Global Warmers Stopped by Arctic Ice

[westwall]

The Gore Effect Strikes Again

A group of adventurers, sailors, pilots and climate scientists that recently started a journey around the North Pole in an effort to show the lack of ice, has been blocked from further travels by ice.

The Polar Ocean Challenge is taking a two month journey that will see them go from Bristol, Alaska, to Norway, then to Russia through the North East passage, back to Alaska through the North West passage, to Greenland and then ultimately back to Bristol. Their objective, as laid out by their website, was to demonstrate “that the Arctic sea ice coverage shrinks back so far now in the summer months that sea that was permanently locked up now can allow passage through.”

There has been one small hiccup thus-far though: they are currently stuck in Murmansk, Russia because there is too much ice blocking the North East passage the team said didn’t exist in summer months, according to Real Climate Science.

Real Climate Science also provides a graph showing that current Arctic temperatures — despite alarmist claims of the Arctic being hotter than ever — is actually below normal.

The Polar Ocean Challenge team is not the first global warming expedition to be faced with icy troubles. In 2013, an Antarctic research vessel named Akademik Shokalskiy became trapped in the ice, the problem was so severe that they actually had to rescue the 52 crew members.

Global Warming Expedition Stopped In Its Tracks By Arctic Sea Ice

Your logic is funny.

Nothing states that there should be no ice there. You just wish it to be so.

No? Your hero's have been bleating about an ice free Arctic for years now.... Below is just one of hundreds of hysterical reports that the Arctic will be ice free. Most recently the Siearra Club was breathlessly telling me that it would be ice free by 2013. How did that work out?

"The set-up for this summer is disturbing," says Mark Serreze, of the US National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC). A number of factors have this year led to most of the Arctic ice being thin and vulnerable as it enters its summer melting season.
North Pole Could Be Ice Free in 2008

"hero's" is one hero's thing. You mean heroes.

But why would they be my heroes? Don't use such condescending crap with me.

I don't care what other people have been saying, you're not talking with those other people, you're talking with me.

Nope. Hero's is an accepted spelling of the word. And i call them that because they are the only ones you seem to pay attention to, and they have been proven wrong far, far more than they have been correct.

 

[SSDD]

Are you trying to say people can't talk about stuff because of things you decide? I disagree. You don't have to talk to me about it.

Of course not...I am saying that if you are going to talk, then perhaps you should educate yourself just a little bit on the topic...only the worst sort of alarmist wackos believe that venus is hot because of a run away greenhouse effect....and by your own admission, you have no clue as to the effect an atmosphere 90+ times as heavy as our own has on a planet's climate regardless of its composition.

As for the other stuff, you seem to be trying to impress someone, I'm not very good with people who try and impress others, I just don't get impressed. Nothing you've said contradicts anything I've said. So I think we can leave it at that, unless you actually have something to add to this debate right now.

Straight forward fact and reference to the ideal gas law impresses you? Interesting.

And everything I said contradicts you....you said "Dense means what? It can be as dense as it likes, if it doesn't have any greenhouse gases that it's dense with, then it wouldn't be hot not matter how dense it is, would it?}

To which I pointed out that Uranus has almost none of the so called greenhouse gasses in its atmosphere...its atmosphere is almost entirely made up of molecular hydrogen and helium...certainly not so called greenhouse gasses...and yet, at the bottom of its troposphere, it is warmer than here on earth...and why?...because the atmosphere is much more dense than ours......I also pointed out that if you go up in the atmosphere of venus to a place where the atmospheric pressure is the same as here on earth...and compensate for the difference in incoming solar radiation, you will find that the temperature is about the same as here on earth even though the atmosphere is almost entirely CO2....

Those are observed, measured, quantified facts and they directly contradict what you have said. Increase the pressure of a gas and you increase its temperature.

 

[SSDD]

[

Then you are a bigger denier than I am. In fact, I'm a skeptic and your position puts you on the special bus. Since you reject the GreenHouse Laws and basic physics and chemistry..

