CDZ Guns and Suicide, why are they used to promote gun control?

[GaryDog]

This is the CDZ, so I will kindly request that you statist tyrants respect the right to die

I live in Oregon, one of the very few states in the country (the only one?) that has a death with dignity law that I supported. You're insulting precisely the wrong person (in the CDZ no less).

 

[2aguy]

Again....America..with 357-400 million guns...isn't even in the top 10 for suicide.....Japan...with almost zero access to guns for law abiding citizens out ranks everyone in suicide....so it has nothing to do with access to guns....

I see you just want to spam the thread with the same data you've already presented and ignore any new arguments. Fine, but as usual, don't expect to be taken seriously.

The truth is the truth...ignoring the truth doesn't make it go away.....

Indeed, and the truth is that the presence of guns encourages suicide. Proven.

Not proven....you stating it especially shows that it isn't proven, given the number of countries with strict gun control and those with absolute gun control that have higher suicide rates.....your whole point is wrong....

I'm not stating it. A Harvard study (along with many others) states it. And it's a big reason the Republicans, and their gun-manufacturer benefactors, don't want the CDC studying it.

again......the U.S. is not even in the top 10 of countries for suicide rates...and of those countries in front of us they all have almost absolute gun control.....you are wrong...and harvard is an anti gun propaganda machine....

And again, the CDC studies gun violence, we have show you the studies...you refuse to acknowledge them...because they prove you wrong.

 

[GaryDog]

I see you just want to spam the thread with the same data you've already presented and ignore any new arguments. Fine, but as usual, don't expect to be taken seriously.

The truth is the truth...ignoring the truth doesn't make it go away.....

Indeed, and the truth is that the presence of guns encourages suicide. Proven.

Not proven....you stating it especially shows that it isn't proven, given the number of countries with strict gun control and those with absolute gun control that have higher suicide rates.....your whole point is wrong....

I'm not stating it. A Harvard study (along with many others) states it. And it's a big reason the Republicans, and their gun-manufacturer benefactors, don't want the CDC studying it.

again......the U.S. is not even in the top 10 of countries for suicide rates...and of those countries in front of us they all have almost absolute gun control.....you are wrong...and harvard is an anti gun propaganda machine....

And again, the CDC studies gun violence, we have show you the studies...you refuse to acknowledge them...because they prove you wrong.

The CDC did not do a gun study.

Why the CDC Hasn't Launched a Detailed Gun Study in 15 Years

The CDC Just Released a 'Gun Violence' Study

The NRA has blocked gun violence research for 20 years. Let's end its stranglehold on science.

Even pro-gun shills admit there's been no study:

Why we can't trust the CDC with gun research

 

[2aguy]

The truth is the truth...ignoring the truth doesn't make it go away.....

Indeed, and the truth is that the presence of guns encourages suicide. Proven.

Not proven....you stating it especially shows that it isn't proven, given the number of countries with strict gun control and those with absolute gun control that have higher suicide rates.....your whole point is wrong....

I'm not stating it. A Harvard study (along with many others) states it. And it's a big reason the Republicans, and their gun-manufacturer benefactors, don't want the CDC studying it.

again......the U.S. is not even in the top 10 of countries for suicide rates...and of those countries in front of us they all have almost absolute gun control.....you are wrong...and harvard is an anti gun propaganda machine....

And again, the CDC studies gun violence, we have show you the studies...you refuse to acknowledge them...because they prove you wrong.

The CDC did not do a gun study.

Why the CDC Hasn't Launched a Detailed Gun Study in 15 Years

The CDC Just Released a 'Gun Violence' Study

The NRA has blocked gun violence research for 20 years. Let's end its stranglehold on science.

Even pro-gun shills admit there's been no study:

Why we can't trust the CDC with gun research

You just eat up any anti gun propaganda they put out......

2015

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/25/us/cdc-gun-violence-wilmington.html?_r=0



When epidemiologists from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention came to this city, they were not here to track an outbreak of meningitis or study the effectiveness of a particular vaccine.



