skylar]

Invasion was an option, not a necessity.
Terror bombing was an option, not a necessity.
Immoral action is always an option, never a necessity.

You're looking back at this with the 20-20 hindsight of literally 70 years to review the issue from all sides. Including vast quantities of information that the Allies weren't privy to. This was literally in the middle of a war. There was no truce. There was no ceasefire. There was open warfare. Nothing that followed was certain. And no one knew the outcome.

Also remember that virtually all of the prohibitions against attacking cities and civilian populations came AFTER the war. Bombing cities with an even passing military utility was considered a perfectly valid military tactic in the age. There were certainly no rules preventing it.

And of course, we knew we weren't the only one's researching the bomb. Nor the only one's likely to possess that technology indefinitely. A demonstration of exactly how destructive the weapon could be very likely prevented its use again in battle.

To apply post war morality, post war rules, post war information, and post war certainty to definite outcomes is the epitome of useless moralization. Like condemning Columbus for not taking the redeye to Newark Airport instead of the arduous sea journey with the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria. These simply weren't available to the people making the decisions.

As a strong indication as to how necessarily this may have been....was the Emperor's response after the first bombing. His concern wasn't for his people. Or for surrender. But for the security of the 3 pieces of imperial regalia. If the atomic bomb itself wasn't enough to motivate surrender, its gonna be a tough sell to propose that without it we would have seen surrender in anything close to the same time line.

 

[alpine]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Because their actions don't define ours. Or excuse ours. We're responsible for our actions.

Of course it does. It always does.
The punishment always depends on the crime committed, innit?

So, hundreds of thousands of civilians were deliberately targeted and destroyed as an act of revenge against the military?

They were destroyed result of the incompetence of their emperor and generals. If Japanese people looking to find who is responsible for the catastrophic past, they should look within, no where else...

 

[Skylar]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Because their actions don't define ours. Or excuse ours. We're responsible for our actions.

Of course it does. It always does.
The punishment always depends on the crime committed, innit?

No. If ISIS beheads people, we don't suddenly get a pass on doing the same thing. We're bound to our laws, our standards. And they don't change (or at least, shouldn't) based on their actions.

And the people that suffered were overwhelmingly civilians in both instances. Which should illicit sympathy regardless of the necessity of any such actions.

 

[Skylar]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Because their actions don't define ours. Or excuse ours. We're responsible for our actions.

Of course it does. It always does.
The punishment always depends on the crime committed, innit?

So, hundreds of thousands of civilians were deliberately targeted and destroyed as an act of revenge against the military?

They were destroyed result of the incompetence of their emperor and generals. If Japanese people looking to find who is responsible for the catastrophic past, they should look within, no where else...

And that Japanese did blame the military. Though not the Emperor. There was a powerful anti-military sentiment among the Japanese people. With a general recognition that it was military ambition that lead the country to ruin.

That being said, we're still held to our own standards. Not to the standards of the Japanese.