Greece tells banking cartel STICK IT

[dcraelin]

More self-serving pap from the Theater of the Absurd.
Your claim that G.S. exerted "undue influence" on Greek gov't officials does not make it so and the claims of the former G.S. employee are equally empty.
Finally, you have no idea what prompted 61% of Greeks to vote "Oxi" but you somehow decided to make it a shot at the New Dem Party. Maybe it was just as it seemed ... a referendum in support of their loony-left leader who bought their votes by promising to end austerity.

GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.

BULLLLLLL shit

And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them

they are fuckin scum

You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.

Maybe they are scum. I don't know. What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct. Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.

The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.

Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".

you have shown me no proof

You were the one that made the original accusation. You show us proof that GS exerted "undue influence" on Greece.

you show me proof they didnt............swaps and/or derivatives are supposedly the way they did it, sure you could naively believe the politicians came up with that on their own.....or you could make an educated guess that it was the scum bankers.

 

[Steinlight]

Making me work to prove my case eh? Very well.

What is the Common Customs Tariff - European Commission

Since the completion of the internal market, goods can circulate freely between Member States. The 'Common Customs Tariff' (CCT) therefore applies to the import of goods across the external borders of the EU.​

The whole point of the European Union, was to have free trade of goods within the EU. The Euro Zone, was to have a unified currency.

If Greece is removed out of the EU, they would automatically have the Common Customs Tariff applied to them because they would now be outside the border of the EU.

Now, you are correct that they could.... in theory.... leave the Euro Zone, but not leave the EU. While that is a possibility, I highly doubt it.

The EU treaties that must be signed to join, and the EuroZone treaties, all of it is a compact of trust. Greece defaulting on all the countries of the EU, and then breaching every treaty of the EuroZone for the explicit purpose of avoiding paying back their debts.... it's hard to imagine how they wouldn't be forced out of the EU. Possible... yes. Likely? No.

Corrupt Right wing? Other than the generic corrupted politicians generally, not sure what you mean. From what I've read, Greece hasn't really been right wing in decades. New Democracy is by most estimations a "progressive center" party, and PASOK is as left wing as you can get, only surpassed by Syriza.

And most of the massive problems we see Greece in now, all happened under Kostas Simitis PASOK rule.

There is no such thing as 'undo influence' in lending. If you ask to borrow money from me, then you have to follow my requirements. That's how lending works.

If you don't want to follow my requirements.... great. Don't borrow the money.

The IMF is not dumb for lending. They always make sure they have enough legal backing to get their money back. That's why everyone hates the IMF. They don't lend out money without stipulations, and then just forgive the loan later.

The US hasn't lent much money to Greece directly. The EU taxpayers are screwed.

In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)

PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.

You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.

As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down. If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.

No, I'm denying that the influence is undue. If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence. If you don't grant me that influence... then forget you, I'm keeping my money.

The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money. Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.

There's nothing "undue" about it.

Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can. Right-wing is what you said. New Democracy is not "right-wing". Center-right. Progressive-right. But right-wing implies something that is not correct.

As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.

Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993. They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001. They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.

Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.

Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic. Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe? Perhaps. Hard to prove the counter factual either way.

But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies. Not even close. The facts are not with you.

Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

Then we agree to disagree on that. The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up. If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story. What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to. If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else. If they had refused, they would have asked someone else. If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice. As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact. "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"? Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party. And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

 

[Steinlight]

Greeks are as capable of building a Nordic or German like society as Mexicans are of building an American one. Meaning not at all.

 

[Synthaholic]

Uh...that means 75% employment.

That means depression.

It also means that there are plenty of paychecks, proving you're wrong once again.

If there were "plenty of paychecks", Greece wouldn't be in the brink of default. Pretty simple stuff here.

Dumbass, you said:

There is no money to collect

Obviously, that's incorrect if there is 75% employment.

Pretty simple stuff here.

You are the only dumbass here. If the money was there to collect, they wouldn't be in the risk of default.

That wasn't what you were arguing or what I was countering.

 

[Steinlight]

That means depression.

It also means that there are plenty of paychecks, proving you're wrong once again.

If there were "plenty of paychecks", Greece wouldn't be in the brink of default. Pretty simple stuff here.

Dumbass, you said:

There is no money to collect

Obviously, that's incorrect if there is 75% employment.

Pretty simple stuff here.

You are the only dumbass here. If the money was there to collect, they wouldn't be in the risk of default.

That wasn't what you were arguing or what I was countering.

You are the one that said Greece had plenty of paychecks to pay back this debt. Take some responsibility for your asinine posts.

 

[IsaacNewton]

The Greek parliament voted for the EU deal.