They were here to examine gun violence.

This city of about 70,000 had a 45 percent jump in shootings from 2011 to 2013, and the violence has remained stubbornly high; 25 shooting deaths have been reported this year, slightly more than last year, according to the mayor’s office
.-------



The final report, which has been submitted to the state, reached a conclusion that many here said they already knew: that there are certain patterns in the lives of many who commit gun violence.

“The majority of individuals involved in urban firearm violence are young men with substantial violence involvement preceding the more serious offense of a firearm crime,” the report said. “Our findings suggest that integrating data systems could help these individuals better receive the early, comprehensive help that they need to prevent violence involvement.”

Researchers analyzed data on 569 people charged with firearm crimes from 2009 to May 21, 2014, and looked for certain risk factors in their lives, such as whether they had been unemployed, had received help from assistance programs, had been possible victims of child abuse, or had been shot or stabbed. The idea was to show that linking such data could create a better understanding of who might need help before becoming involved in violence.

 

[2aguy]

The truth is the truth...ignoring the truth doesn't make it go away.....

Indeed, and the truth is that the presence of guns encourages suicide. Proven.

Not proven....you stating it especially shows that it isn't proven, given the number of countries with strict gun control and those with absolute gun control that have higher suicide rates.....your whole point is wrong....

I'm not stating it. A Harvard study (along with many others) states it. And it's a big reason the Republicans, and their gun-manufacturer benefactors, don't want the CDC studying it.

again......the U.S. is not even in the top 10 of countries for suicide rates...and of those countries in front of us they all have almost absolute gun control.....you are wrong...and harvard is an anti gun propaganda machine....

And again, the CDC studies gun violence, we have show you the studies...you refuse to acknowledge them...because they prove you wrong.

The CDC did not do a gun study.

Why the CDC Hasn't Launched a Detailed Gun Study in 15 Years

The CDC Just Released a 'Gun Violence' Study

The NRA has blocked gun violence research for 20 years. Let's end its stranglehold on science.

Even pro-gun shills admit there's been no study:

Why we can't trust the CDC with gun research

And here....just going thru the CDC website....

This is some gun research from the CEC in 2006....

Violence-Related Firearm Deaths Among Residents of Metropolitan Areas and Cities --- United States, 2006--2007

And this one....

Source of Firearms Used by Students in School-Associated Violent Deaths --- United States, 1992--1999

And this one....

http://www.thecommunityguide.org/violence/viol-AJPM-evrev-firearms-law.pdf

And this one....

Surveillance for Fatal and Nonfatal Firearm-Related Injuries --- United States, 1993--1998

And this one....

Firearm Homicides and Suicides in Major Metropolitan Areas — United States, 2006–2007 and 2009–2010

And this one...

Indoor Firing Ranges and Elevated Blood Lead Levels — United States, 2002–2013

And this one....

Rates of Homicide, Suicide, and Firearm-Related Death Among Children -- 26 Industrialized Countries


==================



------------------
Why Congress stopped gun control activism at the CDC

I was one of three medical doctors who testified before the House’s Labor, Health, Human Services, and Education Appropriations Subcommittee on March 6, 1996 about the CDC’s misdeeds. (Note: This testimony and related events are described in my three-part documented historical series). Here is what we showed the committee:

• Dr. Arthur Kellermann’s1993 New England Journal of Medicine article that launched his career as a rock star gun control advocate and gave rise to the much-repeated “three times” fallacy. His research was supported by two CDC grants.

Kellermann and his colleagues used the case control method, traditionally an epidemiology research tool, to claim that having a gun in the home triples the risk of becoming a homicide victim. In the article Kellermann admitted that “a majority of the homicides (50.9 percent) occurred in the context of a quarrel or a romantic triangle.” Still another 30 percent “were related to drug dealing” or “occurred during the commission of another felony, such as a robbery, rape, or burglary.”

