'don't Impose Your Values' Argument Is Bigotry In Disguise

[DaTroof]

I think that Christian organizations do wonderful work all over the globe. God bless them. I've donated to some and I'm Jewish. If they convert through example and not coertion, more power to them.

That said, I still believe that there should not be a moment of silence before school. That's what homeroom is for. The pledge of allegience is quite enough. Feel free to consider homeroom as your moment of zen. A moment of silence still represents some prayer ... Christian or otherwise. As Billy said "A rose by any other name ... ". Why can't we just seperate God, a being that I may believe in profoundly, but which I do not need to impose upon those that don't, from government suported institutions. If the non-believers are sinning, but not hurting anyone but perhaps themselves to a certain acceptable level, then I am perfectly content to let God punish them. The virtues of good and bad are intrisic and do not require God's commandments to be held as true (though shall not kill, steal, covet OPP, etc etc), so teach your children well and that should be enough.

 

[Hobbit]

Atheism is NOT a lack of religion. You believe something, namely that there is no God. The lack of a higher power does not make it any less of a religion, simply a unique one. If you were agnostic and neither believed in God nor his non-existance, then there would be a lack of religion. As it is, your beliefs in the supernatural are all formed around your faith based belief that there is no God, and if you don't believe it's faith-based, then provide me with ONE piece of solid evidence that there is not God.

Now that I've taken care of that, lemme tell you a couple of things. First, yes, all Christians believe that our religion is the correct one, or else we wouldn't follow it, so do Muslims, Hindus, atheists, Buddhists, Shintoists, Pagans, Rastafarrians, etc. However, unlike many Muslims, who act very violently towards other religions (exceptions on both sides, but walk into the middle of Saudi Arabia, declare that you're a Christian, and watch what happens), and many atheists, who try to suppress all mention of another religion, Christians, in general (and trust me, I know a LOT more Christians than you do) are willing to tolerate others. We simply tell you what we believe with the hope that you'll believe it. We don't try to force it, since we believe free will was one of the greatest gifts from God. Instead, we just try to convince. Christianity also encourages acceptance of everyone (even if not their actions), obedience of law, gifts to charity, etc. Why anyone thinks it's a good idea to get rid of it is beyond me.

Lastly, I don't know what squirming you're referring to. Evidently, you think my statement about a moment of silence is tapdancing. Well, it's not. It's the truth. If I had to take a moment of silence every morning, I'd be studying or playing tetris on my calculator. Prayer, I do in church and in the privacy of my home/dorm/wherever I live. When I saw the moment of silence proposal (outside of this thread), I thought it was a great idea, but I didn't even think about religion implications until atheists started bashing it as a disguised prayer time.

Missile, on the subject of religion, you are a bitter, hateful person who seems to be hostile towards anything resembling Christianity. From the way you're posting, the only way Christians can be non-offensive to you is if you cease to be able to tell us apart from the rest of the general population. Well, you wanna tell us what it is we do that makes you mad so much? Usually, when I see problems like this, it's stemmed from some past bad experience. Would you like to tell us what happened, or is this just an irrational hatred?

And explain to me how Christian relief funds, who offer humanitarian aid with absolutely no strings attached, and also offer Christianity on the side (they aren't forcing, like you seem to think), is a bad thing. So the guys set the soup kitchen up in front of the church they built. There's no law stating anyone has to go inside.

 

[Bonnie]

A moment of silence still represents some prayer .

Think about that for a moment, you could then say that about all moments of silence in school including when a teacher says to students to be quiet and do work. There is no difference!! All of you that are objecting to this are taking matters way too far past any kind of reason? And I have to wonder why?

 

[DaTroof]

"you could then say that about all moments of silence in school including when a teacher says to students to be quiet and do work."

Which part of "represents" do you have such a hard time with. When you have a moment of silence to comemorate fallen heros it represents respect and honor for those people who sacrificed. The teachers moment of silence represents time out or punishment. And the moment of silence before school represents prayer and reflection. I say it's, at best, contravertial. Why not leave it out. This coming from a Jew who prayed twice a day in school ... but it was a private school. Therein lies the difference.