No...you are a believer....you believe in the magic, but like Ian, you just don't think it is as powerful as the hard core wackos do.....CO2 has zero effect on the climate beyond its contribution to the density of the atmosphere...which in terms of temperature would be so small that it may be generations before we have instruments sensitive enough to detect it.

 

[SSDD]

You'd never be able to land a space probe on a comet if you need to "test it" in order to figure out the guidance profile.

Are you comparing the models put into use by the aerospace industry to those produced by the climate pseudoscience circus?

 

[SSDD]

I just wanted to put this here for all those that deny Global Warming and man-made climate change.

Physicist explaining climate change to a denier on TV is grim viewing

Earth's hottest month on record was July 2016: NASA

For those too lazy to watch the video in the link here is a clip and a full video:





And for those wondering what Brian Cox's credentials are:

Brian Cox - Biography, Facts and Pictures

You are joking right? That buffoon has even less credibility than bill nye the science guy...

 

[SSDD]

You guys can't be serious? How can you possibly deny something that is believed to be true by a VAST majority of the most well educated scientist in the world? We are emitting CO2 in record numbers while continuing to decrease the amount of trees on our planet that clean the CO2 out of the air and provide us with clean oxygen.

Twice in my own life, I have not accepted medical advice believed to be true by the VAST majority of the best doctors on earth....I was told some years back that my stomach ulcer was due to stress and was told that I needed medication to help me reduce the stress...I told the doc that I wouldn't take the meds because I was probably the least stressed person he ever met....turns out I was right and the VAST majority of medical professionals were wrong and my stomach ulcer was not caused by stress....next came the recommendation for statin drugs because of my cholesterol numbers...I was told that high cholesterol caused heart disease and practically every medical professional on earth would tell me the same thing....I refused the drugs and just recently my doctor finally admitted that I was right and that cholesterol is not demonstrably responsible for heart disease...

Believing a thing because all the experts believe it is just stupid....in the long haul, you will be right more often than the experts if you just disagree with them till they have amassed enough observed, measured, quantified data to support their hypothesis....

At present, there is not the first bit of observed, measured, quantified evidence to support the claim that mankind is altering the global climate with his CO2 emissions.

And the evidence of data tampering is overwhelming...only a true denier would argue otherwise.

 

[SSDD]

Yeah that makes sense... so top scientist even to this day are quoting data that was "proven" to falsified? REALLY? Do you REALLY think top scientist would ruin their own reputation publicly using data..TODAY, in 2016, if it was proven in 2015 that the data was falsified and not correct? REALLY? You have to be joking right? You can't possibly be serious?

Happens all the time in science....it is called an error cascade...look up the term.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Are you trying to say people can't talk about stuff because of things you decide? I disagree. You don't have to talk to me about it.

Of course not...I am saying that if you are going to talk, then perhaps you should educate yourself just a little bit on the topic...only the worst sort of alarmist wackos believe that venus is hot because of a run away greenhouse effect....and by your own admission, you have no clue as to the effect an atmosphere 90+ times as heavy as our own has on a planet's climate regardless of its composition.

As for the other stuff, you seem to be trying to impress someone, I'm not very good with people who try and impress others, I just don't get impressed. Nothing you've said contradicts anything I've said. So I think we can leave it at that, unless you actually have something to add to this debate right now.

Straight forward fact and reference to the ideal gas law impresses you? Interesting.

And everything I said contradicts you....you said "Dense means what? It can be as dense as it likes, if it doesn't have any greenhouse gases that it's dense with, then it wouldn't be hot not matter how dense it is, would it?}

To which I pointed out that Uranus has almost none of the so called greenhouse gasses in its atmosphere...its atmosphere is almost entirely made up of molecular hydrogen and helium...certainly not so called greenhouse gasses...and yet, at the bottom of its troposphere, it is warmer than here on earth...and why?...because the atmosphere is much more dense than ours......I also pointed out that if you go up in the atmosphere of venus to a place where the atmospheric pressure is the same as here on earth...and compensate for the difference in incoming solar radiation, you will find that the temperature is about the same as here on earth even though the atmosphere is almost entirely CO2....

Those are observed, measured, quantified facts and they directly contradict what you have said. Increase the pressure of a gas and you increase its temperature.

