CDZ Hiroshima Debate: The End of the Age of Reason?

[there4eyeM]

The Towers valid targets to those who simply don't care about human life.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

An army concentration is a military target.

Both cities were forming Armies to resist the expected Invasion, both cities were ports and had industrial plants also making them military targets.

 

[jwoodie]

It was military. Not civilian. This isn't that difficult. Big difference. Try again.

How did you happen to escape my Ignore list?

 

[2aguy]

The Towers valid targets to those who simply don't care about human life.

and a good looking woman is a valid target to a rapist who does not care about human life..right? the monsters who attacked the towers were not lawful combatants in a war....and the people in those buildings were civilians in peacetime, in a non belligerent nation.

 

[Disir]

Initially it was simply military unconditional surrender. Not civilian government. That got tricky. That said we were still in an official state of war for legal reasons.

Still waiting for your citation to this effect.
What terms did we give Germany?
Be specific, and cite your claim.

What's this?
Avalon Project - German Surrender Documents

Thank you for providing the information necessary to prove you wrong.

1. The German Commander-in-Chief Southwest hereby surrenders unconditionally all the forces under his command or control on land, at sea and in the air and places himself and these forces unconditionally at the disposal of the Supreme Allied Commander, Mediterranean Theatre of Operations....
-
We the undersigned, acting by authority of the German High Command, hereby surrender unconditionally to the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Forces and simultaneously to the Soviet High Command all forces on land, sea and in the air who are at this date under German control.
-
1. We the undersigned, acting by authority of the German High Command, hereby surrender unconditionally to the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force and simultaneously to the Supreme High Command of the Red Army all forces on land, at sea, and in the air who are at this date under German control.
-
The Allied armies, through sacrifice and devotion and with God's help, have wrung from Germany a final and unconditional surrender.
-

So....what terms did we give Germany?
Be specific, and cite your claim.

It was military. Not civilian. This isn't that difficult. Big difference. Try again.

i accept your concession of the point; good to see you can admit it when someone demonstrates you are wrong..
Thank you.

I didn't concede. Try again.

 

[Disir]

It was military. Not civilian. This isn't that difficult. Big difference. Try again.

How did you happen to escape my Ignore list?

How do you manage to breathe on your own?
Declaration Regarding the Defeat of Germany
Although the German military signatories of the May 1945 German Instruments of Surrender had been acting under instructions from Admiral Dönitz, none of the Allied Powers recognised the acting Flensburg Government as validly exercising civil power; and consequently the Allies had insisted that the German signatories should explicitly represent the German High Command alone. On the 23 May 1945, the purported German government in Flensburg was abolished, and its members taken into captivity as prisoners of war.[28]

As the surrender instrument of 8 May 1945 had been signed only by German military representatives, the full civil provisions for the unconditional surrender of Germany remained without formal basis. Consequently, the EAC text for Unconditional Surrender of Germany, redrafted as a declaration and with an extended explanatory preamble, was adopted unilaterally by the Allied Powers as the Declaration regarding the defeat of Germany on 5 June 1945.[4] This embodied the Allied contention that the German Reich had dissolved entirely on the death of Adolf Hitler, and that the vacated civil authority in Germany had now been assumed solely by the Allied Control Council.[20] Stalin had, however, already back-tracked on his previous support for the principle of German dismemberment, publicly renouncing any such policy in his victory proclamation to the Soviet people of 8 May 1945.[6] Consequently, there was no 'dismemberment clause' in the Berlin declaration text.

German Instrument of Surrender - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[2aguy]

It was military. Not civilian. This isn't that difficult. Big difference. Try again.

How did you happen to escape my Ignore list?

How do you manage to breathe on your own?
Declaration Regarding the Defeat of Germany
Although the German military signatories of the May 1945 German Instruments of Surrender had been acting under instructions from Admiral Dönitz, none of the Allied Powers recognised the acting Flensburg Government as validly exercising civil power; and consequently the Allies had insisted that the German signatories should explicitly represent the German High Command alone. On the 23 May 1945, the purported German government in Flensburg was abolished, and its members taken into captivity as prisoners of war.[28]

As the surrender instrument of 8 May 1945 had been signed only by German military representatives, the full civil provisions for the unconditional surrender of Germany remained without formal basis. Consequently, the EAC text for Unconditional Surrender of Germany, redrafted as a declaration and with an extended explanatory preamble, was adopted unilaterally by the Allied Powers as the Declaration regarding the defeat of Germany on 5 June 1945.[4] This embodied the Allied contention that the German Reich had dissolved entirely on the death of Adolf Hitler, and that the vacated civil authority in Germany had now been assumed solely by the Allied Control Council.[20] Stalin had, however, already back-tracked on his previous support for the principle of German dismemberment, publicly renouncing any such policy in his victory proclamation to the Soviet people of 8 May 1945.[6] Consequently, there was no 'dismemberment clause' in the Berlin declaration text.

