Go to Church, Support Torture

[catzmeow]

Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful - CNN.com

The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey.

More than half of people who attend services at least once a week -- 54 percent -- said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is "often" or "sometimes" justified. Only 42 percent of people who "seldom or never" go to services agreed, according to the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified -- more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.

I wonder what the connection is. I'm seriously baffled as to how a follower of Christ could justify this, morally or ethically. Torture is so antithetically opposed to the message of Jesus.

Consider Matthew chapter 25, where Christ says several times:

"When you've done it unto the least of these, my brethren, you've done it unto me..."

 

[strollingbones]

good verse but they ignore it....i assure you i have posted to it before...it is simply repression...sexually etc....to follow the good book you gotz to be good....repress all that human nature and shit happens...its like..they are bad i can delight in their death..their torture etc...

but then i am just a leftists liberal who does not believe in their ways...so what do i know

 

[RetiredGySgt]

What a crock of steaming shit. An unscientific poll proves nothing but you people just LOVE to bash religion and especially Christians. Do I need to remind you I have a 1st Amendment RIGHT to believe in any religion I CHOSE? And you do not get to rabble rouse to remove that right.

Good leftist, indeed. You mean Godless heathen that shits on religion every chance you get?

My experience on this and other boards is the left is real hot to attack Christian religion but also even QUICKER to defend the hate filled murderous religion of the Muslims. Hell they are opposed to religion in school, no praying allowed, even a moment of silence is bad, BUT they willingly demand and support special rooms during Ramadan for Muslims in schools DURING school hours. They support at least one PUBLIC Religious school that is run by Islam in this country and enforces prayer during and after school hours, no problem at all.

 

[strollingbones]

What a crock of steaming shit. An unscientific poll proves nothing but you people just LOVE to bash religion and especially Christians. Do I need to remind you I have a 1st Amendment RIGHT to believe in any religion I CHOSE? And you do not get to rabble rouse to remove that right.

Good leftist, indeed. You mean Godless heathen that shits on religion every chance you get?

My experience on this and other boards is the left is real hot to attack Christian religion but also even QUICKER to defend the hate filled murderous religion of the Muslims. Hell they are opposed to religion in school, no praying allowed, even a moment of silence is bad, BUT they willingly demand and support special rooms during Ramadan for Muslims in schools DURING school hours. They support at least one PUBLIC Religious school that is run by Islam in this country and enforces prayer during and after school hours, no problem at all.

and that rant was directed at whom? i never said good leftist now did i?

 

[catzmeow]

What a crock of steaming shit. An unscientific poll proves nothing but you people just LOVE to bash religion and especially Christians.

What exactly about the poll did you find so unscientific? It was conducted by Pew, who is a very well-respected firm in the area of religious research.

Here is more about it:

The analysis is based on a Pew Research Center survey of 742 American adults conducted April 14-21. It did not include analysis of groups other than white evangelicals, white non-Hispanic Catholics, white mainline Protestants and the religiously unaffiliated, because the sample size was too small. See results of the survey »

The president of the National Association of Evangelicals, Leith Anderson, did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

The survey asked: "Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?"


Roughly half of all respondents -- 49 percent -- said it is often or sometimes justified. A quarter said it never is.

The religious group most likely to say torture is never justified was Protestant denominations -- such as Episcopalians, Lutherans and Presbyterians -- categorized as "mainline" Protestants, in contrast to evangelicals. Just over three in 10 of them said torture is never justified. A quarter of the religiously unaffiliated said the same, compared with two in 10 white non-Hispanic Catholics and one in eight evangelicals

I don't believe anyone is trying to remove your right to worship and/or associate with anyone you wish, Gy. I think the issue for me, at least, as someone who grew up as a Southern Baptist, and taught Sunday School for more than a dozen years, is how people can theologically justify torture in their own minds, based upon the message of Christ.

 

[tigerbob]

Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful - CNN.com

The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey.

More than half of people who attend services at least once a week -- 54 percent -- said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is "often" or "sometimes" justified. Only 42 percent of people who "seldom or never" go to services agreed, according to the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified -- more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.