I am not an atheist, and I don't condone any infered moment of respect for a being that may or may not exist (yes, I believe she does). Why is it that you think the lord needs this moment in a government funded facility ?!

Also, maybe you can explain the blue ribbon laws that do not allow me to buy alcohol on Sunday mornings ? How is that not a clear violation of seperation ?!

 

[MissileMan]

Atheism is NOT a lack of religion. You believe something, namely that there is no God. The lack of a higher power does not make it any less of a religion, simply a unique one. If you were agnostic and neither believed in God nor his non-existance, then there would be a lack of religion. As it is, your beliefs in the supernatural are all formed around your faith based belief that there is no God, and if you don't believe it's faith-based, then provide me with ONE piece of solid evidence that there is not God.

Go get your dictionary! Religion is a belief in god, a creator, a super-natural being. Lack of religion is not a religion in itself. By your reasoning, health is a disease with no symptoms. My non-belief comes from a lack of one solid piece of evidence that god exists.

Now that I've taken care of that, lemme tell you a couple of things. First, yes, all Christians believe that our religion is the correct one, or else we wouldn't follow it, so do Muslims, Hindus, atheists, Buddhists, Shintoists, Pagans, Rastafarrians, etc. However, unlike many Muslims, who act very violently towards other religions (exceptions on both sides, but walk into the middle of Saudi Arabia, declare that you're a Christian, and watch what happens), and many atheists, who try to suppress all mention of another religion, Christians, in general (and trust me, I know a LOT more Christians than you do) are willing to tolerate others. We simply tell you what we believe with the hope that you'll believe it. We don't try to force it, since we believe free will was one of the greatest gifts from God. Instead, we just try to convince.

In other words, the 4 billion non-christians in the world are all condemned to christian hell, that's sounds awfully tolerant to me.

You call yourselves tolerant, but you call someone who disagrees with you hateful, or a nazi, or yanker. Thin skin appears to be a trait of both ends of the political spectrum. You call yourselves tolerant, but aren't tolerant enough of others' traditions and religions to offer help where needed without feeling compelled to displace native religions that in some cases predate christianity. I wasn't talking about shelters or soup kitchens. I don't dispute that there are a lot of praiseworthy christian efforts to relieve suffering, especially here in the U.S.

I started off asking the simple question "Why can't your kids pray before they go to school?" and all of a sudden I'm the f*ckin anti-christ. I don't hate christians, or christianity, or any other religion for that matter. I find the belief of an invisible, super-natural being as illogical as believing in Santa Claus. I object to the introduction of that illogicality into the public school system. Despite your protestations and tap-dancing, that is your ultimate goal. You are the ones taking offense to my position.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

In other words, the 4 billion non-christians in the world are all condemned to christian hell, that's sounds awfully tolerant to me.

Just because a christian may think you're going to hell doesn't mean you will actually go there. It's not like a curse.

Why are you afraid of silence?

 

[MissileMan]

Just because a christian may think you're going to hell doesn't mean you will actually go there. It's not like a curse.

Why are you afraid of silence?

Are you saying that you don't even believe in your own religion?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Are you saying that you don't even believe in your own religion?

Are you saying that christians have to believe everyone is going to heaven? You don't believe in it, but if THEY do, you want to make sure it's an equal opportunity heaven, in THEIR minds? This seems like political correctness run amok. You're accusing christians of thoughtcrime.

 

[Bullypulpit]

What is missing in this debate is discussion of the foundation of morals and ethics. Are these moral and ethical foundations handed down from some infallible supreme deity on high for us mere mortals to try and live up to? Or are they the result of understanding that one's actions have real consequences to this life and in this world?

 

[MissileMan]

Are you saying that christians have to believe everyone is going to heaven?

No! But don't christians believe that only those who have accepted JC as their savior will be allowed into heaven, and that everyone else will go to hell? Or is it everyone else might go to hell?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

No! But don't christians believe that only those who have accepted JC as their savior will be allowed into heaven, and that everyone else will go to hell? Or is it everyone else might go to hell?