German Instrument of Surrender - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

you know hitler committed suicide..right? And that comparing a defeated Germany whose military was surrendering as the same as the Japanese government whose military had not surrendered is silly..right?

 

[Disir]

It was military. Not civilian. This isn't that difficult. Big difference. Try again.

How did you happen to escape my Ignore list?

How do you manage to breathe on your own?
Declaration Regarding the Defeat of Germany
Although the German military signatories of the May 1945 German Instruments of Surrender had been acting under instructions from Admiral Dönitz, none of the Allied Powers recognised the acting Flensburg Government as validly exercising civil power; and consequently the Allies had insisted that the German signatories should explicitly represent the German High Command alone. On the 23 May 1945, the purported German government in Flensburg was abolished, and its members taken into captivity as prisoners of war.[28]

As the surrender instrument of 8 May 1945 had been signed only by German military representatives, the full civil provisions for the unconditional surrender of Germany remained without formal basis. Consequently, the EAC text for Unconditional Surrender of Germany, redrafted as a declaration and with an extended explanatory preamble, was adopted unilaterally by the Allied Powers as the Declaration regarding the defeat of Germany on 5 June 1945.[4] This embodied the Allied contention that the German Reich had dissolved entirely on the death of Adolf Hitler, and that the vacated civil authority in Germany had now been assumed solely by the Allied Control Council.[20] Stalin had, however, already back-tracked on his previous support for the principle of German dismemberment, publicly renouncing any such policy in his victory proclamation to the Soviet people of 8 May 1945.[6] Consequently, there was no 'dismemberment clause' in the Berlin declaration text.

German Instrument of Surrender - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

you know hitter committed suicide..right? And that comparing a defeated Germany whose military was surrendering as the same as the Japanese government whose military had not surrendered is silly..right?

I didn't start it. Try again.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

It was military. Not civilian. This isn't that difficult. Big difference. Try again.

How did you happen to escape my Ignore list?

How do you manage to breathe on your own?
Declaration Regarding the Defeat of Germany
Although the German military signatories of the May 1945 German Instruments of Surrender had been acting under instructions from Admiral Dönitz, none of the Allied Powers recognised the acting Flensburg Government as validly exercising civil power; and consequently the Allies had insisted that the German signatories should explicitly represent the German High Command alone. On the 23 May 1945, the purported German government in Flensburg was abolished, and its members taken into captivity as prisoners of war.[28]

As the surrender instrument of 8 May 1945 had been signed only by German military representatives, the full civil provisions for the unconditional surrender of Germany remained without formal basis. Consequently, the EAC text for Unconditional Surrender of Germany, redrafted as a declaration and with an extended explanatory preamble, was adopted unilaterally by the Allied Powers as the Declaration regarding the defeat of Germany on 5 June 1945.[4] This embodied the Allied contention that the German Reich had dissolved entirely on the death of Adolf Hitler, and that the vacated civil authority in Germany had now been assumed solely by the Allied Control Council.[20] Stalin had, however, already back-tracked on his previous support for the principle of German dismemberment, publicly renouncing any such policy in his victory proclamation to the Soviet people of 8 May 1945.[6] Consequently, there was no 'dismemberment clause' in the Berlin declaration text.

German Instrument of Surrender - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

BE SPECIFIC what did the Japanese offer in their "surrender"?

 

[Disir]

It was military. Not civilian. This isn't that difficult. Big difference. Try again.

How did you happen to escape my Ignore list?

How do you manage to breathe on your own?
Declaration Regarding the Defeat of Germany
Although the German military signatories of the May 1945 German Instruments of Surrender had been acting under instructions from Admiral Dönitz, none of the Allied Powers recognised the acting Flensburg Government as validly exercising civil power; and consequently the Allies had insisted that the German signatories should explicitly represent the German High Command alone. On the 23 May 1945, the purported German government in Flensburg was abolished, and its members taken into captivity as prisoners of war.[28]

As the surrender instrument of 8 May 1945 had been signed only by German military representatives, the full civil provisions for the unconditional surrender of Germany remained without formal basis. Consequently, the EAC text for Unconditional Surrender of Germany, redrafted as a declaration and with an extended explanatory preamble, was adopted unilaterally by the Allied Powers as the Declaration regarding the defeat of Germany on 5 June 1945.[4] This embodied the Allied contention that the German Reich had dissolved entirely on the death of Adolf Hitler, and that the vacated civil authority in Germany had now been assumed solely by the Allied Control Council.[20] Stalin had, however, already back-tracked on his previous support for the principle of German dismemberment, publicly renouncing any such policy in his victory proclamation to the Soviet people of 8 May 1945.[6] Consequently, there was no 'dismemberment clause' in the Berlin declaration text.

