Egyptian (Muslim Brotherhood) Morsi to be overthrown?-Military Moves in to take over

[Osomir]

obama already suspended aid to Egypt. He had to. There are a couple of laws he's not willing to break.

I've worked with the suspension of US economic programs as a result of coups before (particularly in Mali). Just because aid is suspended doesn't mean that it is cut off for the rest of his presidential term.

So I ask again: Why would the Egyptian government spurn that?

You know obama is seething over his butt buddy getting his ass handed to him.

How was Morsi Obama's "butt buddy"? Congratulating him on his election and supporting Egypt's right to hold elections doesn't make Morsi a close friend, nor does it make him a puppet.

 

[Osomir]

Yeah, please do show me the poll numbers, lets see how many muslims want democracy...

Majorities in just about every country polled: [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Who-Speaks-For-Islam-Billion/dp/1595620176/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372959619&sr=8-1&keywords=who+speaks+for+islam]Amazon.com: Who Speaks For Islam?: What a Billion Muslims Really Think (9781595620170): John L. Esposito, Dalia Mogahed: Books[/ame]

It's the most comprehensive poll on global Islamic thought in the world to date.

Even heavily Islamist countries that were supportive of strong shariah law favored freedom of speech and that included 94% of the Egyptian population sample polled.

But also show me how muslims describe democracy too. Ask them if they would be ok people exercising their democratic rights on streets. Lets see if any gays can hang around holding hands in any muslim country...

There are many democratic countries in which homosexuality is / was illegal. The UK comes to mind, the birthplace of modern democracy and the Magna Carta. The UK didn't decriminalize it until the mid 20th century.

That aside, everyone has their own understandings of how democracy should be set up. Very few countries follow our model with our primarily two party system rooted in the electoral college. That doesn't mean that other countries can't have greater political freedoms and a representative government through elections.

Muslims like to give "democracy" term such a twist, it would be a shame for any human being not to be able to achieve that level in its twisted shape. Even Mussolini would be considered a democrat in such terms.

I remember a quote from one of these islamic bullshit parties during the unrest in Turkey, he was saying: "They are lucky we are democrats, otherwise we would just step them over".

You do realize that most people in Turkey, regardless of their political affiliation are Muslims yeah? They don't only exist in your quoted party.

 

[alpine]

Yeah, please do show me the poll numbers, lets see how many muslims want democracy...

Majorities in just about every country polled: [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Who-Speaks-For-Islam-Billion/dp/1595620176/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372959619&sr=8-1&keywords=who+speaks+for+islam]Amazon.com: Who Speaks For Islam?: What a Billion Muslims Really Think (9781595620170): John L. Esposito, Dalia Mogahed: Books[/ame]

It's the most comprehensive poll on global Islamic thought in the world to date.

Even heavily Islamist countries that were supportive of strong shariah law favored freedom of speech and that included 94% of the Egyptian population sample polled.

But also show me how muslims describe democracy too. Ask them if they would be ok people exercising their democratic rights on streets. Lets see if any gays can hang around holding hands in any muslim country...

There are many democratic countries in which homosexuality is / was illegal. The UK comes to mind, the birthplace of modern democracy and the Magna Carta. The UK didn't decriminalize it until the mid 20th century.

That aside, everyone has their own understandings of how democracy should be set up. Very few countries follow our model with our primarily two party system rooted in the electoral college. That doesn't mean that other countries can't have greater political freedoms and a representative government through elections.

Muslims like to give "democracy" term such a twist, it would be a shame for any human being not to be able to achieve that level in its twisted shape. Even Mussolini would be considered a democrat in such terms.

I remember a quote from one of these islamic bullshit parties during the unrest in Turkey, he was saying: "They are lucky we are democrats, otherwise we would just step them over".

You do realize that most people in Turkey, regardless of their political affiliation are Muslims yeah? They don't only exist in your quoted party.

Of course they wanted freedom of speech, because they were being oppressed. All middle east countries have been dictated by military leaders against islamic movements throughout the history. SO your poll totally makes sense.

But on the other hand, you know what islamists do as soon as they have a grasp of power from the military? Democracy no more.

A famous word of an islamist leader "Democracy is a tool for us, not the ultimate goal". And he got %55 vote, and also liked by the opposing party. Look at Turkey. Turkish islamists were oppressed for decades, and they complained to the European Union courts, that they did not have their democratic freedoms recognized by militaristic regime. And as soon as they took the control, instead of providing freedom, they took the same ropes miltary was using against them and used is against opposing seculars. A funny video, a Turkish secular is so addicted to the police tear gassing him, he was asking one capsule for the road

So here is the dilemma in mid east: is it democratic to oppress religion when it is against religion?

