For all the Bush-bashers

Discussion in 'Middle East - General' started by Moi, Nov 22, 2003.

  1. Moi
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    Moi Active Member

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    No one can argue that the inspectors have found a nuclear warhead nor have they found everything they were searching for. However, they have found enough evidence to suggest that the government of Iraq indeed had the intent, capability and subterfuge enough to be a threat to the rest of the world, the US in particular. The President of the United States did not make the decision alone- the Senate and House also voted to enter this fight based upon information from many sources. I'm sure that none of those people heard President Bush say that Iraq was a threat and took him at his word. They saw the same evidence and heard the same counsel as the President. Each of them, over 200 people, believed the same thing- that Iraq was a threat and that the only way to contain them was to invade.

    Challange that assertion after the fact if you will- hindsight is 20/20 you know. But lump them all in the same boat then. None of the people who voted to invade Iraq had a gun to their head and presumably since they were popularly elected they are the voices of the people.

    As far as the evidence, here it is. Attached are some excerpts from the report given to congress regarding the search for weapons in Iraq. The report is dated 10/2/03 so the information contained in it is relatively current. Read the whole report on the internet at the following site:
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/kay-20031008.html


    "We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002

    In addition to the discovery of extensive concealment efforts, we have been faced with a systematic sanitization of documentary and computer evidence in a wide range of offices, laboratories, and companies suspected of WMD work. The pattern of these efforts to erase evidence - hard drives destroyed, specific files burned, equipment cleaned of all traces of use - are ones of deliberate, rather than random, acts.

    With regard to biological warfare activities, which has been one of our two initial areas of focus, ISG teams are uncovering significant information - including research and development of BW-applicable organisms, the involvement of Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) in possible BW activities, and deliberate concealment activities. All of this suggests Iraq after 1996 further compartmentalized its program and focused on maintaining smaller, covert capabilities that could be activated quickly to surge the production of BW agents.

    Debriefings of IIS officials and site visits have begun to unravel a clandestine network of laboratories and facilities within the security service apparatus. This network was never declared to the UN and was previously unknown. We are still working on determining the extent to which this network was tied to large-scale military efforts or BW terror weapons, but this clandestine capability was suitable for preserving BW expertise, BW capable facilities and continuing R&D - all key elements for maintaining a capability for resuming BW production. The IIS also played a prominent role in sponsoring students for overseas graduate studies in the biological sciences, according to Iraqi scientists and IIS sources, providing an important avenue for furthering BW-applicable research. This was the only area of graduate work that the IIS appeared to sponsor.

    One noteworthy example is a collection of reference strains that ought to have been declared to the UN. Among them was a vial of live C. botulinum Okra B. from which a biological agent can be produced. This discovery - hidden in the home of a BW scientist - illustrates the point I made earlier about the difficulty of locating small stocks of material that can be used to covertly surge production of deadly weapons. The scientist who concealed the vials containing this agent has identified a large cache of agents that he was asked, but refused, to conceal. ISG is actively searching for this second cache.

    Let me turn now to chemical weapons (CW). In searching for retained stocks of chemical munitions, ISG has had to contend with the almost unbelievable scale of Iraq's conventional weapons armory, which dwarfs by orders of magnitude the physical size of any conceivable stock of chemical weapons. For example, there are approximately 130 known Iraqi Ammunition Storage Points (ASP), many of which exceed 50 square miles in size and hold an estimated 600,000 tons of artillery shells, rockets, aviation bombs and other ordinance. Of these 130 ASPs, approximately 120 still remain unexamined. As Iraqi practice was not to mark much of their chemical ordinance and to store it at the same ASPs that held conventional rounds, the size of the required search effort is enormous.

    With regard to Iraq's nuclear program, the testimony we have obtained from Iraqi scientists and senior government officials should clear up any doubts about whether Saddam still wanted to obtain nuclear weapons. They have told ISG that Saddam Husayn remained firmly committed to acquiring nuclear weapons. These officials assert that Saddam would have resumed nuclear weapons development at some future point. Some indicated a resumption after Iraq was free of sanctions. At least one senior Iraqi official believed that by 2000 Saddam had run out of patience with waiting for sanctions to end and wanted to restart the nuclear program. The Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission (IAEC) beginning around 1999 expanded its laboratories and research activities and increased its overall funding levels. This expansion may have been in initial preparation for renewed nuclear weapons research, although documentary evidence of this has not been found, and this is the subject of continuing investigation by ISG.