In summary, the CDC funded a flawed study of crime-prone inner city residents who had been murdered in their homes. The authors then tried to equate this wildly unrepresentative group with typical American gun owners. The committee members were not amused.

• The Winter 1993 CDC official publication, Public Health Policy for Preventing Violence, coauthored by CDC official Dr. Mark Rosenberg. This taxpayer-funded gun control polemic offered two strategies for preventing firearm injuries—“restrictive licensing (for example, only police, military, guards, and so on)” and “prohibit gun ownership.”
• The brazen public comments of top CDC officials, made at a time when gun prohibitionists were much more candid about their political goals.

“We’re going to systematically build a case that owning firearms causes deaths. We’re doing the most we can do, given the political realities.” (P.W. O’Carroll, Acting Section Head of Division of Injury Control, CDC, quoted in Marsha F. Goldsmith, “Epidemiologists Aim at New Target: Health Risk of Handgun Proliferation,” Journal of the American Medical Association vol. 261 no. 5, February 3, 1989, pp. 675-76.) Dr. O’Carroll later said he had been misquoted.

But his successor Dr. Mark Rosenberg was quoted in the Washington Post as wanting his agency to create a public perception of firearms as “dirty, deadly—and banned.” (William Raspberry, “Sick People With Guns,” Washington Post, October 19, 1994.

• CDC Grant #R49/CCR903697-06 to the Trauma Foundation, a San Francisco gun control advocacy group, supporting a newsletter that frankly advocated gun control.

 

[Divine Wind]

Guns make suicide more successful, and more tempting. This has been proven across the board. Pills don't work, guns do, in the vast majority of cases.


Blathering about the overall suicide rate is comparing apples to Volkswagens.

A partial truth just like the typical anti-gun advocate who fluffs up "gun violence" statistics with a majority of suicide numbers. Robin Williams, Philip Seymour Hoffman, L’Wren Scott and Sylvia Plath would disagree that guns make suicide more successful and "more tempting". Same goes for the 21,000+ suicides each year who don't use guns.

While you are free to post your opinions, it's obvious why you don't use facts; they'd destroy your own argument.

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide-datasheet-a.pdf
....There were 41,149 suicides in 2013 in the United States—a rate of 12.6 per 100,000 is equal to 113 suicides each day or one every 13 minutes......

....In 2013, 494,169 people were treated in emergency departments for self-inflicted injuries......


FastStats
All suicides

• Number of deaths: 42,773
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 13.4
• Cause of death rank: 10

Firearm suicides

• Number of deaths: 21,334
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.7

Suffocation suicides

• Number of deaths: 11,407
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.6

Poisoning suicides

• Number of deaths: 6,808
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 2.1

 

[Onyx]

I live in Oregon, one of the very few states in the country (the only one?) that has a death with dignity law that I supported. You're insulting precisely the wrong person (in the CDZ no less).

Death with dignity is not the same as a right to die.

 

[GaryDog]

Guns make suicide more successful, and more tempting. This has been proven across the board. Pills don't work, guns do, in the vast majority of cases.


Blathering about the overall suicide rate is comparing apples to Volkswagens.

A partial truth just like the typical anti-gun advocate who fluffs up "gun violence" statistics with a majority of suicide numbers. Robin Williams, Philip Seymour Hoffman, L’Wren Scott and Sylvia Plath would disagree that guns make suicide more successful and "more tempting". Same goes for the 21,000+ suicides each year who don't use guns.

While you are free to post your opinions, it's obvious why you don't use facts; they'd destroy your own argument.

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/suicide-datasheet-a.pdf
....There were 41,149 suicides in 2013 in the United States—a rate of 12.6 per 100,000 is equal to 113 suicides each day or one every 13 minutes......

....In 2013, 494,169 people were treated in emergency departments for self-inflicted injuries......


