CDZ Hiroshima Debate: The End of the Age of Reason?

[Skylar]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Nobody is asking you to. I think that is the problem here. People are under the impression that they must feel some type of guilt or anguish and that isn't the case.

I dunno. I regret the necessity. I regret the lives lost. I feel sympathy toward the victims, most of which weren't fighting. The US v Japanese warfare was some of the bloodiest, most brutal in modern warfare history, with insane casualty rates. And the bombing epitomized that.

As an American I take pride in our acomplishments. The invention of our Constitution. Our powerful nation and robust economy. Our technological and cultural achievments. The moon landing.

All this despite the fact that I played no direct role in any of it. If I can take pride in events that I didn't directly participate in, I can certainly feel regret at horrible events that I also played no direct role in.

As the US is my team and my people.

 

[Disir]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Nobody is asking you to. I think that is the problem here. People are under the impression that they must feel some type of guilt or anguish and that isn't the case.

I dunno. I regret the necessity. I regret the lives lost. I feel sympathy toward the victims, most of which weren't fighting. The US v Japanese warfare was some of the bloodiest, most brutal in modern warfare history, with insane casualty rates. And the bombing epitomized that.

As an American I take pride in our acomplishments. The invention of our Constitution. Our powerful nation and robust economy. Our technological and cultural achievments. The moon landing.

All this despite the fact that I played no direct role in any of it. If I can take pride in events that I didn't directly participate in, I can certainly feel regret at horrible events that I also played no direct role in.

As the US is my team and my people.

Hiroshima Debate: The End of the Age of Reason?

If we are to hold events from 70 years ago up to scrutiny such as this and feel anything then it must be to make sure that it never happens again.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Because their actions don't define ours. Or excuse ours. We're responsible for our actions.

Of course it does. It always does.
The punishment always depends on the crime committed, innit?

So, hundreds of thousands of civilians were deliberately targeted and destroyed as an act of revenge against the military?

Wrong, unless you are referencing the entire air war on all sides for the entire war. Both Cities were legal military targets. Both were not heavily damaged before the Atomic bomb was dropped. Even after 2 Atomic bombs the Japanese Army attempted a Coup to prevent their "living God" emperor from surrendering.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Because their actions don't define ours. Or excuse ours. We're responsible for our actions.

Of course it does. It always does.
The punishment always depends on the crime committed, innit?

No. If ISIS beheads people, we don't suddenly get a pass on doing the same thing. We're bound to our laws, our standards. And they don't change (or at least, shouldn't) based on their actions.

And the people that suffered were overwhelmingly civilians in both instances. Which should illicit sympathy regardless of the necessity of any such actions.

And in WW2 bombing cities that were manufacturers, ports or army Headquarters was not only NOT against the rules it was the NORM.

 

[Unkotare]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Because their actions don't define ours. Or excuse ours. We're responsible for our actions.

Of course it does. It always does.
The punishment always depends on the crime committed, innit?

So, hundreds of thousands of civilians were deliberately targeted and destroyed as an act of revenge against the military?

Wrong, ....

Read the quote to which I was responding.

 

[2aguy]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Because their actions don't define ours. Or excuse ours. We're responsible for our actions.

Of course it does. It always does.
The punishment always depends on the crime committed, innit?

So, hundreds of thousands of civilians were deliberately targeted and destroyed as an act of revenge against the military?

No, two military targets had bombs dropped on them as the Japanese refused to surrender.....they made no good faith effort...how do we know....they didn't surrender before the bombs were dropped...and surrendered immediately after the bombs were dropped.....explains it perfectly.

 

[2aguy]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Nobody is asking you to. I think that is the problem here. People are under the impression that they must feel some type of guilt or anguish and that isn't the case.

I dunno. I regret the necessity. I regret the lives lost. I feel sympathy toward the victims, most of which weren't fighting. The US v Japanese warfare was some of the bloodiest, most brutal in modern warfare history, with insane casualty rates. And the bombing epitomized that.

As an American I take pride in our acomplishments. The invention of our Constitution. Our powerful nation and robust economy. Our technological and cultural achievments. The moon landing.

All this despite the fact that I played no direct role in any of it. If I can take pride in events that I didn't directly participate in, I can certainly feel regret at horrible events that I also played no direct role in.

As the US is my team and my people.

Hiroshima Debate: The End of the Age of Reason?