German Instrument of Surrender - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

BE SPECIFIC what did the Japanese offer in their "surrender"?

Go back and read what I posted already. Hell, go back and read what you posted.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

It was military. Not civilian. This isn't that difficult. Big difference. Try again.

How did you happen to escape my Ignore list?

How do you manage to breathe on your own?
Declaration Regarding the Defeat of Germany
Although the German military signatories of the May 1945 German Instruments of Surrender had been acting under instructions from Admiral Dönitz, none of the Allied Powers recognised the acting Flensburg Government as validly exercising civil power; and consequently the Allies had insisted that the German signatories should explicitly represent the German High Command alone. On the 23 May 1945, the purported German government in Flensburg was abolished, and its members taken into captivity as prisoners of war.[28]

As the surrender instrument of 8 May 1945 had been signed only by German military representatives, the full civil provisions for the unconditional surrender of Germany remained without formal basis. Consequently, the EAC text for Unconditional Surrender of Germany, redrafted as a declaration and with an extended explanatory preamble, was adopted unilaterally by the Allied Powers as the Declaration regarding the defeat of Germany on 5 June 1945.[4] This embodied the Allied contention that the German Reich had dissolved entirely on the death of Adolf Hitler, and that the vacated civil authority in Germany had now been assumed solely by the Allied Control Council.[20] Stalin had, however, already back-tracked on his previous support for the principle of German dismemberment, publicly renouncing any such policy in his victory proclamation to the Soviet people of 8 May 1945.[6] Consequently, there was no 'dismemberment clause' in the Berlin declaration text.

German Instrument of Surrender - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

BE SPECIFIC what did the Japanese offer in their "surrender"?

Go back and read what I posted already. Hell, go back and read what you posted.

I have you claim all they ask for was that the Emperor be retained. That is a bald faced LIE. Even after the first atomic bomb they demanded that NO Allied troops be allowed to enter Japan and that a ceasefire be enacted rather then a surrender. That all their lost territory be returned to them.

 

[Disir]

It was military. Not civilian. This isn't that difficult. Big difference. Try again.

How did you happen to escape my Ignore list?

How do you manage to breathe on your own?
Declaration Regarding the Defeat of Germany
Although the German military signatories of the May 1945 German Instruments of Surrender had been acting under instructions from Admiral Dönitz, none of the Allied Powers recognised the acting Flensburg Government as validly exercising civil power; and consequently the Allies had insisted that the German signatories should explicitly represent the German High Command alone. On the 23 May 1945, the purported German government in Flensburg was abolished, and its members taken into captivity as prisoners of war.[28]

As the surrender instrument of 8 May 1945 had been signed only by German military representatives, the full civil provisions for the unconditional surrender of Germany remained without formal basis. Consequently, the EAC text for Unconditional Surrender of Germany, redrafted as a declaration and with an extended explanatory preamble, was adopted unilaterally by the Allied Powers as the Declaration regarding the defeat of Germany on 5 June 1945.[4] This embodied the Allied contention that the German Reich had dissolved entirely on the death of Adolf Hitler, and that the vacated civil authority in Germany had now been assumed solely by the Allied Control Council.[20] Stalin had, however, already back-tracked on his previous support for the principle of German dismemberment, publicly renouncing any such policy in his victory proclamation to the Soviet people of 8 May 1945.[6] Consequently, there was no 'dismemberment clause' in the Berlin declaration text.

German Instrument of Surrender - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

BE SPECIFIC what did the Japanese offer in their "surrender"?

Go back and read what I posted already. Hell, go back and read what you posted.

I have you claim all they ask for was that the Emperor be retained. That is a bald faced LIE. Even after the first atomic bomb they demanded that NO Allied troops be allowed to enter Japan and that a ceasefire be enacted rather then a surrender. That all their lost territory be returned to them.

YOU ARE A LIAR.

Memoranda for the President Japanese Feelers Central Intelligence Agency
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/17.pdf

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/29.pdf

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/32.pdf

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/40.pdf

Do not waste my time.

