Greece tells banking cartel STICK IT

[Andylusion]

Then we agree to disagree on that. The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up. If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story. What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to. If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else. If they had refused, they would have asked someone else. If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice. As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact. "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"? Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party. And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

You don't get into debt from not spending. Spending beyond ones means is what creates debt.

right and taking in too little in taxes for what the country deems necessary for government is spending beyond ones means.

As if you can magically collect as much in taxes as you want, to fund 'whatever the country deems'.

That's the fatal flaw in your argument. You can jack up the tax rate to 90% like FDR did, and shockingly still not have endless funds to pay for every socialist idea you come up with. You can nationalize most of the industry in your entire country, like Maoist China, and still not have money for basic health care.

Leftist are like immature children. You demand what you want, and then argue everyone should just pay for it. Like my 2 year-old nephew.... "I want I want I want", and then when you can't get what you want it's mommy governments fault for not taxing enough?

That never works in real life. I don't go out and buy a Mazada RX-8 sports car, and then show up in my bosses office where I work "well you just need to pay me more! I have a huge car payment, so you have to give me a raise".

Why not? I deemed the luxury sports car necessary, so you have to pay for it.

Isn't that the exact argument you are using for Greece? They 'deemed necessary' for Greece's pension system to cover 50% of all households in Greece. Therefore everyone must pay for those pensions. You need to all pay more in tax.

Then you are a moron, and ask "gee why are employers and companies pulling out of Greece? I don't understand? Why is unemployment rampant? I don't get it."

See you can make the tax rate whatever the heck you want. That doesn't mean you are going to get people to pay it.

http://www.economist.com/news/finan...ks-pay-more-tax-not-just-hard-risky-treasures

The economist found that 43% of labor cost was all Government levies.
Almost 1/4th of all economic activity in Greece is black market.

Why? To avoid paying taxes, and for this bloated socialist pension system.

And then you wonder why they are not collecting more tax? Because the tax rate is too high, and people are refusing to pay it. They move their business out of the country, and employees start working off the books.

Socialism is a universal failure. Greece is the poster child, the quintessential example.

 

[IsaacNewton]

The conservative fiscal model is borrow and spend. That is what has produced 18 trillion dollars of debt in the U.S. in the last 30 years.

Cons, you can't borrow your way out of debt. But that is what Raygun and Bush Jr. tried to do. At some point, like now, the bill gets so high it is nearly impossible to pay it off.

Borrow and spend: the conservative economic policy.

 

[dcraelin]

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.

greece tax revenues by year - Google Search

like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing

New Democracy is a center-right at best. It calls itself progressive conservative.

There hasn't really been a "right-wing" party in power in Greece.

Regardless, the worst excesses were under the PASOK left-wing part, and that has been well documented. You can simply deny it, but the facts are still not on your side.

It was the ministers under the New Democracy party that discovered that the claims made by PASOK that the deficit was only 1.5% of GDP, a lie they told to join the Eurozone, was in fact false, and the real numbers were 8.5%, way over the 3% max.

It was the ministers of New Democracy, that found out the metro rail system was so expensive, that it would have been cheaper to hire individual taxis for all of their riders, over funding the rail system.

All your "well no doubt..." crap is garbage. Facts over your opinions. Thanks.

the historic train of events show you to be wrong.......you can deny that but the facts are not on your side.

 

[dcraelin]

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

You don't get into debt from not spending. Spending beyond ones means is what creates debt.

right and taking in too little in taxes for what the country deems necessary for government is spending beyond ones means.

As if you can magically collect as much in taxes as you want, to fund 'whatever the country deems'.

That's the fatal flaw in your argument. You can jack up the tax rate to 90% like FDR did, and shockingly still not have endless funds to pay for every socialist idea you come up with. You can nationalize most of the industry in your entire country, like Maoist China, and still not have money for basic health care.

Leftist are like immature children. You demand what you want, and then argue everyone should just pay for it. Like my 2 year-old nephew.... "I want I want I want", and then when you can't get what you want it's mommy governments fault for not taxing enough?