    Starting around 2000, the senior Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission (IAEC) and high-level Ba'ath Party official Dr. Khalid Ibrahim Sa'id began several small and relatively unsophisticated research initiatives that could be applied to nuclear weapons development. These initiatives did not in-and-of themselves constitute a resumption of the nuclear weapons program, but could have been useful in developing a weapons-relevant science base for the long-term. We do not yet have information indicating whether a higher government authority directed Sa'id to initiate this research and, regretfully, Dr. Said was killed on April 8th during the fall of Baghdad when the car he was riding in attempted to run a Coalition roadblock.

    Despite evidence of Saddam's continued ambition to acquire nuclear weapons, to date we have not uncovered evidence that Iraq undertook significant post-1998 steps to actually build nuclear weapons or produce fissile material. However, Iraq did take steps to preserve some technological capability from the pre-1991 nuclear weapons program."
     
  2. SLClemens
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    Where is this from?

    I'd highly recommend the following interview: http://informationclearinghouse.info/article4868.htm

    This was worth 500 coalition and thousands upon thousands of Iraqi deaths? How terrible could it have been to allow the inspectors to finish their work, Iraqi obstinacy and all?
     
  3. jimnyc
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    jimnyc ...

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    Yes, it unfortunately sometimes requires loss of life in war to save lives. How many people were dying daily because of Saddam? Weekly? Yearly? How many Iraqi lives should have been lost before removing Saddam?
     
  4. SLClemens
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    We don't know for sure, but it would not have been 500 coalition citizens and the numbers of Iraqis we've seen die as unwilling conscripts in the wrong place, collateral damage, and in civil disorder. Perhaps over a long time it would have amounted to more. We'll never know, and we'll only know in many years whether life turned out better for the average Iraqi.
     
  5. jimnyc
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    jimnyc ...

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    It's extremely doubtful that the number of fatalities will even come close to the claimed number of deaths under Saddam's rule. Those numbers range between 500,000 and 1 million.
     
  6. SLClemens
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    How many of those deaths (pick your estimate, they vary so much) happened after 1992?
     
  7. Moi
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    Moi Active Member

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    I suggest you ask the families of the people killed on September 11th how many Iraqis it would be worth. I'm sure you'd get a different answer to that question than if you asked me. But I'll answer it anyway. Yes, freedom from the threat of Iraq is worth whatever it takes. Let me remind you that if you do not agree with the policies of this country you have the right to relocate to a country who consistently conducts themselves according to your ideals. But let me guess why you stay? Economic security, the ability to say and do whatever you want, freedom from relgious persecution. The types of things you cannot get as readily in other countries.
     
  8. SLClemens
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    I've heard very different things from the families of those who lost loved ones in in 9/11. One thing I hear from them on which there seems to be unanimity is that they would like better answers from investigations into why it happened, with fuller disclosures of information.

    9/11 would have happened regardless of whether Saddam was in power. Removing him will not prevent another one. What a terrible legacy to those massacred to use their deaths as justifcation for such an invasion.

    I recently read of one story of a group of incredibly brave Americans doing something to help prevent terrorism that did not involve war. How nice to see it reported in the Arab press at: http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2002-01/18/article55.shtml . I'm confident that if people in the Middle East see more of this and less of our 500lbs bombs exploding there will be less anti-American terrorism in the future.
     
  9. jimnyc
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    Estimates are around 500,000, mostly children under the age of 5.

    Saddam's refusal to abide by resolutions was rather costly. He put his personal well being above his entire country and cost the lives of an unimaginable amount of people.
     
  10. SLClemens
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    So why not try to negotiate a deal whereby he allows human-rights inspectors in, in exchange for a lifting of sanctions. This many children were not dying before 1990 - though kurds were getting massacred and Iraqi and Iranian troops were committing mass suicide - but only after sanctions. Even if Saddam had spent all the money he did on palaces on childrens health the increase in deaths would have been horrific.

    Yet, there are places in the world that have infant and child mortality rates just as high as Iraq has had over the past decade. Why are we not so interested in them?
     

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