The first point is I wasn't comparing Venus with the Earth. I was comparing Venus with Mercury.

The point being that Mercury hardly has an atmosphere, heat hits Mercury's surface and then bounces right out of there. On Venus it doesn't happen.

Density of the atmosphere is simply going to make this more, an increased Greenhouse Effect 92 times more than you'd get on Earth. Though Earth has more potent Greenhouse gases in its atmosphere. The heat comes in, and has to pass through 92 times more density of an atmosphere which is 96% CO2. It's going to be much harder.

This is the Greenhouse effect and this is what I was proving to someone who has literally disappeared from replying to my posts on the matter.

it doesn't need to be so complex for someone who's whole idea of science is that it's all fake and made up by these people who are trying to conspire against him and all the other right wingers.

No Greenhouse Gases? Uranus is blue because of Methane. The outer layer of the planet. Very little of Uranus's heat gets out.

The average temperature of Uranus is -200 Celsius. It doesn't have a proper surface like those planets closer to the sun, so it's different to measure this stuff anyway. Uranus's core is not as warm as other planets at 5000 K, which is colder than the Earth's which is about 6000K.

So saying Uranus is warmer at the bottom of its troposphere is a little weird

What is the Temperature of Uranus?

"The dense troposphere, which contains the planet's clouds, is frigid at minus 243 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 153 degrees Celsius) to minus 370 F (minus 218 C), making it the coldest atmosphere in the solar system. Warmed by the sun and radiation from space, the troposphere has slightly higher temperatures of minus 370 F (minus 218 C) to minus 243 F (minus 153 C). The outer layer can get was hot as 1,070 F (577 C)."

The Earth is no way that cold.

The base of the Troposphere is about 46 C, however closer to the core you're getting on for -200

The Thermosphere is about 500 C

So Uranus is increasing in temperature the further from the core you go. There's also speculation of water clouds underneath what we can't get to.

So density on Uranus appears to keep the outer layers warmer, and having some kind of potential Greenhouse Effect going on, but is so dense that potentially the heat doesn't reach the lower levels of the Troposphere, and therefore heating up only the outer layers.

But you've made a claim that if you go to the same area of pressure of Venus as on Earth, you'll get the same temperatures even though Venus is 96% CO2.
There are lots of things to take into consideration with this. Seeing as

 

[frigidweirdo]

I just wanted to put this here for all those that deny Global Warming and man-made climate change.

Physicist explaining climate change to a denier on TV is grim viewing

Earth's hottest month on record was July 2016: NASA

For those too lazy to watch the video in the link here is a clip and a full video:





And for those wondering what Brian Cox's credentials are:

Brian Cox - Biography, Facts and Pictures

You are joking right? That buffoon has even less credibility than bill nye the science guy...

Which means more credibility than anyone from One Nation.

A woman who is anti-Immigration, yet is part of a community which are immigrants, and moved to the UK (after her party went to pot) to be an immigrant to work with the BNP (far right racists) and then left to go back.

 

[frigidweirdo]

You guys can't be serious? How can you possibly deny something that is believed to be true by a VAST majority of the most well educated scientist in the world? We are emitting CO2 in record numbers while continuing to decrease the amount of trees on our planet that clean the CO2 out of the air and provide us with clean oxygen.

Twice in my own life, I have not accepted medical advice believed to be true by the VAST majority of the best doctors on earth....I was told some years back that my stomach ulcer was due to stress and was told that I needed medication to help me reduce the stress...I told the doc that I wouldn't take the meds because I was probably the least stressed person he ever met....turns out I was right and the VAST majority of medical professionals were wrong and my stomach ulcer was not caused by stress....next came the recommendation for statin drugs because of my cholesterol numbers...I was told that high cholesterol caused heart disease and practically every medical professional on earth would tell me the same thing....I refused the drugs and just recently my doctor finally admitted that I was right and that cholesterol is not demonstrably responsible for heart disease...

Believing a thing because all the experts believe it is just stupid....in the long haul, you will be right more often than the experts if you just disagree with them till they have amassed enough observed, measured, quantified data to support their hypothesis....