That never works in real life. I don't go out and buy a Mazada RX-8 sports car, and then show up in my bosses office where I work "well you just need to pay me more! I have a huge car payment, so you have to give me a raise".

Why not? I deemed the luxury sports car necessary, so you have to pay for it.

Isn't that the exact argument you are using for Greece? They 'deemed necessary' for Greece's pension system to cover 50% of all households in Greece. Therefore everyone must pay for those pensions. You need to all pay more in tax.

Then you are a moron, and ask "gee why are employers and companies pulling out of Greece? I don't understand? Why is unemployment rampant? I don't get it."

See you can make the tax rate whatever the heck you want. That doesn't mean you are going to get people to pay it.

http://www.economist.com/news/finan...ks-pay-more-tax-not-just-hard-risky-treasures

The economist found that 43% of labor cost was all Government levies.
Almost 1/4th of all economic activity in Greece is black market.

Why? To avoid paying taxes, and for this bloated socialist pension system.

And then you wonder why they are not collecting more tax? Because the tax rate is too high, and people are refusing to pay it. They move their business out of the country, and employees start working off the books.

Socialism is a universal failure. Greece is the poster child, the quintessential example.

you people are like a broken record. A pompous moronic broken record. You've stated basically this last post for the last two or 3 posts. You have added nothing new to the debate.

you make a straw man argument about what "leftists" are for and then argue against it.

Eisenhower took the MARGINAL rate up to 91% I believe and the economy did fine. And the rich didnt pay any more on their first say $60,000 than anybody else.

I wasn't aware that companies were pulling out of Greece (then)

If it is an example, a moral lesson to anyone it is to those that put rt-leaning governments in power who say they will be responsible economic stewards..... You had your history exactly wrong in the other post.........IT was PASOK who exposed the hidden debt not New Democracy.........That was all over the papers including the WSJ,

In this country their are numerous examples, especially at the local level. Cobb Co. Georgia is building a ~$500 million dollar stadium for a billionaire with tax dollars..... pushed through against voter wishes by the "fiscally astute" "republicans". And there are Cobb CO republicans all over this country.

 

[Steinlight]

Then we agree to disagree on that. The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up. If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story. What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to. If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else. If they had refused, they would have asked someone else. If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice. As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact. "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"? Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party. And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

You don't get into debt from not spending. Spending beyond ones means is what creates debt.

right and taking in too little in taxes for what the country deems necessary for government is spending beyond ones means.

That's the thing, there is never enough revenue for you guys. Despite the fact it is increasing, both in the US and was the case in Greece before the crisis. Greece paid the price for your philosophy. The US isn't quite at that point yet. It can still be turned around here.

 

[Steinlight]

Then we agree to disagree on that. The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up. If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story. What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to. If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else. If they had refused, they would have asked someone else. If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice. As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact. "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"? Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party. And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.

greece tax revenues by year - Google Search

like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing

Increased government spending in the public sector for pensions like was the case in Greece, is not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.

 

[dcraelin]

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.

greece tax revenues by year - Google Search

like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing

Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.

yeah but principles had nothing to do with it

 

[Steinlight]

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.

greece tax revenues by year - Google Search

like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing

New Democracy is a center-right at best. It calls itself progressive conservative.

There hasn't really been a "right-wing" party in power in Greece.

Regardless, the worst excesses were under the PASOK left-wing part, and that has been well documented. You can simply deny it, but the facts are still not on your side.

It was the ministers under the New Democracy party that discovered that the claims made by PASOK that the deficit was only 1.5% of GDP, a lie they told to join the Eurozone, was in fact false, and the real numbers were 8.5%, way over the 3% max.

It was the ministers of New Democracy, that found out the metro rail system was so expensive, that it would have been cheaper to hire individual taxis for all of their riders, over funding the rail system.

All your "well no doubt..." crap is garbage. Facts over your opinions. Thanks.

Golden Dawn is the most right wing party. They are basically fascists and oppose austerity. They want to leave the EU all together. Ironically, social Democrat mismanagement has brought the rise of fascism in Greece.