Christians have a right to believe you're going to hell. They don't have a right to harm you in any way due to this belief. Just as you may believe there's no god, they may believe you're going to hell. It's a free country.

 

[TheEnemyWithin]

No! But don't christians believe that only those who have accepted JC as their savior will be allowed into heaven, and that everyone else will go to hell? Or is it everyone else might go to hell?

Yes, they DO, MissileMan. Does that offend you??

 

[MissileMan]

Yes, they DO, MissileMan. Does that offend you??

Which is it...will, or might?

 

[MissileMan]

Christians have a right to believe you're going to hell. They don't have a right to harm you in any way due to this belief. Just as you may believe there's no god, they may believe you're going to hell. It's a free country.

Let's see if we can back up a bit and get back to what we were talking about. You have strayed way off course.

I said, "In other words, the 4 billion non-christians in the world are all condemned to christian hell, that's sounds awfully tolerant to me."

You replied, "Just because a christian may think you're going to hell doesn't mean you will actually go there. It's not like a curse."

My next question, "Are you saying that you don't even believe in your own religion?" was intended to find out if you believe that those who fail to accept JC as their savior are going to hell or not. Your religion says yes, but you say maybe?...which is it?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Let's see if we can back up a bit and get back to what we were talking about. You have strayed way off course.

I said, "In other words, the 4 billion non-christians in the world are all condemned to christian hell, that's sounds awfully tolerant to me."

You replied, "Just because a christian may think you're going to hell doesn't mean you will actually go there. It's not like a curse."

My next question, "Are you saying that you don't even believe in your own religion?" was intended to find out if you believe that those who fail to accept JC as their savior are going to hell or not. Your religion says yes, but you say maybe?...which is it?

No. Let's get rational, shall we? You seem to imply that christians thinking you're going to hell is intolerant, i'm saying it's not intolerant. They may think of you what they please. Do you think the government should legislate our opinions of each other?
Now we're REALLY back on track. You weren't doing as well as you thought you were, are you?

 

[rtwngAvngr]

All things in their place. A public discussion of knitting during the showing of a movie in a theater would be inappropriate. What is the purpose of a church if not to hold public discussions of one's religion?

Just because churches exist doesn't mean you can stifle the free speech of others.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Can't you make your points without discussing me in particular? Most people chime in on this this topic just fine with no knowledge of my existence. I do feel flattered actually.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Hey MissileInfant, how about a "don't ask, don't tell" policy for christians? Would that suit you?

 

[MissileMan]

Can't you make your points without discussing me in particular? Most people chime in on this this topic just fine with no knowledge of my existence. I do feel flattered actually.

Was this directed at me?

Hey MissileInfant, how about a "don't ask, don't tell" policy for christians? Would that suit you?

I've never implied anything even remotely akin to that, and don't look now, but your tolerance is showing again.

No. Let's get rational, shall we? You seem to imply that christians thinking you're going to hell is intolerant, i'm saying it's not intolerant.

OK, we disagree whether it's tolerant or not.

They may think of you what they please.

No argument, never suggested otherwise.

Do you think the government should legislate our opinions of each other?

Nope, never suggested that either.

Now we're REALLY back on track. You weren't doing as well as you thought you were, are you?

I'm doing so well that you continually avoid answering 2 simple questions that are on topic and valid. So, why don't you stop trying to put words in MY mouth and put your money where YOUR mouth is and answer those 2 questions.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Was this directed at me?


I've never implied anything even remotely akin to that, and don't look now, but your tolerance is showing again.


OK, we disagree whether it's tolerant or not.

No argument, never suggested otherwise.

Nope, never suggested that either.

I'm doing so well that you continually avoid answering 2 simple questions that are on topic and valid. So, why don't you stop trying to put words in MY mouth and put your money where YOUR mouth is and answer those 2 questions.

What are you suggesting then? You've denied alot. You seem to think it's intolerant for anyone to believe you're going to hell. You want nothing short of thoughtcontrol.

Other than that you seem to be obsessed with my personal life. That's a not a valid point either.