FastStats
All suicides

• Number of deaths: 42,773
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 13.4
• Cause of death rank: 10

Firearm suicides

• Number of deaths: 21,334
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 6.7

Suffocation suicides

• Number of deaths: 11,407
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 3.6

Poisoning suicides

• Number of deaths: 6,808
• Deaths per 100,000 population: 2.1

LMAO, how on earth can you claim to know what 4 dead people would think about suicide and its relationship to the availability of guns? But with respect to Robin Williams, we know you're wrong:



And waddaya know, you're wrong about PSH, too:

Philip Seymour Hoffman Was Quietly Dedicated to Liberal Causes


None of your stats do anything to address the issue at hand. And were you intentionally trying to bolster my point with the stats you provided? There are infinite ways to kill yourself, yet guns make up more than HALF of all successful suicide attempts in America, and they firearm suicides clearly outpace other forms per the stats you provided.

Thank you for your agreement.

 

[GaryDog]

I live in Oregon, one of the very few states in the country (the only one?) that has a death with dignity law that I supported. You're insulting precisely the wrong person (in the CDZ no less).

Death with dignity is not the same as a right to die.

Sure it is. A "right to die" in Oregon just happens to be tailored to terminal illness.

 

[Onyx]

Sure it is. A "right to die" in Oregon just happens to be tailored to terminal illness.

Uh huh, so it's like how freedom speech exists in North Korea?

You have the right to say words and all, but......

 

[GaryDog]

Sure it is. A "right to die" in Oregon just happens to be tailored to terminal illness.

Uh huh, so it's like how freedom speech exists in North Korea?

You have the right to say words and all, but......

Now I have no clue what you're talking about. "Death with dignity" deals with your right to die with the help of a physician.

Anyone has a right to die, and that's not the issue at hand. Stay on topic.

 

[Onyx]

Now I have no clue what you're talking about. "Death with dignity" deals with your right to die with the help of a physician.

Anyone has a right to die, and that's not the issue at hand. Stay on topic.

No, that is inaccurate. You only have the "right to die" (bullshit) if you have a terminal illness.

If the government said I was allowed to speak, but banned half of the English dictionary, would I have freedom of speech?

 

[ChrisL]

The truth is.....countries in Europe, hailed for their gun control laws have higher rates of suicide than the United States...even with the access to guns that our people have. So, that being the case, guns are not the issue in suicide....even Japan, China and South Korea have higher suicide rates than we do and they have almost zero access to guns for law abiding citizens......

So....if guns are not the issue in suicide, why do those who advocate gun control continue to use suicide when they put a number to gun deaths. Suicide can obviously be done without guns.....

Suicide rates by country for 2013.....



http://www.newstalk.com/MAP:-Suicide-rates-around-the-world

Because, they don't really care about lives. It's nothing but political hackery and/or fear.

 

[GaryDog]

Now I have no clue what you're talking about. "Death with dignity" deals with your right to die with the help of a physician.

Anyone has a right to die, and that's not the issue at hand. Stay on topic.

No, that is inaccurate. You only have the "right to die" (bullshit) if you have a terminal illness.

If the government said I was allowed to speak, but banned half of the English dictionary, would I have freedom of speech?

Again, this is off-topic, and incredibly stupid. No part of the inclusion of suicide stats in relation to gun violence is meant to be anti-choice.

 

[Divine Wind]

LMAO, how on earth can you claim to know what 4 dead people would think about suicide and its relationship to the availability of guns? ....

Because all committed suicide without the need of a gun. Obviously a point you are either ignorant of or are desperately trying to avoid discussing. All they needed was a necktie, a scarf, "pills" aka drugs or a gas oven. Bridges, cars, water and a host of other means are available for people bent on suicide to end their lives. If LWers were really concerned about saving the 42,000+ Americans who successfully commit suicide each year, they'd be focusing on mental health care, not banning guns.

...None of your stats do anything to address the issue at hand....

On the contrary. They prove you are wrong in your assertion that without guns there's be a lot less suicides.

 

[2aguy]

Sure it is. A "right to die" in Oregon just happens to be tailored to terminal illness.