I wonder what the connection is. I'm seriously baffled as to how a follower of Christ could justify this, morally or ethically. Torture is so antithetically opposed to the message of Jesus.

Consider Matthew 25.

"When you've done it unto the least of these, my brethren, you've done it unto me..."

I don't really think a survey gets at the truth of this issue.

A. Ask most people whether they're opposed to torture - and they'll say yes.

B. Ask them whether they see the torture of terror suspects as justifiable if it saves the lives of hundreds - and you've led them into a grey area where their answer may differ.

C. Ask them whether the torture of people who are known to have participated in terrorist attacks whether torture is justified if it may get them to reveal who else took part in planning and executing the attack - and you may get a different answer again.

It has everything to do with the way the question is worded. A lot of people who view themselves as Christians and who would normally want to do what they see as "the right thing" (example A) may struggle with the issue if it is presented to them under circumstances that are not normal (example B or C).

You can't just write off Christians as hypocrites if they struggle with concepts like this. They may be Christians, but they are also human. Humans have emotions and this is a hugely emotive issue. Nobody's perfect.

 

[catzmeow]

My experience on this and other boards is the left is real hot to attack Christian religion but also even QUICKER to defend the hate filled murderous religion of the Muslims. Hell they are opposed to religion in school, no praying allowed, even a moment of silence is bad, BUT they willingly demand and support special rooms during Ramadan for Muslims in schools DURING school hours. They support at least one PUBLIC Religious school that is run by Islam in this country and enforces prayer during and after school hours, no problem at all.

You are so right, GYS.

I'm the first one on the board to jump in and defend Islam.

 

[catzmeow]

You can't just write off Christians as hypocrites if they struggle with concepts like this. They may be Christians, but they are also human. Humans have emotions and this is a hugely emotive issue. Nobody's perfect.

For the record, I am NOT writing off Christians as hypocrites. I understand that lots of people would struggle with this issue.

I just wonder, as someone who grew up in the church, taught sunday school, and was a true believer (tm) what churches are teaching exactly these days. It seems to me like some of them have gotten off-message. And, it appears to be a denominational issue. The mainline denominations appear to strongly reject the use of torture, but the evangelicals appear to embrace it.

 

[tigerbob]

What a crock of steaming shit. An unscientific poll proves nothing but you people just LOVE to bash religion and especially Christians.

What exactly about the poll did you find so unscientific? It was conducted by Pew, who is a very well-respected firm in the area of religious research.

Here is more about it:

The analysis is based on a Pew Research Center survey of 742 American adults conducted April 14-21. It did not include analysis of groups other than white evangelicals, white non-Hispanic Catholics, white mainline Protestants and the religiously unaffiliated, because the sample size was too small. See results of the survey »

The president of the National Association of Evangelicals, Leith Anderson, did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

The survey asked: "Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?"


Roughly half of all respondents -- 49 percent -- said it is often or sometimes justified. A quarter said it never is.

The religious group most likely to say torture is never justified was Protestant denominations -- such as Episcopalians, Lutherans and Presbyterians -- categorized as "mainline" Protestants, in contrast to evangelicals. Just over three in 10 of them said torture is never justified. A quarter of the religiously unaffiliated said the same, compared with two in 10 white non-Hispanic Catholics and one in eight evangelicals

I don't believe anyone is trying to remove your right to worship and/or associate with anyone you wish, Gy. I think the issue for me, at least, as someone who grew up as a Southern Baptist, and taught Sunday School for more than a dozen years, is how people can theologically justify torture in their own minds, based upon the message of Christ.

The quarter that say it is never justified might struggle to retain that view if they were personally impacted by it.

I personally don't support the death penalty, but if my mother was murdered I might change my view, whatever the teachings of Christ are. I recognize that about myself. But if asked the question in a survey, would I answer based on how I feel now, or would I try to put myself in the position described? If the latter, my answer to the same question would probably be different.