And there is no answer to that.

 

[Katzndogz]

obama already suspended aid to Egypt. He had to. There are a couple of laws he's not willing to break.

I've worked with the suspension of US economic programs as a result of coups before (particularly in Mali). Just because aid is suspended doesn't mean that it is cut off for the rest of his presidential term.

So I ask again: Why would the Egyptian government spurn that?

You know obama is seething over his butt buddy getting his ass handed to him.

How was Morsi Obama's "butt buddy"? Congratulating him on his election and supporting Egypt's right to hold elections doesn't make Morsi a close friend, nor does it make him a puppet.

Why do the Egyptians consider obama a close friend of morsi? The Egyptians despise obama. Ann Patterson was obama's hand in Egypt. She spoke with his voice and supported morsi in everything. She supported the muslim brotherhood in all acts and decisions.

Anne Patterson: Symbol of young Egyptians' mistrust of America - The Economic Times

As her bosses in Washington struggle to exert even modest influence over the events in Cairo, Patterson, 63, has been portrayed as a sinister force by pro- and antigovernment protesters alike: a defender of the status quo as well as a troublemaker who schemes with the opposition.

"She's being lambasted because she's the face of America," said Vali Nasr, a former US State Department official who worked with Patterson when she was ambassador to Pakistan.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Obama assisted Morsi in gaining power by shutting out other political candidates who never had a chance because they shoved that thing through. He was behind Morsi every step of the way and helped him at every turn. It was his mistake and he will have to own it.

He had the opportunity to assist the Egyptian Military and refused. He'll live with that decision too. They no longer trust him. Syrians don't like Obama either. He's lost his halo.

 

[Vikrant]

There is a difference between democracy and theocracy and I have noticed some people on this board mistake one for another.

 

[Trajan]

Breaking-

Updated July 5, 2013, 11:38 a.m. ET

Egypt Protests Turn Violent
Brotherhood Has Urged Peaceful Demonstrations But Reports of Violence Emerge


CAIRO—Egypt's Army and the Muslim Brotherhood issued clashing reports Friday over the events at angry Cairo demonstrations in support of ousted President Mohammed Morsi—with Mr. Morsi's Muslim Brotherhood accusing the army of shooting and killing at least three pro-Morsi demonstrators, and the Army saying its forces had fired blanks into the air.

Meanwhile, interim President Adly Mansour issued a presidential declaration dissolving the Shura Council, the Islamist-dominated legislative body that has managed most legislative duties since courts dissolved the parliament's lower house last summer, according to Egyptian state television. Mr. Mansour also appointed Rafa'at Shehatta as an adviser to the president for security affairs and Mohammed Ahmed Farid as head of General Intelligence, according to state television.

Egypt Protests Turn Violent - WSJ.com

 

[prepster]

obama already suspended aid to Egypt. He had to. There are a couple of laws he's not willing to break.

I've worked with the suspension of US economic programs as a result of coups before (particularly in Mali). Just because aid is suspended doesn't mean that it is cut off for the rest of his presidential term.

So I ask again: Why would the Egyptian government spurn that?

You know obama is seething over his butt buddy getting his ass handed to him.

How was Morsi Obama's "butt buddy"? Congratulating him on his election and supporting Egypt's right to hold elections doesn't make Morsi a close friend, nor does it make him a puppet.

Morsi is not Obama's "butt buddy". He was supported by the US for the sake of influencing his policies, quite like the rest of Egypt's leaders. We have to work with whichever person is in power, and the US was forced to work with Mursi. Personally, I do not agree with how the US has been working with Mursi, particularly in continuing military and economic assistance, which receives a disproportionate amount of funds in comparison to democracy promotion efforts.

In addition, I do not particularly like the policies of Mursi in of itself. For the most part, he continued the policies of the Mubarak regime, other the fact that he operated in an Islamic democratic framework, and received more political pressure from Salafi groups. This is why civil society groups like Tamarod, Kefaya, and April 6 Movement have been actively criticizing Mursi for months. It was just a matter of time that something would give.

 

[Osomir]

There is a difference between democracy and theocracy and I have noticed some people on this board mistake one for another.

Having a state religion doesn't make a country a theocracy.

 

[Osomir]

obama already suspended aid to Egypt. He had to. There are a couple of laws he's not willing to break.

I've worked with the suspension of US economic programs as a result of coups before (particularly in Mali). Just because aid is suspended doesn't mean that it is cut off for the rest of his presidential term.