At present, there is not the first bit of observed, measured, quantified evidence to support the claim that mankind is altering the global climate with his CO2 emissions.

And the evidence of data tampering is overwhelming...only a true denier would argue otherwise.

Doctors can be wrong because symptoms cross over and because Doctors don't know everything.

We don't know everything about how global warming is going to work either.

With bodies doctors study the human body, and then make assessments on individual cases to the best of their knowledge.

Scientists studying global warming and such like have only one thing really to study, and they don't need to go off into individual cases.

That's not to say they're not wrong. Science has always been a "make a hypothesis and see if it's true" sort of thing.

 

[jc456]

you can't prove how warm 20 PPM of CO2 is can you?

No, and I don't need to, because CO2 isn't "warm". CO2 merely blocks what is coming in. So it all depends on how much heat is coming in for the CO2 to prevent leaving the planet.

CO2 does absorb incoming IR, and outgoing IR just leaves the atmosphere. Cools the planet. You're correct no heat so it can't warm the planet

CO2 doesn't warm the planet in itself. However the presence of CO2 in the atmosphere, and other greenhouse gases, does allow for the planet to be warmer.

It's the same as the whole gun thing. "Guns don't kill people, people do", well maybe, but people with guns kill people far better than people without guns, hence why the military gives its soldiers guns.

The planet gets warm from the sun. The same as other planets.

Hottest planet in the solar system? Venus. Why not Mercury which is closer to the sun?

How Hot is Venus?

"The reason Venus is hotter than even Mercury is not because of its position in the solar system but because of its thick, dense cloud layer."

The cloud layer is made up of greenhouse gases.

"The atmosphere of Venus is made up almost completely of carbon dioxide, with traces of nitrogen."

"The average temperature on Venus is 864 degrees Fahrenheit (462 degrees Celsius).The average temperature on Venus is 864 degrees Fahrenheit (462 degrees Celsius)."

"The nights on Venus are as warm as the days."

How Hot is Mercury?

"it boasts the most widely varying temperatures in the solar system"

"The day side of the planet reaches temperatures of up to 801 F (427 degrees C). In contrast, the chilly night side can get as cold as minus 279 F (minus 173 C)."

So, the question is, why does Mercury get down to minus 279 F and Venus doesn't. You know the answer right?

"Mercury's low mass and close proximity to the sun keep it from having anything but the thinnest of atmospheres, and this is the reason it must pass on being the hottest planet. An atmosphere helps to cloak a planet, keeping heat from leaking into space and balancing it, to some degree. Without an atmosphere, Mercury loses a great deal of heat into space, rather than sharing with its night side."

The atmosphere is lacking, so the heat is lost.

So, looking at other planets we can PROVE that the greenhouse effect exists. The Greenhouse effect makes Venus, at 66 to 107 million miles from the sun WARMER than Mercury which is 29 to 46 million miles away. That's half the distance of Venus and the sun, yet isn't warmer.

The sun heats up both Mercury and Venus, the CO2 on Venus traps this heat and causes it not to escape into the atmosphere so the heat of the sun can increase, rather than leave.

look up Diurnal Bulge.

How about you make your case, instead of asking people to look up the stuff you think will make your case?

it's called educating. read what actually keeps the planet warm after the sun goes down.

 

[SSDD]

The first point is I wasn't comparing Venus with the Earth. I was comparing Venus with Mercury.

The point being that Mercury hardly has an atmosphere, heat hits Mercury's surface and then bounces right out of there. On Venus it doesn't happen.[/qipte]

You don't think that mercury, due to its proximity to the sun absorbs energy?....and I don't guess you are aware that the albedo (doubt that you even know what the word means) is 0.75...a mirror that reflects perfectly would have an albedo of 1....care to hazard a guess as to what that means?....only 25% of the energy coming in from the sun actually penetrates the atmosphere of venus...the rest is reflected...that is why venus is so bright in the sky... earth;s albedo, by contrast is about 0.31 meaning that almost 70% of the light coming in from the sun penetrates the atmosphere.

No Greenhouse Gases? Uranus is blue because of Methane. The outer layer of the planet. Very little of Uranus's heat gets out.