 

[there4eyeM]

What would be so wrong in admitting that evaporating defenseless people was not the best and wisest course for a country such as America likes to think it is?
Somehow, growing up, I got the idea that 'we' were higher and better than others, especially Nazis, militarists and racists. Learning otherwise has been painful.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

How did you happen to escape my Ignore list?

How do you manage to breathe on your own?
Declaration Regarding the Defeat of Germany
Although the German military signatories of the May 1945 German Instruments of Surrender had been acting under instructions from Admiral Dönitz, none of the Allied Powers recognised the acting Flensburg Government as validly exercising civil power; and consequently the Allies had insisted that the German signatories should explicitly represent the German High Command alone. On the 23 May 1945, the purported German government in Flensburg was abolished, and its members taken into captivity as prisoners of war.[28]

As the surrender instrument of 8 May 1945 had been signed only by German military representatives, the full civil provisions for the unconditional surrender of Germany remained without formal basis. Consequently, the EAC text for Unconditional Surrender of Germany, redrafted as a declaration and with an extended explanatory preamble, was adopted unilaterally by the Allied Powers as the Declaration regarding the defeat of Germany on 5 June 1945.[4] This embodied the Allied contention that the German Reich had dissolved entirely on the death of Adolf Hitler, and that the vacated civil authority in Germany had now been assumed solely by the Allied Control Council.[20] Stalin had, however, already back-tracked on his previous support for the principle of German dismemberment, publicly renouncing any such policy in his victory proclamation to the Soviet people of 8 May 1945.[6] Consequently, there was no 'dismemberment clause' in the Berlin declaration text.

German Instrument of Surrender - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

BE SPECIFIC what did the Japanese offer in their "surrender"?

Go back and read what I posted already. Hell, go back and read what you posted.

I have you claim all they ask for was that the Emperor be retained. That is a bald faced LIE. Even after the first atomic bomb they demanded that NO Allied troops be allowed to enter Japan and that a ceasefire be enacted rather then a surrender. That all their lost territory be returned to them.

YOU ARE A LIAR.

Memoranda for the President Japanese Feelers Central Intelligence Agency
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/17.pdf

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/29.pdf

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/32.pdf

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/40.pdf

Do not waste my time.

The Liar is you. The Government made those demands and were over ruled by the Emperor. Further the Emperor demanded that he remain the "living God" and sole control of his Country.

 

[Disir]

How do you manage to breathe on your own?
Declaration Regarding the Defeat of Germany
Although the German military signatories of the May 1945 German Instruments of Surrender had been acting under instructions from Admiral Dönitz, none of the Allied Powers recognised the acting Flensburg Government as validly exercising civil power; and consequently the Allies had insisted that the German signatories should explicitly represent the German High Command alone. On the 23 May 1945, the purported German government in Flensburg was abolished, and its members taken into captivity as prisoners of war.[28]

As the surrender instrument of 8 May 1945 had been signed only by German military representatives, the full civil provisions for the unconditional surrender of Germany remained without formal basis. Consequently, the EAC text for Unconditional Surrender of Germany, redrafted as a declaration and with an extended explanatory preamble, was adopted unilaterally by the Allied Powers as the Declaration regarding the defeat of Germany on 5 June 1945.[4] This embodied the Allied contention that the German Reich had dissolved entirely on the death of Adolf Hitler, and that the vacated civil authority in Germany had now been assumed solely by the Allied Control Council.[20] Stalin had, however, already back-tracked on his previous support for the principle of German dismemberment, publicly renouncing any such policy in his victory proclamation to the Soviet people of 8 May 1945.[6] Consequently, there was no 'dismemberment clause' in the Berlin declaration text.

German Instrument of Surrender - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

BE SPECIFIC what did the Japanese offer in their "surrender"?

Go back and read what I posted already. Hell, go back and read what you posted.

I have you claim all they ask for was that the Emperor be retained. That is a bald faced LIE. Even after the first atomic bomb they demanded that NO Allied troops be allowed to enter Japan and that a ceasefire be enacted rather then a surrender. That all their lost territory be returned to them.

YOU ARE A LIAR.

Memoranda for the President Japanese Feelers Central Intelligence Agency
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/17.pdf

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/29.pdf

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/32.pdf

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/40.pdf

Do not waste my time.

The Liar is you. The Government made those demands and were over ruled by the Emperor. Further the Emperor demanded that he remain the "living God" and sole control of his Country.

Try again

 

[M14 Shooter]

Still waiting for your citation to this effect.
What terms did we give Germany?
Be specific, and cite your claim.