Uh huh, so it's like how freedom speech exists in North Korea?

You have the right to say words and all, but......

Now I have no clue what you're talking about. "Death with dignity" deals with your right to die with the help of a physician.

Anyone has a right to die, and that's not the issue at hand. Stay on topic.

Your premise is that more guns mean more suicide....because easy access to guns allows an easier, more fatal suicide...the fact that I have listed over 10 countries with extreme gun control that have higher suicide rates shows your premise is completely wrong...

 

[GaryDog]

Sure it is. A "right to die" in Oregon just happens to be tailored to terminal illness.

Uh huh, so it's like how freedom speech exists in North Korea?

You have the right to say words and all, but......

Now I have no clue what you're talking about. "Death with dignity" deals with your right to die with the help of a physician.

Anyone has a right to die, and that's not the issue at hand. Stay on topic.

Your premise is that more guns mean more suicide....because easy access to guns allows an easier, more fatal suicide...the fact that I have listed over 10 countries with extreme gun control that have higher suicide rates shows your premise is completely wrong...

It doesn't compare gun suicide rates. For the 10th time, that's not an apples-to-apples comparison. Hell, some northern European countries have elective doctor-assisted suicide laws, for crissakes! THink!

 

[GaryDog]

LMAO, how on earth can you claim to know what 4 dead people would think about suicide and its relationship to the availability of guns? ....

Because all committed suicide without the need of a gun. Obviously a point you are either ignorant of or are desperately trying to avoid discussing. All they needed was a necktie, a scarf, "pills" aka drugs or a gas oven. Bridges, cars, water and a host of other means are available for people bent on suicide to end their lives. If LWers were really concerned about saving the 42,000+ Americans who successfully commit suicide each year, they'd be focusing on mental health care, not banning guns.

...None of your stats do anything to address the issue at hand....

On the contrary. They prove you are wrong in your assertion that without guns there's be a lot less suicides.

No, your stats proved that guns are FAR AND AWAY the most common and successful tool used in American suicides. (That's the part you deleted with the ellipses)

 

[2aguy]

Sure it is. A "right to die" in Oregon just happens to be tailored to terminal illness.

Uh huh, so it's like how freedom speech exists in North Korea?

You have the right to say words and all, but......

Now I have no clue what you're talking about. "Death with dignity" deals with your right to die with the help of a physician.

Anyone has a right to die, and that's not the issue at hand. Stay on topic.

Your premise is that more guns mean more suicide....because easy access to guns allows an easier, more fatal suicide...the fact that I have listed over 10 countries with extreme gun control that have higher suicide rates shows your premise is completely wrong...

It doesn't compare gun suicide rates. For the 10th time, that's not an apples-to-apples comparison. Hell, some northern European countries have elective doctor-assisted suicide laws, for crissakes! THink!

You really need to step back and think about this....you think you understand it, but you have no idea what you are talking about.....

 

[2aguy]

LMAO, how on earth can you claim to know what 4 dead people would think about suicide and its relationship to the availability of guns? ....

Because all committed suicide without the need of a gun. Obviously a point you are either ignorant of or are desperately trying to avoid discussing. All they needed was a necktie, a scarf, "pills" aka drugs or a gas oven. Bridges, cars, water and a host of other means are available for people bent on suicide to end their lives. If LWers were really concerned about saving the 42,000+ Americans who successfully commit suicide each year, they'd be focusing on mental health care, not banning guns.

...None of your stats do anything to address the issue at hand....

On the contrary. They prove you are wrong in your assertion that without guns there's be a lot less suicides.

No, your stats proved that guns are FAR AND AWAY the most common and successful tool used in American suicides. (That's the part you deleted with the ellipses)

No...the countries listed show that guns are not the issue in suicide since almost all of those countries have extreme gun control...more than the United States, and they have higher suicide completion rates...showing that guns are not the issue in successful suicide and do not increase the suicide rate.......