So I ask again: Why would the Egyptian government spurn that?

You know obama is seething over his butt buddy getting his ass handed to him.

How was Morsi Obama's "butt buddy"? Congratulating him on his election and supporting Egypt's right to hold elections doesn't make Morsi a close friend, nor does it make him a puppet.

Why do the Egyptians consider obama a close friend of morsi? The Egyptians despise obama. Ann Patterson was obama's hand in Egypt. She spoke with his voice and supported morsi in everything. She supported the muslim brotherhood in all acts and decisions.

Anne Patterson: Symbol of young Egyptians' mistrust of America - The Economic Times

As her bosses in Washington struggle to exert even modest influence over the events in Cairo, Patterson, 63, has been portrayed as a sinister force by pro- and antigovernment protesters alike: a defender of the status quo as well as a troublemaker who schemes with the opposition.

"She's being lambasted because she's the face of America," said Vali Nasr, a former US State Department official who worked with Patterson when she was ambassador to Pakistan.

The US was disliked under Obama before. Why? Our support of Israel. We also used our aid money to push the Morsi government towards continuing the peace deal with Israel which has some aspects that are very unpopular with the Egyptian people. Saying they hate us isn't a shocker, the Egyptian people aren't really going to like our administrations until we change our Israel policy.

 

[Vikrant]

There is a difference between democracy and theocracy and I have noticed some people on this board mistake one for another.

Having a state religion doesn't make a country a theocracy.

As soon as a country starts to support a particular religion over others with taxpayer's money, it starts to compromise the principles of democracy. There are some European countries that are guilty of this as well.

 

[Osomir]

There is a difference between democracy and theocracy and I have noticed some people on this board mistake one for another.

Having a state religion doesn't make a country a theocracy.

As soon as a country starts to support a particular religion over others with taxpayer's money, it starts to compromise the principles of democracy. There are some European countries that are guilty of this as well.

That's fine if you feel that way, I tend to as well; but that doesn't make them a theocracy. Your statement was hyperbole at best.

 

[Vikrant]

I did not say that having a state religion makes a country theocracy. There are plenty of European countries that have declared Christian faith as state religion but allow people of all faiths to participate in elections. UK, a Christian monarchy is a good example of that. It becomes a theocracy when the election process and the governing process is guided by a particular religion. The most obvious example would be Iran.

 

[alpine]

I've worked with the suspension of US economic programs as a result of coups before (particularly in Mali). Just because aid is suspended doesn't mean that it is cut off for the rest of his presidential term.

So I ask again: Why would the Egyptian government spurn that?



How was Morsi Obama's "butt buddy"? Congratulating him on his election and supporting Egypt's right to hold elections doesn't make Morsi a close friend, nor does it make him a puppet.

Why do the Egyptians consider obama a close friend of morsi? The Egyptians despise obama. Ann Patterson was obama's hand in Egypt. She spoke with his voice and supported morsi in everything. She supported the muslim brotherhood in all acts and decisions.

Anne Patterson: Symbol of young Egyptians' mistrust of America - The Economic Times

As her bosses in Washington struggle to exert even modest influence over the events in Cairo, Patterson, 63, has been portrayed as a sinister force by pro- and antigovernment protesters alike: a defender of the status quo as well as a troublemaker who schemes with the opposition.

"She's being lambasted because she's the face of America," said Vali Nasr, a former US State Department official who worked with Patterson when she was ambassador to Pakistan.

The US was disliked under Obama before. Why? Our support of Israel. We also used our aid money to push the Morsi government towards continuing the peace deal with Israel which has some aspects that are very unpopular with the Egyptian people. Saying they hate us isn't a shocker, the Egyptian people aren't really going to like our administrations until we change our Israel policy.

So you really think Egyptians will like US, if US change her policies?

For instance, if US had a different policy against USSR, communists would like US?

Egypt need US as an enemy, more than a friend. Because they need someone to blame each time they fuck it up. This is the same reality for all countries in that region.

Have you ever seen a Chinese man burning an American flag? Do you think Chinese love US more than Arabs do? US have been supporting Taiwan as much as he does Israel and yet you don't see any Chinese blaming it on the west each time they fuck up. But mid easterners bitch; it was the US, it was the EU, it was the crab people, it was the aliens, it was this and it was that.... on every possible opportunity.

As I said before, mid east would be a paradise for people in depression. No pressure at all. Even if you fuck up royally, you have west to blame on at the end. Paradise....

 

[Osomir]

So you really think Egyptians will like US, if US change her policies?

