Do you believe oil is a limited resource?

[akelch]

Another questions to ask yourself. How is so many old "tapped out" oil wells being refilled?

 

[mamooth]

The conspiracy theory would be taken more seriously if there was even one single well pumping these supposed vast quantities of abiotic oil.

There isn't. No one anywhere has found anything beyond a trace of abiotic oil. That would be the very, very strong evidence that the stuff doesn't exist in quantity. The burden of proof is clearly on those claiming it must exist. They need to demonstrate how the stuff can supposedly exist in vast quantities everywhere, yet simultaneously be completely impossible to find.

To a neutral observer, abiotic oil looks to be one of the many odd conspiracy theories that the extreme right wing fringe cult is strongly encouraged to embrace. It reinforces want they want to believe in, the belief of a vast socialist conspiracy arrayed against them.

 

[KissMy]

Another questions to ask yourself. How is so many old "tapped out" oil wells being refilled?

That is easy to understand when you realize where the oil came from & how it became trapped in a dome reservoir into which the well was drilled. Many will fill up or replenish multiple times.

 

[akelch]

The conspiracy theory would be taken more seriously if there was even one single well pumping these supposed vast quantities of abiotic oil.

There isn't. No one anywhere has found anything beyond a trace of abiotic oil. That would be the very, very strong evidence that the stuff doesn't exist in quantity. The burden of proof is clearly on those claiming it must exist. They need to demonstrate how the stuff can supposedly exist in vast quantities everywhere, yet simultaneously be completely impossible to find.

To a neutral observer, abiotic oil looks to be one of the many odd conspiracy theories that the extreme right wing fringe cult is strongly encouraged to embrace. It reinforces want they want to believe in, the belief of a vast socialist conspiracy arrayed against them.

Theory is that all oil is abiotic. Just because there is organic matter found it it doesn't mean organic matter made it.
Water has organic matter in it too.

What is odd to me is that if oil is made by millions of years of decaying plants and animals then one would suppose that it would be everywhere and not just in the arctic and at the bottom of the ocean. Plus how does it form such large pools....would it make since that it would saturated in the ground?
Plus, how can oil be found so deep in the earth? Are you saying that there is enough decaying planets and animals buried 30,000 feet down that can produce millions of barrels of oil from one deposit?

To many questions to be so sure.

 

[mamooth]

Oil isn't formed by decaying plants and animals. That would be coal. Oil is formed by decaying algae. And the same chemical markers are found in the algae and the oil. The abiotic theory has no explanation for that.

The standard oil formation theory leads to finding oil where the theory predicts oil will be found. That would be why it's accepted, because it makes predictions that come true. That's how science works. Abiotic oil theory has failed in its predictions, hence it is not accepted.

Right now, my claim that magical fairies have created unlimited oil has as much support as the abiotic oil theory. The lack of finding any oil with the fairy theory doesn't mean it's wrong. After all, can you disprove that the fairies did it?

 

[Mr. H.]

Oil isn't formed by decaying plants and animals. That would be coal. Oil is formed by decaying algae. And the same chemical markers are found in the algae and the oil. The abiotic theory has no explanation for that.

The standard oil formation theory leads to finding oil where the theory predicts oil will be found. That would be why it's accepted, because it makes predictions that come true. That's how science works. Abiotic oil theory has failed in its predictions, hence it is not accepted.

Right now, my claim that magical fairies have created unlimited oil has as much support as the abiotic oil theory. The lack of finding any oil with the fairy theory doesn't mean it's wrong. After all, can you disprove that the fairies did it?

That makes me wonder why people risk millions of dollars drilling holes in the ground knowing full well that they've got a 1 in 8 chance of finding economic quantities of oil.
Even with the best of science. And if they're successful they end up burdened by a 44% effective tax rate. After all that, they're faced with Obama's proposed budget that includes over $40 billion in taxes on the oil and gas industries.

 

[akelch]

Oil isn't formed by decaying plants and animals. That would be coal. Oil is formed by decaying algae. And the same chemical markers are found in the algae and the oil. The abiotic theory has no explanation for that.