What is so hard to understand about how democracy works. You don't cram your shit down the throat of a nation of millions of people no matter what it is.

See how democracy works? It matters. To the Greek people and it matter as to how the rest of the world views Western democracies.

Cons worship money to a sick degree and crap on democracy whenever it conflicts with their worship of money.

Fascism.

 

[SAYIT]

The Greek parliament voted for the EU deal.

What is so hard to understand about how democracy works. You don't cram your shit down the throat of a nation of millions of people no matter what it is.

See how democracy works? It matters. To the Greek people and it matter as to how the rest of the world views Western democracies.

Cons worship money to a sick degree and crap on democracy whenever it conflicts with their worship of money.

Fascism.

Loony leftists will buy any idiocy.
So how was Greece's democracy usurped and how did the silliness of the past month (or 6 months) do anything to improve the lives of the people of Greece?
Tsipras's claim that the referendum got Greece a "better deal" is absurd.
Greece got fucked and they have the dog & pony (Tsipras & Varoufakis) to thank.

 

[Andylusion]

The Greek parliament voted for the EU deal.

What is so hard to understand about how democracy works. You don't cram your shit down the throat of a nation of millions of people no matter what it is.

See how democracy works? It matters. To the Greek people and it matter as to how the rest of the world views Western democracies.

Cons worship money to a sick degree and crap on democracy whenever it conflicts with their worship of money.

Fascism.

Democracy doesn't mean you can simply vote that 1 + 1 = 11. Sorry. Nor does Democracy mean that you can simply vote that other people must give you their money.

This is where you leftists are so childish. You believe both of those are true.

If the Greek people vote that the EU must give them money, then magically they must.

If the Greek people simply vote that they want high pensions, and tons of free government services, then it doesn't matter how much money they have to fund those things, it simply must be done.

This is why the US was never supposed to be a Democracy. The founding fathers were completely against the idea, for exactly this reason right here.

You think that just because voted x and y, that this makes x and y true.

Sorry, you are just wrong.

 

[Andylusion]

GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.

BULLLLLLL shit

And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them

they are fuckin scum

You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.

Maybe they are scum. I don't know. What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct. Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.

The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.

Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".

you have shown me no proof

You were the one that made the original accusation. You show us proof that GS exerted "undue influence" on Greece.

you show me proof they didnt............swaps and/or derivatives are supposedly the way they did it, sure you could naively believe the politicians came up with that on their own.....or you could make an educated guess that it was the scum bankers.

We already answered this. The Greek government specifically went to GS to ask them to provide derivatives that they could use to obscure their debt.

The banks didn't go to Greece, and asks them to buy bonds that hid their debt.

 

[Toro]

GS absolutely did NOT exert undue influence on Greece. That's garbage. Greece shopped around to find the best derivative team to hide their debt and chose GS.

BULLLLLLL shit

And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them

they are fuckin scum

You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.

Maybe they are scum. I don't know. What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct. Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.

The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.

Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".

you have shown me no proof

You were the one that made the original accusation. You show us proof that GS exerted "undue influence" on Greece.

you show me proof they didnt............swaps and/or derivatives are supposedly the way they did it, sure you could naively believe the politicians came up with that on their own.....or you could make an educated guess that it was the scum bankers.

I don't have to prove a negative to disprove an unsubstantiated claim you made.

I've dealt in swaps and derivatives. They aren't hard to understand.

Greece's debt was rising fast. They needed a way to show the world its deficit was lower than it really was. There was absolutely zero, zip, nada pressure put on the Greek government by GS for Greece to hide their own debt.

If GS was as truly nefarious as you think they are, they could have made many, many times more money by shorting Greek bonds and exposing the real level of their debt rather than the fee they made to hide their debt.

 

[dcraelin]

In modern Greek New Democracy has been the main centre-right political party (wikipedia)

PASOK had not ruled in the time of the debt run-up.....when it came to power, it was saddled with debt and debt hidden by the past administrations.

You are naive if you dont think weak or crooked government rulers dont fall prey to undo influence in borrowing money.

As I write this Tsipras seems to have caved, tho any deal will have to be approved by Parliament. I think it would be in the long term best interests of both the EU and Greece to turn it down. If so I think it would be also be short-sighted on the part of the EU to kick Greece out of the customs union.

No, I'm denying that the influence is undue. If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence. If you don't grant me that influence... then forget you, I'm keeping my money.

The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money. Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.

There's nothing "undue" about it.

Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can. Right-wing is what you said. New Democracy is not "right-wing". Center-right. Progressive-right. But right-wing implies something that is not correct.

As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.

Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993. They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001. They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.

Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.

Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic. Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe? Perhaps. Hard to prove the counter factual either way.

But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies. Not even close. The facts are not with you.

Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

Then we agree to disagree on that. The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up. If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story. What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to. If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else. If they had refused, they would have asked someone else. If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice. As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact. "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"? Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party. And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

 

[dcraelin]

BULLLLLLL shit

And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them

they are fuckin scum

You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.

Maybe they are scum. I don't know. What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct. Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.

The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.

Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".

you have shown me no proof

You were the one that made the original accusation. You show us proof that GS exerted "undue influence" on Greece.

you show me proof they didnt............swaps and/or derivatives are supposedly the way they did it, sure you could naively believe the politicians came up with that on their own.....or you could make an educated guess that it was the scum bankers.

We already answered this. The Greek government specifically went to GS to ask them to provide derivatives that they could use to obscure their debt.

The banks didn't go to Greece, and asks them to buy bonds that hid their debt.

BS you have shown no proof,.....it doesnt make any sense ...since most of the Greek government probably had no idea how derivatives would mask their debt.

 

[dcraelin]

BULLLLLLL shit

And I hope this former employee who has initiated other suits..........sues the shit out of them

they are fuckin scum

You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.

Maybe they are scum. I don't know. What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct. Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.

The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.

Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".

you have shown me no proof

You were the one that made the original accusation. You show us proof that GS exerted "undue influence" on Greece.

you show me proof they didnt............swaps and/or derivatives are supposedly the way they did it, sure you could naively believe the politicians came up with that on their own.....or you could make an educated guess that it was the scum bankers.

I don't have to prove a negative to disprove an unsubstantiated claim you made.

I've dealt in swaps and derivatives. They aren't hard to understand.

Greece's debt was rising fast. They needed a way to show the world its deficit was lower than it really was. There was absolutely zero, zip, nada pressure put on the Greek government by GS for Greece to hide their own debt.

If GS was as truly nefarious as you think they are, they could have made many, many times more money by shorting Greek bonds and exposing the real level of their debt rather than the fee they made to hide their debt.

YOU have shown no proof, and most people think derivatives and swaps are hard to understand...probably mostly because of the jargon that surrounds them.......They have been used in the US...to hoodwink a Georgia county which went into bankruptcy I believe and I also believe some bank, perhaps even Goldman-Sachs got in trouble over that.

G-S probably did just what your outlining they did.....it just hasnt come to light yet.

 

[Steinlight]

No, I'm denying that the influence is undue. If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence. If you don't grant me that influence... then forget you, I'm keeping my money.

The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money. Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.

There's nothing "undue" about it.

Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can. Right-wing is what you said. New Democracy is not "right-wing". Center-right. Progressive-right. But right-wing implies something that is not correct.

As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.

Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993. They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001. They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.

Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.

Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic. Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe? Perhaps. Hard to prove the counter factual either way.

But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies. Not even close. The facts are not with you.

Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

Then we agree to disagree on that. The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up. If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story. What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to. If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else. If they had refused, they would have asked someone else. If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice. As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact. "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"? Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party. And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

You don't get into debt from not spending. Spending beyond ones means is what creates debt.

 

[Steinlight]

No, I'm denying that the influence is undue. If you borrow money from me, I'm going to have influence. If you don't grant me that influence... then forget you, I'm keeping my money.

The Greek people, and their government, made the choice to borrow money. Therefore they made the choice to allow other countries to have influence in their government.

There's nothing "undue" about it.

Yes, I can read the Wiki on New Democracy just like you can. Right-wing is what you said. New Democracy is not "right-wing". Center-right. Progressive-right. But right-wing implies something that is not correct.

As for PASOK, they are left-wing, and claiming they didn't rule in the run up to the debt, is either an extremely narrow view of history, or intellectually dishonest.

Greek debt reached 100% of GDP back in 1993. They falsified economic data to gain entry into the Eurozone in 2001. They hosted the Olympic games in 2004, all of which on borrowed cash.

Between 2004, when New Democracy gained power, and 2007 the start of the global crash, Greek deficits were slashed.

Of course when the crash hit in 2007, it was too late to save the Titanic. Could the New Democracy center-right part done more to cut spending, and possibly avoided the catastrophe? Perhaps. Hard to prove the counter factual either way.

But you simply can not claim that this was due to right-wing policies. Not even close. The facts are not with you.

Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

Then we agree to disagree on that. The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up. If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story. What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to. If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else. If they had refused, they would have asked someone else. If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice. As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact. "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"? Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party. And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.

greece tax revenues by year - Google Search

 

[Toro]

You are already showing clearly that you have prejudice that is clouding clear facts.

