Hey leftists, please give me ONE reason to trust the government to do ANYTHING...

[Soggy in NOLA]

I guess then we just have to agree that we envision two completely different roles of government. Conservatives envision one of very limited scope and involvement in our lives, the left embraces one we have now; one with it's tentacles in nearly every aspect of our being, where the state is king. One that regulates, taxes and confiscates at will for the "common good" as one thread put it.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

How about the one our founders envisioned? You know, limited in scope, with a narrow set of powers, those not explicit left to the states, answerable to the people, service in Congress being a part-time endeavor..... where Federal agencies aren't empowered to essentially regulate the masses.

And I'm sure I'll get some rant about people of color being 1/5 of a person... wait for it.

We have a form of government that is superior to the one the founding fathers envisioned. One where all are treated equally, one that has established itself as the most powerful on earth, one that is the envy of the rest of the world

Superior in some ways, no argument there. Inferior in many more ways.

Agreed. Fix the inherent wrongs, but don't bastardize it to the point is nearly unrecognizable from the principles it was founded upon. It wasn't founded upon slavery. It was founded upon self-determination, responsibility and freedom.. and that has nearly been thrown out the window in favor of some Utopian collectivism.

 

[rightwinger]

How about the one our founders envisioned? You know, limited in scope, with a narrow set of powers, those not explicit left to the states, answerable to the people, service in Congress being a part-time endeavor..... where Federal agencies aren't empowered to essentially regulate the masses.

And I'm sure I'll get some rant about people of color being 1/5 of a person... wait for it.

We have a form of government that is superior to the one the founding fathers envisioned. One where all are treated equally, one that has established itself as the most powerful on earth, one that is the envy of the rest of the world

Well, that didn't take long...

I have already established that the current US government is the finest on earth. I offered you hatemongers an opportunity to name one that you prefer and not one of you came forward with a current government we should model ourselves against.

18th century America was hell to live in......not one of us would prefer it to todays America

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

We have a form of government that is superior to the one the founding fathers envisioned. One where all are treated equally, one that has established itself as the most powerful on earth, one that is the envy of the rest of the world

Well, that didn't take long...

I have already established that the current US government is the finest on earth. I offered you hatemongers an opportunity to name one that you prefer and not one of you came forward with a current government we should model ourselves against.

18th century America was hell to live in......not one of us would prefer it to todays America

Not sure what the hatemonger is all about, but I suspect it indicates you inability to buy into your own arguments.

BTw.. 18th century America was vastly different.. and lack of running water, electricity, hospitals, etc. was a technology issue, not a government issue.

 

[Greenbeard]

One that regulates,

The Congress shall have the power

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; [...]

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; [...]

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

taxes

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

and confiscates at will for the "common good" as one thread put it.

...nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

One that regulates,

The Congress shall have the power

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; [...]

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; [...]

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

taxes

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

and confiscates at will for the "common good" as one thread put it.

...nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Thanks for missing entirely the premise of my post.

 

[Bfgrn]

You don't honestly believe that do you? Anything that is changed to the constitution that goes through the amendment process IS legitimate. ANYTHING. No liberty minded American can deny that.

It is the things changed that DOES NOT go through the legal amendment process that we have issue with, as should any intelligent American.

Oh really?

I've been watching the political process for a long time and I've lived longer than African-Americans have even been relatively free in this country .. I don't remember conservatives or so-called constitutionalists at the forefront of any of the social changes in America. In fact, they've stood in opposition to them.

You personally may have no problem with things constitutionally changed, but that is not the sentiment of the "government is evil" fad. They want to take things out of the constitution. Hell, many of them still arguing against civil rughts laws.

"Government is evil" is a notion thrown out there by the left to disparage those of us on the right. We have a healthy skepticism of government, and why not? Take a look at history, every society that has collapsed has done so due primarily to the excesses of government.

And there is that thing that we'd rather be in control of our destiny rather than having some bureaucrat mandating everything from our diet to our sleep habits.

A healthy skepticism? Where is your healthy skepticism of corporations and special interests?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is nothing wrong with corporations. Corporations are a good thing. They encourage us to take risks, they maximize wealth, they create jobs. They’re a great thing but they should not be running our government. The reason for that is they don’t have the same aspirations for America that you and I do.

A corporation does not want democracy. It does not want free markets, it wants profits and the best way for them to get profits is to use our campaign finance system which is just a system of legalized bribery to get their stakes, their hooks into a public official and then use that public official to dismantle the market place to give them a competitive advantage and then to privatize the common, to steal the commonwealth, to liquidate public assets for cash, to plunder, to steal from the rest of us.