If we are to hold events from 70 years ago up to scrutiny such as this and feel anything then it must be to make sure that it never happens again.

sure, then tell nations with medieval beliefs and modern weapons to not attack their neighbors.......then we will all be happy....but of course they are going to do it again when they let Iran get the bomb...........it will work just as well as it did with Japan.

world War 2 also shows us...the way to stop a primitive society with modern weapons from being a war monger is to defeat them completely when they drag us into war.........that is how you will defeat the modern problem of Islam.

 

[Disir]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Nobody is asking you to. I think that is the problem here. People are under the impression that they must feel some type of guilt or anguish and that isn't the case.

I dunno. I regret the necessity. I regret the lives lost. I feel sympathy toward the victims, most of which weren't fighting. The US v Japanese warfare was some of the bloodiest, most brutal in modern warfare history, with insane casualty rates. And the bombing epitomized that.

As an American I take pride in our acomplishments. The invention of our Constitution. Our powerful nation and robust economy. Our technological and cultural achievments. The moon landing.

All this despite the fact that I played no direct role in any of it. If I can take pride in events that I didn't directly participate in, I can certainly feel regret at horrible events that I also played no direct role in.

As the US is my team and my people.

Hiroshima Debate: The End of the Age of Reason?

If we are to hold events from 70 years ago up to scrutiny such as this and feel anything then it must be to make sure that it never happens again.

sure, then tell nations with medieval beliefs and modern weapons to not attack their neighbors.......then we will all be happy....but of course they are going to do it again when they let Iran get the bomb...........it will work just as well as it did with Japan.

Stop trying to weave in a bunch of unrelated stuff.

Thanks.

 

[2aguy]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Nobody is asking you to. I think that is the problem here. People are under the impression that they must feel some type of guilt or anguish and that isn't the case.

I dunno. I regret the necessity. I regret the lives lost. I feel sympathy toward the victims, most of which weren't fighting. The US v Japanese warfare was some of the bloodiest, most brutal in modern warfare history, with insane casualty rates. And the bombing epitomized that.

As an American I take pride in our acomplishments. The invention of our Constitution. Our powerful nation and robust economy. Our technological and cultural achievments. The moon landing.

All this despite the fact that I played no direct role in any of it. If I can take pride in events that I didn't directly participate in, I can certainly feel regret at horrible events that I also played no direct role in.

As the US is my team and my people.

Hiroshima Debate: The End of the Age of Reason?

If we are to hold events from 70 years ago up to scrutiny such as this and feel anything then it must be to make sure that it never happens again.

sure, then tell nations with medieval beliefs and modern weapons to not attack their neighbors.......then we will all be happy....but of course they are going to do it again when they let Iran get the bomb...........it will work just as well as it did with Japan.

Stop trying to weave in a bunch of unrelated stuff.

Thanks.

what we are doing now is exactly what happened in WW2 with Japan...they were a medieval society with modern weapons and saw the world from a medieval point of view......and they went on a rampage...

 

[Disir]

Nobody is asking you to. I think that is the problem here. People are under the impression that they must feel some type of guilt or anguish and that isn't the case.

I dunno. I regret the necessity. I regret the lives lost. I feel sympathy toward the victims, most of which weren't fighting. The US v Japanese warfare was some of the bloodiest, most brutal in modern warfare history, with insane casualty rates. And the bombing epitomized that.

As an American I take pride in our acomplishments. The invention of our Constitution. Our powerful nation and robust economy. Our technological and cultural achievments. The moon landing.

All this despite the fact that I played no direct role in any of it. If I can take pride in events that I didn't directly participate in, I can certainly feel regret at horrible events that I also played no direct role in.

As the US is my team and my people.

Hiroshima Debate: The End of the Age of Reason?

If we are to hold events from 70 years ago up to scrutiny such as this and feel anything then it must be to make sure that it never happens again.

sure, then tell nations with medieval beliefs and modern weapons to not attack their neighbors.......then we will all be happy....but of course they are going to do it again when they let Iran get the bomb...........it will work just as well as it did with Japan.

Stop trying to weave in a bunch of unrelated stuff.

Thanks.

what we are doing now is exactly what happened in WW2 with Japan...they were a medieval society with modern weapons and saw the world from a medieval point of view......and they went on a rampage...

No, what you are doing now is desperately trying to make a nonexistent comparison.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So, why should I feel any grief for the Japanese after what they have done to the Chinese and Koreans?
Do they expect anyone to feel for them? Really?
It seems to me like they accept the fact that they screwed it up in the first place...

Because their actions don't define ours. Or excuse ours. We're responsible for our actions.