 

[Steinlight]

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.

greece tax revenues by year - Google Search

like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing

Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.

yeah but principles had nothing to do with it

Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending, have failed.

 

[IsaacNewton]

Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.

greece tax revenues by year - Google Search

like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing

Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.

yeah but principles had nothing to do with it

Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending, have failed.

At least that is the lie Faux News and Dimbaugh tell you over and over until you repeat like a braying sheep.

 

[Synthaholic]

It also means that there are plenty of paychecks, proving you're wrong once again.

If there were "plenty of paychecks", Greece wouldn't be in the brink of default. Pretty simple stuff here.

Dumbass, you said:

There is no money to collect

Obviously, that's incorrect if there is 75% employment.

Pretty simple stuff here.

You are the only dumbass here. If the money was there to collect, they wouldn't be in the risk of default.

That wasn't what you were arguing or what I was countering.

You are the one that said Greece had plenty of paychecks to pay back this debt. Take some responsibility for your asinine posts.

I never said that. Now we know you're a liar as well as a wingnut.

 

[Synthaholic]

Sigh, AGAIN, if you think governments dont fall prey to UNDUE influence when it comes to borrowing money you are naive.

I believe I posted an article on here by a former Goldman Sachs employee who belives the Government of Greece has a fraud case against Goldman Sachs for just such undue influence.

The Greek people did NOT make the choice to borrow the total amount of money, Goldman Sachs helped corrupt leaders hide the excessive borrowing.

Ther were two major parties I believe in Greece for years, like here in US......I am sure the "progressive"-rt as you put it, would reject that label.....they, like here, would say they were businessmen, that they would run the government responsibly, like a business...while behind the scenes they borrowed massively................

I think the history is plain, when PASOK, came back into power after a long absence, they were the ones who did reveal the extent of the debt, I think almost a soon as they got into office.

On 1 January 1981, Greece became the tenth member of the European community. (Wikipedia) so the process was on its way well before 2001.....yes I see that PASOK was in power part of this time......but it was, Im pretty sure,like our Democractic party, just a slightly left copy of the rt/ or 'responsible businessmen party'

I find no support for your idea that new democracy slashed deficits.

I can claim that it was due to rt-wing policies.....because even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes........

Then we agree to disagree on that. The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up. If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story. What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to. If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else. If they had refused, they would have asked someone else. If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice. As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact. "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"? Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party. And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

You don't get into debt from not spending. Spending beyond ones means is what creates debt.

Like the debt created by Bush and the Republican Congress.

 

[Steinlight]

Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.

greece tax revenues by year - Google Search

like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing

Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.

yeah but principles had nothing to do with it

Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending, have failed.

At least that is the lie Faux News and Dimbaugh tell you over and over until you repeat like a braying sheep.

With that kind of post, you are showing yourself as the mindless sheep with your narrow minded and simplistic categorizations of those who disagree with you, and in this case, clearly know more than you. You aren't anything unique, or in anyway intelligent. You are just a basic bitch social Democrat with an inflated opinion if yiurself.

 

[Steinlight]

If there were "plenty of paychecks", Greece wouldn't be in the brink of default. Pretty simple stuff here.

Dumbass, you said:

There is no money to collect

Obviously, that's incorrect if there is 75% employment.

Pretty simple stuff here.

You are the only dumbass here. If the money was there to collect, they wouldn't be in the risk of default.

That wasn't what you were arguing or what I was countering.

You are the one that said Greece had plenty of paychecks to pay back this debt. Take some responsibility for your asinine posts.

I never said that. Now we know you're a liar as well as a wingnut.

Yes you did. You are so all over the place, so spaced out, you can't even keep your posts straight.

 

[Steinlight]

Then we agree to disagree on that. The evidence simply does not show that New Democracy screwed everything up. If anything, they tried to cut spending after the rampant fraud after 2004.

As for the Goldman Sachs article, yes I am extremely familiar with both sides of that story. What people seem to ignore over and over, is that Greece asked Goldman Sachs to come up with the bonds that hid the debt.