You really don't spend much time actually thinking....do you. You grab on to random facts and then assume that you know what you are talking about.

Lets begin with the fact that uranus is 17 times more distant from the sun....that means that it gets very little energy from the sun....then there is the fact that the composition of the atmosphere of uranus is 83% hydrogen...15% helium....and 2% methane....then there is the fact that the albedo (remember that word) of uranus is 0.51 which means that only 49 % of the energy of the sun which is 17 times further away than earth actually penetrates the atmosphere....

The average temperature of Uranus is -200 Celsius. It doesn't have a proper surface like those planets closer to the sun, so it's different to measure this stuff anyway. Uranus's core is not as warm as other planets at 5000 K, which is colder than the Earth's which is about 6000K.

So saying Uranus is warmer at the bottom of its troposphere is a little weird

And yet, it is true...and it is not due to any greenhouse effect...it is due to the density of the atmosphere... As to the temp of venus at the same atmospheric pressure of earth...here, have a look. The altitude at which the atmospheric pressure on venus is about 55Km....look at the temperature there...around 292K
that is about 18.8C....then compensate for the difference in incoming radiation because venus is closer to the sun and you end up with a temperature of about 16C which is about the temperature here on earth... A CO2 induced greenhouse effect is nonsense and it does not exist...the observed facts prove this true.

 

[Lewdog]

You guys can't be serious? How can you possibly deny something that is believed to be true by a VAST majority of the most well educated scientist in the world? We are emitting CO2 in record numbers while continuing to decrease the amount of trees on our planet that clean the CO2 out of the air and provide us with clean oxygen.

Twice in my own life, I have not accepted medical advice believed to be true by the VAST majority of the best doctors on earth....I was told some years back that my stomach ulcer was due to stress and was told that I needed medication to help me reduce the stress...I told the doc that I wouldn't take the meds because I was probably the least stressed person he ever met....turns out I was right and the VAST majority of medical professionals were wrong and my stomach ulcer was not caused by stress....next came the recommendation for statin drugs because of my cholesterol numbers...I was told that high cholesterol caused heart disease and practically every medical professional on earth would tell me the same thing....I refused the drugs and just recently my doctor finally admitted that I was right and that cholesterol is not demonstrably responsible for heart disease...

Believing a thing because all the experts believe it is just stupid....in the long haul, you will be right more often than the experts if you just disagree with them till they have amassed enough observed, measured, quantified data to support their hypothesis....

At present, there is not the first bit of observed, measured, quantified evidence to support the claim that mankind is altering the global climate with his CO2 emissions.

And the evidence of data tampering is overwhelming...only a true denier would argue otherwise.

Science and medicine are not synonymous. Medicine is not an exact science as everyone is different and everyone's bodies react to different things differently.

 

[mamooth]

Getting back to the thread topic again, Northabout is cruising eastwards fast now, approaching the Lena River delta. Once they work through the low-concentration ice in that area, it's clear sailing the rest of the way. They won't be the first ship to circumnavigate the North Pole in one season, but they might end up finishing the earliest.

And best as I can tell, the first circumnavigation of the North Pole in one season was done by Borge Ousland in 2010. It's something that wasn't possible until recently.

 

[Weatherman2020]

They are still stuck in ice. Ice will begin growing soon.

Polar Ocean Challenge - Timeline | Facebook

 

[Weatherman2020]

Getting back to the thread topic again, Northabout is cruising eastwards fast now, approaching the Lena River delta. Once they work through the low-concentration ice in that area, it's clear sailing the rest of the way. They won't be the first ship to circumnavigate the North Pole in one season, but they might end up finishing the earliest.

And best as I can tell, the first circumnavigation of the North Pole in one season was done by Borge Ousland in 2010. It's something that wasn't possible until recently.

Yeah, Peary could have circumnavigated the pole but he had other things going.

 

[mamooth]

They are still stuck in ice. Ice will begin growing soon.

You did see the date of Aug 12 on that, right?

Now, what day is today?

And you do know the ice minimum is in September, right?

Sweet Jeebus, you're stupid.