 

[tigerbob]

You can't just write off Christians as hypocrites if they struggle with concepts like this. They may be Christians, but they are also human. Humans have emotions and this is a hugely emotive issue. Nobody's perfect.

For the record, I am NOT writing off Christians as hypocrites.

I didn't think you were. Perhaps I should have used the word "One" instead of "You". My bad.

 

[editec]

Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful - CNN.com

The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey.

More than half of people who attend services at least once a week -- 54 percent -- said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is "often" or "sometimes" justified. Only 42 percent of people who "seldom or never" go to services agreed, according to the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified -- more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.

I wonder what the connection is. I'm seriously baffled as to how a follower of Christ could justify this, morally or ethically. Torture is so antithetically opposed to the message of Jesus.

Consider Matthew chapter 25, where Christ says several times:

"When you've done it unto the least of these, my brethren, you've done it unto me..."

The answer is pretty simple, really.

People who think they're followers of Jesus often just don't understand the real message of Jesus.

 

[tigerbob]

Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful - CNN.com

The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey.

More than half of people who attend services at least once a week -- 54 percent -- said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is "often" or "sometimes" justified. Only 42 percent of people who "seldom or never" go to services agreed, according to the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified -- more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.

I wonder what the connection is. I'm seriously baffled as to how a follower of Christ could justify this, morally or ethically. Torture is so antithetically opposed to the message of Jesus.

Consider Matthew chapter 25, where Christ says several times:

"When you've done it unto the least of these, my brethren, you've done it unto me..."

The answer is pretty simple, really.

People who think they're followers of Jesus often just don't understand the real message of Jesus.

I think it's far from that simple.

 

[catzmeow]

People who think they're followers of Jesus often just don't understand the real message of Jesus.

I have come to the conclusion that there is a stronger emphasis on the social justice and human service aspect of Jesus's message in the mainstream denominations than there is in the evangelical side of things, where there seems to be more emphasis on what god does for humans, and being entertained.

*I realize this is a clear reflection of my ingrained biases having watched the S. baptist church slide into fundamentalism over the past 30 years.

 

[catzmeow]

I think it's far from that simple.

What I would say is that I think the message of Jesus is both extraordinarily simple, and extraordinarily challenging to our modern sensibilities.

For instance, consider Matthew Chapter 25, where Jesus suggests, more than once, that our actions in service to the throw-away members of society are in fact, serving Christ.

Did you ever read the book "In His Steps"? I've read it several times over the course of my life, and I found it a profound and life-changing experience. A group of ostensibly good Christian people commit, at church, to make every decision in their lives based upon what Christ would do, and to examine the details of their lives by that standard. It causes a major upheaval! People become very angry at many of them, and they end up turning their lives upside down.

I've often wondered, since reading that book, what life would be like if Christians committed to live like that.

We, as humans, approach life with an incredibly arrogant perspective. We think primarily of our own self-preservation.

But the question: "What if that person is Jesus?" is actually pretty profound.

Would you support torturing a prisoner if you knew that prisoner was actually Jesus?

If we can't treat humans, who we can see, with love, and self sacrifice, how can we ever possibly aspire to love God, who we cannot see?

I think very few Christians ever get to that level of living their faith. Christianity isn't supposed to be easy. It is supposed to be taking up the cross and following in his path.

 

[Ravi]

Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful - CNN.com

The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey.

More than half of people who attend services at least once a week -- 54 percent -- said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is "often" or "sometimes" justified. Only 42 percent of people who "seldom or never" go to services agreed, according to the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified -- more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.

I wonder what the connection is. I'm seriously baffled as to how a follower of Christ could justify this, morally or ethically. Torture is so antithetically opposed to the message of Jesus.

Consider Matthew chapter 25, where Christ says several times:

"When you've done it unto the least of these, my brethren, you've done it unto me..."

The answer is pretty simple, really.

People who think they're followers of Jesus often just don't understand the real message of Jesus.

It's more than that. Believers tend to feel most comfortable in a patriarchal structure. They want someone to protect them above all else and most Christians are still stuck in the Old Testament. Jesus never made much of an impression on them, after all even he can't do anything without God's permission.