You are basically attempting to blame everything on the company, while magically ignoring the fact they did only as their customers ASKED them to. If Goldman Sachs had refused, they would have asked someone else. If they had refused, they would have asked someone else. If you are willing to pay, eventually you'll find someone to bite.

And equally, as near as I can tell, there was nothing illegal about the transaction.

Yes they did make the choice. As long as you give excuses for the choices people make, their situation will get worse.

Further, you make random accusations, without fact. "even if they did cut the budget, it was likely accompanied by irresponsibly cutting taxes"

So you condemn people based on "they likely"? Fact, tax rates were cut in 2001, under the PASOK party. And they did this while funding the massive infrastructure spending leading into the 2004 Olympic Games.

Again, the facts never support any of the crap you are just making up now.

I doubt your "facts"

it is typical for rt-wing parties nowadays to claim tax cuts will increase revenues. And I still think it likely they did so...IF PASOK actually did as you said, it just goes to show how they swallowed the rt-wing fallacy.

You just made up the idea that Greece would have asked someone else...............I bet it wasnt even their idea.........I'm not blaming it ALL on G-S....but I'm certain they have some complicity

The Greek Debt Crisis wasn't cause by tax cuts, it was caused by spending they could not afford. Debt by definition comes from spending beyond your means. Primarily from unsustainable public pensions. Greeks wanted a Northern European lifestyle, but simply don't have the economy or wherewithal to have the economy that goes with it.

Now the Greek Youth have to pay for the greediness and laziness of their parents, saddled with this massive debt and a 50% unemployment rate.

It perhaps was a little of both tax cuts and excessive spending. "by definition"? whos? only yours? too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

You don't get into debt from not spending. Spending beyond ones means is what creates debt.

Like the debt created by Bush and the Republican Congress.

So Obama defect spending us good because Bush did it? Didn't pwg you for a Dubya fan. Interesting...

 

[IsaacNewton]

like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing

Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.

yeah but principles had nothing to do with it

Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending, have failed.

At least that is the lie Faux News and Dimbaugh tell you over and over until you repeat like a braying sheep.

With that kind of post, you are showing yourself as the mindless sheep with your narrow minded and simplistic categorizations of those who disagree with you, and in this case, clearly know more than you. You aren't anything unique, or in anyway intelligent. You are just a basic bitch social Democrat with an inflated opinion if yiurself.

Oh please, you put out "your ideology is failed" and you think yourself a centrist? LOL

What ideology is that? The same one in Sweden, Switzerland, Britain, France, The Netherlands...where people are happier and medical care is good and available to everyone? That kind of failure? Or do you mean the U.S. where 1/6 of the children in the country go to bed hungry every night? Look in your own narrow minded mirror. You simply carp what Faux News and Fish Dimbaugh say every single day. The monotone drone of 'librals is evil yada yada yada yada' is the same and never stops.

You paint everyone that isn't you as 'socialist' and 'other' and 'agin all that is guud'. Sorry to break it to you but liberals are patriots, and servicemen and women, cops, firefighters, teachers...yes, walk into a fire station and yell at them how they are all socialists.

Why don't you give up on your antiquated language memes and at least come up with something new. It used to be 'commie' now its 'socialist'. What's next? These are all fabricated dog whistles that only conservatives can hear. Open YOUR mind bucko.

 

[dcraelin]

Too little in taxes could also be a part of "beyond your means"

Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.

greece tax revenues by year - Google Search

like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing

Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.

yeah but principles had nothing to do with it

Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending, have failed.

no, they have not...........Greece had a bunch of republican-like "businessmen learned in economics" at its head under NEW Democracy.............and these Cobb County like rt-wingers ran them into the ground.

 

[Steinlight]

Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.

yeah but principles had nothing to do with it

Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending, have failed.

At least that is the lie Faux News and Dimbaugh tell you over and over until you repeat like a braying sheep.

With that kind of post, you are showing yourself as the mindless sheep with your narrow minded and simplistic categorizations of those who disagree with you, and in this case, clearly know more than you. You aren't anything unique, or in anyway intelligent. You are just a basic bitch social Democrat with an inflated opinion if yiurself.