Of course it does. It always does.
The punishment always depends on the crime committed, innit?

So, hundreds of thousands of civilians were deliberately targeted and destroyed as an act of revenge against the military?

Wrong, ....

Read the quote to which I was responding.

Still ignoring and deleting the part you don't want to answer I see.

 

[Unkotare]

Because their actions don't define ours. Or excuse ours. We're responsible for our actions.

Of course it does. It always does.
The punishment always depends on the crime committed, innit?

So, hundreds of thousands of civilians were deliberately targeted and destroyed as an act of revenge against the military?

Wrong, ....

Read the quote to which I was responding.

Still ignoring and deleting the part you don't want to answer I see.

Nope, addressing the relevant points.

 

[there4eyeM]

Moral compasses have not changed in so little time. We cannot excuse this horror so easily by saying "those guys way back then were poor backward fellows".
That may work to some degree when talking about the Civil War, slavery and such, but not 1945. Why was the shock of the Holocaust different from how we looked at Genghis Kahn or other mass exterminations? It was and is a modern reaction, and we were and are in the same moral atmosphere. Seeking solace for the nation's actions with this argument simply doesn't wash. It's nice to like America, but it's not adult to pass off barbarity offhandedly.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Moral compasses have not changed in so little time. We cannot excuse this horror so easily by saying "those guys way back then were poor backward fellows".
That may work to some degree when talking about the Civil War, slavery and such, but not 1945. Why was the shock of the Holocaust different from how we looked at Genghis Kahn or other mass exterminations? It was and is a modern reaction, and we were and are in the same moral atmosphere. Seeking solace for the nation's actions with this argument simply doesn't wash. It's nice to like America, but it's not adult to pass off barbarity offhandedly.

Once again for the painfully IGNORANT, in WW2 bombing cities was ACCEPTED practice by all sides. For the entire war.

 

[M14 Shooter]

There was no justification.
Was Hiroshima Necessary

There has never been an unconditional surrender.

Look at the conventional invasion plan prepared by the US. Look at the civilian and US military casualties. They are orders or magnitude higher on both counts than the bombs.

Worse, if the US military had lost hundreds of thousands of US troops invading Japan with the public learning that there had been a pair of bombs that could have ended the war without all those deaths.....they would have lost their shit.

There was really one choice. Japan mumbled about surrendering. But they had made no certain commitment to it.

There was more than choice.

True.... we could have surrendered unconditionally to Japan.
You know, like Germany surrendered to us.

 

[Disir]

There was no justification.
Was Hiroshima Necessary

There has never been an unconditional surrender.

Look at the conventional invasion plan prepared by the US. Look at the civilian and US military casualties. They are orders or magnitude higher on both counts than the bombs.

Worse, if the US military had lost hundreds of thousands of US troops invading Japan with the public learning that there had been a pair of bombs that could have ended the war without all those deaths.....they would have lost their shit.

There was really one choice. Japan mumbled about surrendering. But they had made no certain commitment to it.

There was more than choice.

True.... we could have surrendered unconditionally to Japan.
You know, like Germany surrendered to us.

Try again.

 

[M14 Shooter]

There was no justification.
Was Hiroshima Necessary

There has never been an unconditional surrender.

Look at the conventional invasion plan prepared by the US. Look at the civilian and US military casualties. They are orders or magnitude higher on both counts than the bombs.

Worse, if the US military had lost hundreds of thousands of US troops invading Japan with the public learning that there had been a pair of bombs that could have ended the war without all those deaths.....they would have lost their shit.

There was really one choice. Japan mumbled about surrendering. But they had made no certain commitment to it.

There was more than choice.

True.... we could have surrendered unconditionally to Japan.
You know, like Germany surrendered to us.

Try again.

Surrendering to Japan was not an option to dropping the bombs? Why?

 

[there4eyeM]

So, the Allies accepted the standard set by its fascist and imperialist adversaries. Notable.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

So, the Allies accepted the standard set by its fascist and imperialist adversaries. Notable.

Industry was in the cities. The bombing was inaccurate and had to be conducted on a HUGE scale. Are you suggesting we should not have bombed the enemies industry?

 

[Agit8r]

Like the other bombings of civilian targets during WWII, they were obviously acts of terrorism. The only thing that was special about them is the long term genetic damage they did, which might or might not have been predictable based on the scientific evidence available at the time. I've never heard of children being born after the fire-bombing of Dresden suffering from thermite poisoning, for instance.