Tracking - The Polar Ocean Challenge

Yeah, Peary could have circumnavigated the pole but he had other things going.

Again, sweet jeebus, you're stupid.

 

[Weatherman2020]

They are still stuck in ice. Ice will begin growing soon.

You did see the date of Aug 12 on that, right?

Now, what day is today?

And you do know the ice minimum is in September, right?

Sweet Jeebus, you're stupid.

Tracking - The Polar Ocean Challenge

Yeah, Peary could have circumnavigated the pole but he had other things going.

Again, sweet jeebus, you're stupid.

They started June 19. It's August 17. They aren't even 1/3 into their voyage. Ice begins growing in 3 weeks.
Do the math.

And stupid is saying people had the sailing technology a hundred years ago like we do today, stupid.

 

[Billy_Bob]

They are still stuck in ice. Ice will begin growing soon.

You did see the date of Aug 12 on that, right?

Now, what day is today?

And you do know the ice minimum is in September, right?

Sweet Jeebus, you're stupid.

Tracking - The Polar Ocean Challenge

Yeah, Peary could have circumnavigated the pole but he had other things going.

Again, sweet jeebus, you're stupid.

They started June 19. It's August 17. They aren't even 1/3 into their voyage. Ice begins growing in 3 weeks.
Do the math.

And stupid is saying people had the sailing technology a hundred years ago like we do today, stupid.

LOL.. The ice has already started to grow.... Ambient day time temps are now below 30 degrees F... and night time temps are 20 deg F,,,,

 

[frigidweirdo]

No, and I don't need to, because CO2 isn't "warm". CO2 merely blocks what is coming in. So it all depends on how much heat is coming in for the CO2 to prevent leaving the planet.

CO2 does absorb incoming IR, and outgoing IR just leaves the atmosphere. Cools the planet. You're correct no heat so it can't warm the planet

CO2 doesn't warm the planet in itself. However the presence of CO2 in the atmosphere, and other greenhouse gases, does allow for the planet to be warmer.

It's the same as the whole gun thing. "Guns don't kill people, people do", well maybe, but people with guns kill people far better than people without guns, hence why the military gives its soldiers guns.

The planet gets warm from the sun. The same as other planets.

Hottest planet in the solar system? Venus. Why not Mercury which is closer to the sun?

How Hot is Venus?

"The reason Venus is hotter than even Mercury is not because of its position in the solar system but because of its thick, dense cloud layer."

The cloud layer is made up of greenhouse gases.

"The atmosphere of Venus is made up almost completely of carbon dioxide, with traces of nitrogen."

"The average temperature on Venus is 864 degrees Fahrenheit (462 degrees Celsius).The average temperature on Venus is 864 degrees Fahrenheit (462 degrees Celsius)."

"The nights on Venus are as warm as the days."

How Hot is Mercury?

"it boasts the most widely varying temperatures in the solar system"

"The day side of the planet reaches temperatures of up to 801 F (427 degrees C). In contrast, the chilly night side can get as cold as minus 279 F (minus 173 C)."

So, the question is, why does Mercury get down to minus 279 F and Venus doesn't. You know the answer right?

"Mercury's low mass and close proximity to the sun keep it from having anything but the thinnest of atmospheres, and this is the reason it must pass on being the hottest planet. An atmosphere helps to cloak a planet, keeping heat from leaking into space and balancing it, to some degree. Without an atmosphere, Mercury loses a great deal of heat into space, rather than sharing with its night side."

The atmosphere is lacking, so the heat is lost.

So, looking at other planets we can PROVE that the greenhouse effect exists. The Greenhouse effect makes Venus, at 66 to 107 million miles from the sun WARMER than Mercury which is 29 to 46 million miles away. That's half the distance of Venus and the sun, yet isn't warmer.

The sun heats up both Mercury and Venus, the CO2 on Venus traps this heat and causes it not to escape into the atmosphere so the heat of the sun can increase, rather than leave.

look up Diurnal Bulge.

How about you make your case, instead of asking people to look up the stuff you think will make your case?

it's called educating. read what actually keeps the planet warm after the sun goes down.

How about you make your case instead of fucking around.