Oh please, you put out "your ideology is failed" and you think yourself a centrist? LOL

What ideology is that? The same one in Sweden, Switzerland, Britain, France, The Netherlands...where people are happier and medical care is good and available to everyone? That kind of failure? Or do you mean the U.S. where 1/6 of the children in the country go to bed hungry every night? Look in your own narrow minded mirror. You simply carp what Faux News and Fish Dimbaugh say every single day. The monotone drone of 'librals is evil yada yada yada yada' is the same and never stops.

You paint everyone that isn't you as 'socialist' and 'other' and 'agin all that is guud'. Sorry to break it to you but liberals are patriots, and servicemen and women, cops, firefighters, teachers...yes, walk into a fire station and yell at them how they are all socialists.

Why don't you give up on your antiquated language memes and at least come up with something new. It used to be 'commie' now its 'socialist'. What's next? These are all fabricated dog whistles that only conservatives can hear. Open YOUR mind bucko.

Definitely not a centrist.

Its odd you come up with France or the UK as examples of thriving social democracies, that are so much better than the US. France has record high deficits and above 10% unemployment. They are on the verge a sovereign debt crisis of there own, especially if the Greek debt they hold goes bad. The UK has a GDP per capita that is lower than every US state, except Mississippi. So much for this prosperity. Then you mention Sweden, they have the highest growing rate of economic disparity in the OECD. Due to their social democrat policies of a welfare state combined with mass third world immigration, their welfare state is experiencing strains, and pensioners and welfare recipients are seeing a decline in their benefits overall. There is a higher happiness index, but in a generation or so when Swedes become a minority in their major cities like Stockholm, as they are in Malmo, that will decline as well. The Eurozone is totally floundering. And those aforementioned economies represent the stronger countries. It is far worse, particularly in southern European countries like Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Greece obviously.

France
French unemployment rising to record high Business DW.COM 01.06.2015
Hollande says debt crisis is over. But is France really out of the woods - CSMonitor.com
French deficit and public debt will reach new records in 2015 EurActiv

UK
Britain Is Poorer Than Any US State Yes Even Mississippi - Forbes

Sweden
Sweden has lots of wealth inequality
http://www.oecd.org/social/soc/40774821.pdf
Sweden Inequality growing fastest in Sweden VoxEurop.eu European news cartoons and press reviews

As for Switzerland, that makes sense. They are a small homogenous(read almost 100% White country), with a freer market than the US, I am not surprised they are better off.
Country Rankings World Global Economy Rankings on Economic Freedom

You are living in a fantasy world where everyone who doesn't agree with your failed economic ideology is some fox news watcher, you are a cartoon. Anyone that says the US needs to implement more European style economic policies, given the sovereign debt crisis in the EU, and the economic downturn there to put it mildly, really cant be taken seriously.

 

[Steinlight]

Tax revenues went up every year in Greece since 2000, but debt went up each year with that until the crisis hit. Imagine that?Socialists never have enough money until they run out of it all.

greece tax revenues by year - Google Search

like I said it wasnt all socialists....most, and the worst was no doubt the rt-wing

Increased government spending in the public sector, like was tge case in Greece, is,not a conservative, but a left wing social Democrat principle. It clearly failed there.

yeah but principles had nothing to do with it

Principles have everything to do with it. Your ideology is failed. The principles of leftist governance, with a large welfare state and public spending, have failed.

no, they have not...........Greece had a bunch of republican-like "businessmen learned in economics" at its head under NEW Democracy.............and these Cobb County like rt-wingers ran them into the ground.

There is nothing conservative about deficit spending for public pensions. Neither PASOK or New Democracy are conservative in any way with these policies, and both drove Greece into the ground with their massive deficit spending.

Now these idiots are bringing on Fascism in Golden Dawn, thanks lefties.

 

[IsaacNewton]

You are living in a fantasy world where everyone who doesn't agree with your failed economic ideology is some fox news watcher, you are a cartoon. Anyone that says the US needs to implement more European style economic policies, given the sovereign debt crisis in the EU, and the economic downturn there to put it mildly, really cant be taken seriously.

Good, go play with your fellow mental midgets then.