From Whence the Universe?

Discussion in 'Science and Technology' started by 5stringJeff, Oct 13, 2006.

  1. 5stringJeff
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    5stringJeff Senior Member

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    GIVEN: The universe exists. Either:

    A) The universe has always existed, or
    B) The universe began to exist.

    If A is true (i.e. the universe has always existed), then the universe has existed for an infinite amount of time.
    If that is true, then, by the second law of thermodynamics (which states, "the entropy of an isolated system not at equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value"), all the energy in the universe would be effectively disbursed at equilibrium, and the whole universe would be at about .1 degrees Kelvin.
    However, we do not observe the universe as such.
    Therefore, A is false, and the universe had a beginning.

    If the universe had a beginning, either:
    A) the universe created itself, or
    B) the universe was created by something else.

    A cannot be true, because an object cannot be its own efficient cause. Therefore, the universe must have been created by a Creator.
     
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  2. onedomino
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    onedomino SCE to AUX

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    It has not been thought for 50 or 60 years that the Universe, in its current manifestation, "always existed." There has been a large amount of evidence accumulated during that time supporting the "Big Bang Theory." Fred Hoyle, who published diring the 1950s, was the main proponent of the alternative "Steady State Theory." While it has been shown that the rate of the Universe’s expansion from the Big Bang is increasing, it has not been demonstrated that the rate of expansion will not ultimately slow and reverse; finally concluding in a singularity from which another Big Bang will occur. No one yet knows if there is enough Dark Matter in the Universe to reverse the expansion or not. Thus there is no conclusive evidence to negate the possibility that the Universe is in fact in a Steady State that contains an infinite number of expansions and contractions. Thus, your argument as expressed above fails, and you are going to have to continue to rely on faith for your belief in the existence of God. There are many ongoing experiments designed to quantify the amount of Dark Matter in the Universe. Fred Hoyle would be amused. We are trying to figure out if the Universe comes only in just this edition, or whether what we observe now is just one chapter in an infinite story of multiple expansions and contractions.

    By the way,

     
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  3. Gunny
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    Gunny Gold Member

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    ITA. I always get a kick out of the "something from nothing" theory; which, defies physical law.
     
  4. 5stringJeff
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    5stringJeff Senior Member

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    The argument still holds. Let's say there is enough dark matter to reverse the expansion of the universe. You are still faced with the question of whether the universe either: A) has been expanding and collapsing from all eternity, or B) it began existing at some point and then began expanding and collapsing. If it has been expanding and collapsing from all eternity, then you run into the inifinite regress problem, i.e. we could not have passed through an infinite amount of time (or an infinite amount of iterations) to arrive at Today. Therefore, the universe still must have had a beginning, regardless of whether there is enough dark matter to cause a universal contraction.
     
  5. onedomino
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    onedomino SCE to AUX

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    Why is it possible that there may be an infinite number of expansions and contractions in the future, but that there must somehow be a first cause in the past? There is no scientific reason for this. It requires faith. The blackbody radiation measurement referred to above holds no meaning for any future or previous iteration of the Universe since no information is known that can leak beyond the cusp of the singlarity. Stephen Hawking's view, for example, is that what has occurred in previous Universe expansions is essentially unknowable because no information can move beyond its meeting with the singularity. It may turn out that there has not been multiple iterations of the Universe. But to know this we need to measure the amount of Dark Matter. It is the number one research problem in astrophysics.
     
  6. 5stringJeff
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    5stringJeff Senior Member

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    It's the law of causation. Every effect must have a cause.

    Regardless of whether we have had multiple iterations of the universe or not, there had to be some type of beginning (see above).
     
  7. Nienna
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    Nienna Senior Member

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    I think that is what he is arguing... that the iterations may have occurred infinitely in the past, and therefore may have had no beginning.
     
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  8. 5stringJeff
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    5stringJeff Senior Member

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    Which would lead to an infinite regress, which is impossible.
     
  9. Dr Grump
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    Dr Grump Gold Member

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    Not all things are impossible Jeff.

    Using your logic, who created the Creator?
     
  10. manu1959
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    manu1959 Left Coast Isolationist

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    i will give it a go.........the creator is not subject to the second law of thermodynamics and is not an object and thus can be its own efficient cause.
     

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