Doesn't mean they wont dislike us for other reasons, but our support of israel was generally the cited reason long before Morsi came into power. People were expecting Morsi to cancel a very unpopular gas deal with israel and be more supportive of the Palestinians. Our aid dollars to Egypt ensured that didn't happen and that was in part a disappointment. There are of course other major issues such as the economy (not really Morsi's or Obama's fault, Egypt was doomed to a tough time in that area regardless) and the constitutional crisis. The major area where Morsi actually messed up was trying to break the constitutional deadlock by granting himself temporary incredibly ridiculous extra powers. I could understand his frustration, but that was a horrible move that reeked of the old regime and cost him a lot of support (as it should have).

Egypt need US as an enemy, more than a friend. Because they need someone to blame each time they fuck it up. This is the same reality for all countries in that region.

This is an incredibly overly simplistic understanding of Egypt's domestic political discourse and a little self absorbed to think that we matter that much.

Have you ever seen a Chinese man burning an American flag? Do you think Chinese love US more than Arabs do? US have been supporting Taiwan as much as he does Israel

No we haven't. We don't even recognize Taiwan as an independent country. We have a neutral status quo stance in place concerning China and Taiwan. We've been backing off of support for Taiwan since Reagan.

and yet you don't see any Chinese blaming it on the west each time they fuck up. But mid easterners bitch; it was the US, it was the EU, it was the crab people, it was the aliens, it was this and it was that.... on every possible opportunity.

The history of the Middle East and china is very different. We had political spheres of influence in China but it was never as bad as many of our colonial grabs in the Middle East and Northern Africa. there is some bitter sentiment there for pretty good historical reasons. Egypt for example has been invaded on several occasions by the French, the British, and by Israel during the Suez Canal Crisis.

 

[Osomir]

As I said before, mid east would be a paradise for people in depression. No pressure at all. Even if you fuck up royally, you have west to blame on at the end. Paradise....

The entire existence of the Arab Spring demonstrations would seem to shatter your above theory. The same with the existence of Al Qaeda for that matter. Not trying to be patronizing here, but perhaps you should spend a little more time actually following internal Middle Eastern political discourse before jumping to such generalized conclusions.

 

[alpine]

As I said before, mid east would be a paradise for people in depression. No pressure at all. Even if you fuck up royally, you have west to blame on at the end. Paradise....

The entire existence of the Arab Spring demonstrations would seem to shatter your above theory. The same with the existence of Al Qaeda for that matter. Not trying to be patronizing here, but perhaps you should spend a little more time actually following internal Middle Eastern political discourse before jumping to such generalized conclusions.

No worries, I was born and raised in one of those shit holes and I can read and speak most of the languages in that area. So when I am saying mid east is a paradise for depression, I base it on something, "a real life experience", unlike just putting words on the air.

In middle east, if you want popular support, you have to be against west. This has been the same way starting from the Ottoman, 1800s, when west was superior in technology and muslim military power was fading. Than when British and German started with their struggle for oil, Brits got the Arabs back, Germans got the Turks back, and they both had the same policy, throw shit to the other side. Bot sides claimed the other one was allied with infidels. And that has not changed a bit from that point on. They have a reason each time they fuck up now. Army suporters claim Morsi got the western support, the infidels, so should be punished. And Morsi supporters claim army got the western support, and should be punished

Look at Turkey for instance, the most "democratic" and close to the west state, in the last protests, both sides, again, claimed the other side being backed by the western powers.

This is the reality of the mid east. It is a tradition of politics. You can not even exist, without blaming it on the west. This is how it worked as long as I have known myself, and able to track back in the history. My whole childhood was listening stories how west did that, did this, just like how you guys listened to the same stories against the communists. You were lucky communism no more. It is not easy to get out of this loop, for a society that has been in it for the last 200 years, tough like a mother...

So; to summarize, mid east is doomed till they figure out blaming it on others will not help you solve your problems, like Chinese did long time ago.

 

[Osomir]

As I said before, mid east would be a paradise for people in depression. No pressure at all. Even if you fuck up royally, you have west to blame on at the end. Paradise....

The entire existence of the Arab Spring demonstrations would seem to shatter your above theory. The same with the existence of Al Qaeda for that matter. Not trying to be patronizing here, but perhaps you should spend a little more time actually following internal Middle Eastern political discourse before jumping to such generalized conclusions.

No worries, I was born and raised in one of those shit holes and I can read and speak most of the languages in that area. So when I am saying mid east is a paradise for depression, I base it on something, "a real life experience", unlike just putting words on the air.