 

[tigerbob]

I think it's far from that simple.

What I would say is that I think the message of Jesus is both extraordinarily simple, and extraordinarily challenging to our modern sensibilities.

For instance, consider Matthew Chapter 25, where Jesus suggests, more than once, that our actions in service to the throw-away members of society are in fact, serving Christ.

Did you ever read the book "What Would Jesus Do?"? I've read it several times over the course of my life, and I found it a profound and life-changing experience. A group of ostensibly good Christian people commit, at church, to make every decision in their lives based upon what Christ would do, and to examine the details of their lives by that standard. It causes a major upheaval! People become very angry at many of them, and they end up turning their lives upside down.

I've often wondered, since reading that book, what life would be like if Christians committed to live like that.

We, as humans, approach life with an incredibly arrogant perspective. We think primarily of our own self-preservation.

But the question: "What if that person is Jesus?" is actually pretty profound.

Would you support torturing a prisoner if you knew that prisoner was actually Jesus?

If we can't treat humans, who we can see, with love, and self sacrifice, how can we ever possibly aspire to love God, who we cannot see?

I think very few Christians ever get to that level of living their faith.

I think that totally hits the nail on the head.

 

[tigerbob]

Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful - CNN.com

I wonder what the connection is. I'm seriously baffled as to how a follower of Christ could justify this, morally or ethically. Torture is so antithetically opposed to the message of Jesus.

Consider Matthew chapter 25, where Christ says several times:

"When you've done it unto the least of these, my brethren, you've done it unto me..."

The answer is pretty simple, really.

People who think they're followers of Jesus often just don't understand the real message of Jesus.

It's more than that. Believers tend to feel most comfortable in a patriarchal structure. They want someone to protect them above all else and most Christians are still stuck in the Old Testament. Jesus never made much of an impression on them, after all even he can't do anything without God's permission.

I don't entirely agree with that, but I do think many Christians use the Old Testament as a 'Get out of jail free' card when the New Testament boxes them into an uncomfortable corner.

 

[Red Dawn]

Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful - CNN.com

The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey.

More than half of people who attend services at least once a week -- 54 percent -- said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is "often" or "sometimes" justified. Only 42 percent of people who "seldom or never" go to services agreed, according to the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified -- more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.

I wonder what the connection is. I'm seriously baffled as to how a follower of Christ could justify this, morally or ethically. Torture is so antithetically opposed to the message of Jesus.

Consider Matthew chapter 25, where Christ says several times:

"When you've done it unto the least of these, my brethren, you've done it unto me..."

I haven't read your article, but my guess is that it's the evangelical religious right that supports torture more than any other demographic. Obviously, not all christians can be painted with the pro-torture brush. It is interesting that the group least in favor of torture are agnositics and non-church goers.


that said, I've never thought people who profess to be christian are more or less moral than anyone else. That's not a slam, its just an observation. Hypocrisy and amorality is part of the human condition regardless if one reads some theological book or not.

I think its more political than religious. I think the evangelicals are more likely to see using evil, as an ends justify the means type of thing, than other christians groups. And I think evangelicals are the last remaining demographic that was totally pro-bush. So, I think they filter torture through a personal lens, more than a moral lens.

 

[TofuDog]

Jesus was the ultimate torture victim, so christians believe in torture for sure, the cross (instrument of torture) is their most reveared symbol. So go to church and you're confronted constantly by the holiest symbol of a guy being tortured to death... to save you. How many times the preacher pound that into your head?
Reminds me kinda like what they were doing at guantanamo... to save us from flea-bitten style impaired muslims (who btw, don't even have any weapons to threaten the US with anyways... aside from their fleas).

 

[Yurt]

yes, this must be true, because we all know the number of times you go to church determines how faithful you are...

catzmeow, you need to be a little more honest in your thread title:


It did not include analysis of groups other than white evangelicals, white non-Hispanic Catholics, white mainline Protestants and the religiously unaffiliated, because the sample size was too small.