And that doesn’t mean corporations are a bad thing. It just means they’re amoral and we have to recognize that and not let them into the political process.

Let them do their thing but they should not be participating in our political process because a corporation cannot do something genuinely philanthropic.

Its against the law in this country because their shareholders can sue them for wasting corporate resources. They cannot legally do anything that will not increase their profit margins and that’s the way the law works and we have to recognize that and understand that they are toxic for the political process and they have to be fenced off and kept out of the political process.

This White House (Bush) has done a great job of persuading a gullible press and the American public that the big threat to American democracy is big government. Well, yeah, big government is a threat ultimately but it is dwarfed by the threat of excessive corporate power and the corrosive impact that has on our democracy. And you know, as I said, you look at all the great political leaders in this country and the central theme is that we have to be cautious about, we have to avoid the domination of our government by corporate power.

This is why throughout our history our most visionary political leaders republican and democrat have been warning the American public against the domination by corporate power.

Teddy Roosevelt, a Republican, said that America would never be destroyed by a foreign power but he warned that our political institutions, our democratic institutions would be subverted by malefactors of great wealth who would erode them from within. Dwight Eisenhower, another republican in his most famous speech ever warned America against the domination by the military industrial complex.

Abraham Lincoln, the greatest Republican in our history, said during the height of the Civil War "I have the South in front of me and I have the bankers behind me. And for my country I fear the bankers more."

Franklin Roosevelt said during World War II that the domination of government by corporate power is "the essence of Fascism" and Benito Mussolini who had an insider’s view of that process said the same thing. Essentially he said that - he complained that Fascism should not be called Fascism. It should be called corporatism because it was the merger of state of corporate power.

And we what we have to understand as Americans is that the domination of business by government is called Communism.

The domination of government by business is called Fascism.

And what our job is is to walk that narrow trail in between which is free market capitalism and democracy. And keep big government at bay with our right hand and corporate power at bay with our left.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. - 2005

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

A healthy skepticism? Where is your healthy skepticism of corporations and special interests?

Right where it should be thanks.

 

[Truthmatters]

How about the one our founders envisioned? You know, limited in scope, with a narrow set of powers, those not explicit left to the states, answerable to the people, service in Congress being a part-time endeavor..... where Federal agencies aren't empowered to essentially regulate the masses.

And I'm sure I'll get some rant about people of color being 1/5 of a person... wait for it.

We have a form of government that is superior to the one the founding fathers envisioned. One where all are treated equally, one that has established itself as the most powerful on earth, one that is the envy of the rest of the world

FAR superior to that of the Founding "Fathers."

FAR superior to our government of the 40's and 50's

Pretty telling that some wish to go back in time

 

[Ernie S.]

No we don't have any semblance to that government

We abolished slavery
We allow women to vote
We provide a basic safety net for our people
We look out for the less fortunate
We have established a global economy
We protect civil rights

They don't care about any of that,

Those are the things they think are wrong with this country.

You don't honestly believe that do you? Anything that is changed to the constitution that goes through the amendment process IS legitimate. ANYTHING. No liberty minded American can deny that.

It is the things changed that DOES NOT go through the legal amendment process that we have issue with, as should any intelligent American.

Therein lies the rub Liberals don't operate on intelligence. They run on emotion.

 

[Liberty]

You never answered what government in the world is better than ours

I wasn't aware I made a point like that. Really grasping at straws aren't you?

So let me get this straight....you morons are providing a false dilemma of...

"If you don't love it, go somewhere else." and that is your argument? Right? Am I getting this correct?

It is a simple point..

You obviously believe the US Government is a tyranny

Do you believe that EVERY govt on earth is a tyranny? If not, you must be able to name one that you prefer to the US. It should not be that hard

Name the Govt. we should model ourselves after

Soft tyranny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

you cant really deny it. it is obvious.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

We have a form of government that is superior to the one the founding fathers envisioned. One where all are treated equally, one that has established itself as the most powerful on earth, one that is the envy of the rest of the world

FAR superior to that of the Founding "Fathers."

FAR superior to our government of the 40's and 50's

Pretty telling that some wish to go back in time

Pretty telling you have such a simplistic and twisted take on Conservatism.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

I wasn't aware I made a point like that. Really grasping at straws aren't you?

So let me get this straight....you morons are providing a false dilemma of...

"If you don't love it, go somewhere else." and that is your argument? Right? Am I getting this correct?

It is a simple point..

You obviously believe the US Government is a tyranny

Do you believe that EVERY govt on earth is a tyranny? If not, you must be able to name one that you prefer to the US. It should not be that hard

Name the Govt. we should model ourselves after

Soft tyranny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

you cant really deny it. it is obvious.