In middle east, if you want popular support, you have to be against west. This has been the same way starting from the Ottoman, 1800s, when west was superior in technology and muslim military power was fading. Than when British and German started with their struggle for oil, Brits got the Arabs back, Germans got the Turks back, and they both had the same policy, throw shit to the other side. Bot sides claimed the other one was allied with infidels. And that has not changed a bit from that point on. They have a reason each time they fuck up now. Army suporters claim Morsi got the western support, the infidels, so should be punished. And Morsi supporters claim army got the western support, and should be punished

Look at Turkey for instance, the most "democratic" and close to the west state, in the last protests, both sides, again, claimed the other side being backed by the western powers.

This is the reality of the mid east. It is a tradition of politics. You can not even exist, without blaming it on the west. This is how it worked as long as I have known myself, and able to track back in the history. My whole childhood was listening stories how west did that, did this, just like how you guys listened to the same stories against the communists. You were lucky communism no more. It is not easy to get out of this loop, for a society that has been in it for the last 200 years, tough like a mother...

So; to summarize, mid east is doomed till they figure out blaming it on others will not help you solve your problems, like Chinese did long time ago.

I don't know where exactly you are from or what your family background is like, but given my own experience in counter-terrorism, and Middle Eastern and African political affairs I still find it to be grossly overly simplistic.

You also addressed neither the Arab Spring, nor the existence of many of Al Qaeda's affiliates who are all largely regionally focused despite their ideological commitment to targeting the US.

Perhaps if I knew what country you were from originally I could utilize an example in your own country's / region's history.

 

[Kondor3]

There is a difference between democracy and theocracy and I have noticed some people on this board mistake one for another.

Hmmmm... I dunno... WE worship MONEY and it's a MoneyOcracy alright...

 

[alpine]

The entire existence of the Arab Spring demonstrations would seem to shatter your above theory. The same with the existence of Al Qaeda for that matter. Not trying to be patronizing here, but perhaps you should spend a little more time actually following internal Middle Eastern political discourse before jumping to such generalized conclusions.

No worries, I was born and raised in one of those shit holes and I can read and speak most of the languages in that area. So when I am saying mid east is a paradise for depression, I base it on something, "a real life experience", unlike just putting words on the air.

In middle east, if you want popular support, you have to be against west. This has been the same way starting from the Ottoman, 1800s, when west was superior in technology and muslim military power was fading. Than when British and German started with their struggle for oil, Brits got the Arabs back, Germans got the Turks back, and they both had the same policy, throw shit to the other side. Bot sides claimed the other one was allied with infidels. And that has not changed a bit from that point on. They have a reason each time they fuck up now. Army suporters claim Morsi got the western support, the infidels, so should be punished. And Morsi supporters claim army got the western support, and should be punished

Look at Turkey for instance, the most "democratic" and close to the west state, in the last protests, both sides, again, claimed the other side being backed by the western powers.

This is the reality of the mid east. It is a tradition of politics. You can not even exist, without blaming it on the west. This is how it worked as long as I have known myself, and able to track back in the history. My whole childhood was listening stories how west did that, did this, just like how you guys listened to the same stories against the communists. You were lucky communism no more. It is not easy to get out of this loop, for a society that has been in it for the last 200 years, tough like a mother...

So; to summarize, mid east is doomed till they figure out blaming it on others will not help you solve your problems, like Chinese did long time ago.

I don't know where exactly you are from or what your family background is like, but given my own experience in counter-terrorism, and Middle Eastern and African political affairs I still find it to be grossly overly simplistic.

You also addressed neither the Arab Spring, nor the existence of many of Al Qaeda's affiliates who are all largely regionally focused despite their ideological commitment to targeting the US.

Perhaps if I knew what country you were from originally I could utilize an example in your own country's / region's history.

We can take Syria as an example, since it is a hot topic. What does Arab Spring mean for Syria? Who is fighting whom for what reason?

As far as my knowledge on the region is concerned, there are 2 camps all over the area. One is the military, effected by the nationalist ideas of the west during its encounter in a desperate act of modernization; and the islamists camp, like muslim brotherhood and varieties, who see western freedom ideas as a tool rather than a target.

Once upon a time there was more variety in the political scene, like socialists and liberals, but the cold war made it impossible for them to gain any ground against those main stream camps. So the traditional politics of the middle east depends on these 2 camps struggling each other. A political party has no chance in any election, democratic or not, if they can not penetrate in either of these. So as a politician, you either a secularist against islamists, or an islamist against secularists. I can show this same pattern in any nation, with or without the so called Arab Spring, that did not have a revolutionary power vacuum like Iran, which the same pattern applied before the revolution.