What's this?
Avalon Project - German Surrender Documents

Thank you for providing the information necessary to prove you wrong.

1. The German Commander-in-Chief Southwest hereby surrenders unconditionally all the forces under his command or control on land, at sea and in the air and places himself and these forces unconditionally at the disposal of the Supreme Allied Commander, Mediterranean Theatre of Operations....
-
We the undersigned, acting by authority of the German High Command, hereby surrender unconditionally to the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Forces and simultaneously to the Soviet High Command all forces on land, sea and in the air who are at this date under German control.
-
1. We the undersigned, acting by authority of the German High Command, hereby surrender unconditionally to the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force and simultaneously to the Supreme High Command of the Red Army all forces on land, at sea, and in the air who are at this date under German control.
-
The Allied armies, through sacrifice and devotion and with God's help, have wrung from Germany a final and unconditional surrender.
-

So....what terms did we give Germany?
Be specific, and cite your claim.

It was military. Not civilian. This isn't that difficult. Big difference. Try again.

i accept your concession of the point; good to see you can admit it when someone demonstrates you are wrong..
Thank you.

I didn't concede. Try again.

Yawn.
What terms did we give Germany?
Be specific, and cite your claim.

 

[Disir]

What's this?
Avalon Project - German Surrender Documents

Thank you for providing the information necessary to prove you wrong.

1. The German Commander-in-Chief Southwest hereby surrenders unconditionally all the forces under his command or control on land, at sea and in the air and places himself and these forces unconditionally at the disposal of the Supreme Allied Commander, Mediterranean Theatre of Operations....
-
We the undersigned, acting by authority of the German High Command, hereby surrender unconditionally to the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Forces and simultaneously to the Soviet High Command all forces on land, sea and in the air who are at this date under German control.
-
1. We the undersigned, acting by authority of the German High Command, hereby surrender unconditionally to the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force and simultaneously to the Supreme High Command of the Red Army all forces on land, at sea, and in the air who are at this date under German control.
-
The Allied armies, through sacrifice and devotion and with God's help, have wrung from Germany a final and unconditional surrender.
-

So....what terms did we give Germany?
Be specific, and cite your claim.

It was military. Not civilian. This isn't that difficult. Big difference. Try again.

i accept your concession of the point; good to see you can admit it when someone demonstrates you are wrong..
Thank you.

I didn't concede. Try again.

Yawn.
What terms did we give Germany?
Be specific, and cite your claim.

I did and I supported my claim. Get a grip.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Thank you for providing the information necessary to prove you wrong.

1. The German Commander-in-Chief Southwest hereby surrenders unconditionally all the forces under his command or control on land, at sea and in the air and places himself and these forces unconditionally at the disposal of the Supreme Allied Commander, Mediterranean Theatre of Operations....
-
We the undersigned, acting by authority of the German High Command, hereby surrender unconditionally to the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Forces and simultaneously to the Soviet High Command all forces on land, sea and in the air who are at this date under German control.
-
1. We the undersigned, acting by authority of the German High Command, hereby surrender unconditionally to the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Force and simultaneously to the Supreme High Command of the Red Army all forces on land, at sea, and in the air who are at this date under German control.
-
The Allied armies, through sacrifice and devotion and with God's help, have wrung from Germany a final and unconditional surrender.
-

So....what terms did we give Germany?
Be specific, and cite your claim.

It was military. Not civilian. This isn't that difficult. Big difference. Try again.

i accept your concession of the point; good to see you can admit it when someone demonstrates you are wrong..
Thank you.

I didn't concede. Try again.

Yawn.
What terms did we give Germany?
Be specific, and cite your claim.

I did and I supported my claim.

This is a wanton lie.
Disagree?
Cite the post where you specify the terms we gave to Germany to end WW2, in lieu of their unconditional surrender.
.

 

[Disir]

What would be so wrong in admitting that evaporating defenseless people was not the best and wisest course for a country such as America likes to think it is?
Somehow, growing up, I got the idea that 'we' were higher and better than others, especially Nazis, militarists and racists. Learning otherwise has been painful.

I don't understand why this particular incident is painful. Nobody is asking anyone to apologize. Nobody is asking anyone to assume guilt. It's a wrap.

 

[there4eyeM]

It is weird how some Americans have a semi-religious attitude about the country. Saying anything done collectively by the nation was a mistake is like saying God is bad. It is an article of faith that "the US is good" in a moral sense. It is one of the reasons foreigners have such a hard time understanding this country.