It's exactly what they want.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

We have a form of government that is superior to the one the founding fathers envisioned. One where all are treated equally, one that has established itself as the most powerful on earth, one that is the envy of the rest of the world

FAR superior to that of the Founding "Fathers."

FAR superior to our government of the 40's and 50's

Pretty telling that some wish to go back in time

Went back and read the posts... what post advocates going back in time?

 

[Annie]

I'd go about this question a bit differently, in that the federated system has been perverted, as have been the separation of powers, especially between Congress and Executive branches. In fairness, some happened during times of war, for necessity, more however has been a spineless Congress that is more than happy to allow the president to take the blame or huzzahs and they avoid.

The states have been ceding power since the Civil War, the health care legislation actually has seemed to awaken them that they do have claims on power. Wouldn't it be just a riot if this ends up leading to the ability of the states to nullify laws through amendment?

 

[Ernie S.]

You never answered what government in the world is better than ours

I wasn't aware I made a point like that. Really grasping at straws aren't you?

So let me get this straight....you morons are providing a false dilemma of...

"If you don't love it, go somewhere else." and that is your argument? Right? Am I getting this correct?

It is a simple point..

You obviously believe the US Government is a tyranny

Do you believe that EVERY govt on earth is a tyranny? If not, you must be able to name one that you prefer to the US. It should not be that hard

Name the Govt. we should model ourselves after

Oh, I don't know.... How about the US government. Not the one obama envisions, but the one outlined in the US Constitution.

 

[Skull Pilot]

No you dont, you agree with glenn Beck.

George never said the government they created was EASY he did think it was teh best government in the world though.


You hate it beacuse it doent do YOUR bidding.

You are not the final arbitor of what the contitution says.

You are merely ONE of its citizens jsut like me.

I still love it even though it does not always do my bidding.

You seem to ONLY love it when it does YOUR bidding.

I don't want the fucking government to do anything for me. i want it to leave me the fuck alone.

And BTW you have watched and listened to Beck more than I because I have not once tuned into his show. I don't need to be spoon fed my opinions like you.

That Washington quote was from a man who obviously distrusted government. How do you reconcile that when you say one must love our government?

Would you like government to leave food suppliers and producers alone so they can cut corners for profit and infect the population with e-coli or salmonella poisoning? Would you like government to leave polluters alone so they can dump their waste into our water supply and emit carcinogens in the air we breath?

I don't buy mass produced food. I buy my meat locally and raise most of my own vegetables. I don't need the FDA.

One can argue that polluting the water is tantamount to physical harm and the Constitution was written to protect individual rights.

I have not once argued for no government. Government should however not tell any individual they must do anything especially if that individual is not violating the rights of another. If I don't wear a seat belt or a helmet while riding a bike, that is my choice. I will accept the consequences. If I do not want to buy government approved insurance, I should not have to. If I want to walk around armed to the teeth, I should be able to.

The only regulation government should place on an individual is that they do not violate the rights of another. Period.

A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicity. Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address.

You really need to look at the whole picture. If we didn't have a government or it was reduced to total ineffectiveness, WHAT do you surmise would replace it, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus???

Show me where i ever argued for no government. Limited government is not the absence of government.

"The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482

Government has gone beyond its intended purpose of protecting individual rights has it not?

 

[Ernie S.]

Government is doing nothing for the poor.

Egs-friggin-zactly! They're doing nothing more than breeding more poor people. The government, in effect pays people to stay poor.
Government should be teaching people how to fish, not passing out flounder.

 

[Skull Pilot]

It is a simple point..

You obviously believe the US Government is a tyranny

Do you believe that EVERY govt on earth is a tyranny? If not, you must be able to name one that you prefer to the US. It should not be that hard

Name the Govt. we should model ourselves after

How about the one our founders envisioned? You know, limited in scope, with a narrow set of powers, those not explicit left to the states, answerable to the people, service in Congress being a part-time endeavor..... where Federal agencies aren't empowered to essentially regulate the masses.

And I'm sure I'll get some rant about people of color being 1/5 of a person... wait for it.

We have a form of government that is superior to the one the founding fathers envisioned. One where all are treated equally, one that has established itself as the most powerful on earth, one that is the envy of the rest of the world

people are not treated equally. Here are two examples:

A person with no children pays more in taxes than one with the exact same income with children.

That is not equal treatment.

A person who has a mortgage pays less in taxes than a person with the exact same income who does not have a mortgage.

That is not equal treatment.

 

[uscitizen]

...that is not an enumerated power. I'll wait.

Why would anyone trust them to do things that are "enumerated powers"?