Maybe they are scum. I don't know. What I do know is that, the prior poster is 100% correct. Greece shopped around to find someone to make them the derivatives they wanted, to hide their debt.

The fact you can't see, or refuse to see it, is the same logic as people who bought homes they couldn't afford, trying to blame the banks for the giving them the loan.

Time to grow up, and adopt "personal responsibility".

you have shown me no proof

You were the one that made the original accusation. You show us proof that GS exerted "undue influence" on Greece.

you show me proof they didnt............swaps and/or derivatives are supposedly the way they did it, sure you could naively believe the politicians came up with that on their own.....or you could make an educated guess that it was the scum bankers.

I don't have to prove a negative to disprove an unsubstantiated claim you made.

I've dealt in swaps and derivatives. They aren't hard to understand.

Greece's debt was rising fast. They needed a way to show the world its deficit was lower than it really was. There was absolutely zero, zip, nada pressure put on the Greek government by GS for Greece to hide their own debt.

If GS was as truly nefarious as you think they are, they could have made many, many times more money by shorting Greek bonds and exposing the real level of their debt rather than the fee they made to hide their debt.

YOU have shown no proof, and most people think derivatives and swaps are hard to understand...probably mostly because of the jargon that surrounds them.......They have been used in the US...to hoodwink a Georgia county which went into bankruptcy I believe and I also believe some bank, perhaps even Goldman-Sachs got in trouble over that.

G-S probably did just what your outlining they did.....it just hasnt come to light yet.

You make the Greeks sound like idiotic rubes. That most people think derivatives are confusing doesn't mean those in the Greek Treasury found them confusing. They knew exactly what they were doing when they wanted to find ways to hide their debts from the world.

 

[dcraelin]

Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

Then we agree to disagree on that. The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up. If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story. What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to. If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else. If they had refused, they would have asked someone else. If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice. As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact. "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"? Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party. And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

You don't get into debt from not spending. Spending beyond ones means is what creates debt.

right and taking in too little in taxes for what the country deems necessary for government is spending beyond ones means.

 

[dcraelin]

Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

Then we agree to disagree on that. The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up. If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story. What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to. If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else. If they had refused, they would have asked someone else. If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice. As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact. "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"? Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party. And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.

greece tax revenues by year - Google Search

like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing

 

[dcraelin]

you have shown me no proof

You were the one that made the original accusation. You show us proof that GS exerted "undue influence" on Greece.

you show me proof they didnt............swaps and/or derivatives are supposedly the way they did it, sure you could naively believe the politicians came up with that on their own.....or you could make an educated guess that it was the scum bankers.

I don't have to prove a negative to disprove an unsubstantiated claim you made.

I've dealt in swaps and derivatives. They aren't hard to understand.

Greece's debt was rising fast. They needed a way to show the world its deficit was lower than it really was. There was absolutely zero, zip, nada pressure put on the Greek government by GS for Greece to hide their own debt.

If GS was as truly nefarious as you think they are, they could have made many, many times more money by shorting Greek bonds and exposing the real level of their debt rather than the fee they made to hide their debt.

YOU have shown no proof, and most people think derivatives and swaps are hard to understand...probably mostly because of the jargon that surrounds them.......They have been used in the US...to hoodwink a Georgia county which went into bankruptcy I believe and I also believe some bank, perhaps even Goldman-Sachs got in trouble over that.

G-S probably did just what your outlining they did.....it just hasnt come to light yet.

You make the Greeks sound like idiotic rubes. That most people think derivatives are confusing doesn't mean those in the Greek Treasury found them confusing. They knew exactly what they were doing when they wanted to find ways to hide their debts from the world.

unlikely,

 

[Andylusion]

Then we agree to disagree on that. The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up. If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story. What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to. If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else. If they had refused, they would have asked someone else. If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice. As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact. "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"? Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party. And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.

greece tax revenues by year - Google Search

like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing

New Democracy is a center-right at best. It calls itself progressive conservative.

There hasn't really been a "right-wing" party in power in Greece.

Regardless, the worst excesses were under the PASOK left-wing part, and that has been well documented. You can simply deny it, but the facts are still not on your side.

It was the ministers under the New Democracy party that discovered that the claims made by PASOK that the deficit was only 1.5% of GDP, a lie they told to join the Eurozone, was in fact false, and the real numbers were 8.5%, way over the 3% max.

It was the ministers of New Democracy, that found out the metro rail system was so expensive, that it would have been cheaper to hire individual taxis for all of their riders, over funding the rail system.

All your "well no doubt..." crap is garbage. Facts over your opinions. Thanks.