The standard oil formation theory leads to finding oil where the theory predicts oil will be found. That would be why it's accepted, because it makes predictions that come true. That's how science works. Abiotic oil theory has failed in its predictions, hence it is not accepted.

Right now, my claim that magical fairies have created unlimited oil has as much support as the abiotic oil theory. The lack of finding any oil with the fairy theory doesn't mean it's wrong. After all, can you disprove that the fairies did it?

That's a lot of algae!!! Especially in weird places like deserts and the arctic. Not to mention being 30,000 feet deep.

 

[akelch]

Refilling of oil wells that were once thought to be "tapped out".

http://mobile.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/on-energy/2011/09/14/abiotic-oil-a-theory-worth-exploring

How can this be if it takes millions of years to make oil?

 

[joewp]

Theory is that all oil is abiotic. Just because there is organic matter found it it doesn't mean organic matter made it.
Water has organic matter in it too.

I've been reading this thread with bemusement at the apparent lack of basic science education apparent in the American public. There isn't "organic matter" found in oil, oil is organic matter. "of, relating to, or derived from living organisms", as the dictionary says. In this context, organic matter is molecules containing carbon, mostly derived from photosynthesis. Water is hydrogen dioxide, no carbon in there.

What is odd to me is that if oil is made by millions of years of decaying plants and animals then one would suppose that it would be everywhere and not just in the arctic and at the bottom of the ocean.

It was made by decaying marine plants and animals in two periods, 75 and 150 mya during periods of extreme global warming. Because the poles had mostly melted, there were shallow oceans in places like Texas, Saudi Arabia, and Venezuela. The excess Co2 allowed the organisms to grow until they used up the oxygen in the water, died and sunk to the bottom where they didn't decay due to the lack of oxygen and were covered with sediment and through plate techtonics, were moved through the 'oil window' so the pressure and heat of the lower crust could break them down into simple and complex carbon chains, which we call 'oil'.

This theory of oil formation is tested every single time a new well is drilled. Petroleum geologists use this theory to conjecture where there might be undiscovered oil in the world. The discovery of oil on the North Slope of Alaska was dependent on this theory. No one would have invested the time and money to drill there if the prevailing theory of oil formation hadn't been proven time and time again.

Abiotic oil, not so much.

Real science isn't theories, it's experimentation and observation. So far, the biotic theory of oil formation has been proven time and time again. Abiotic oil is a pipe dream hypothesis that has no basis in reality.

Plus how does it form such large pools....would it make since that it would saturated in the ground?

The process described above happened in more places in the world than we can find oil today. One of the key ingredients to make an oil reservoir worth drilling is something called "cap rock", a layer of impervious rock that traps the oil. Most of the time that doesn't happen, and the oil does eventually seep out to the ground. Tens of thousands of years ago, a large seep occurred in what we call Los Angeles, and thousands of ancient animals got caught in the resulting tar, which is what is left over after the lighter components of crude oil evaporate, leaving the heavier components, mostly asphalt and tar.

Ya know, geology is a fascinating subject, and petroleum geology is even more fascinating. More people should learn this stuff. I can tell by this thread that most people have no idea.

Plus, how can oil be found so deep in the earth? Are you saying that there is enough decaying planets and animals buried 30,000 feet down that can produce millions of barrels of oil from one deposit?

To many questions to be so sure.

First of all, it's not "millions of barrels", it's billions of barrels. If it's not several hundred millions of barrels, it's not worth the cost of drilling.

You might think that those billions of barrels is an outstanding number (it is), but more outstanding is the fact that the would uses 33 billion barrels a year.

But we're not finding nearly that much each year.

If there is abiotic oil, it better show up soon and in massive quantities, or we're in a lot of trouble.

 

[joewp]

Another questions to ask yourself. How is so many old "tapped out" oil wells being refilled?

Here's a question to ask yourself. Where the hell are these "so many" wells? I don't know about any.

Once in a while, the source rock will partially refill a well when the pressure is relieved by extraction. But that's not a surprise to the geologists who study the formation.

But please tell me, what wells are being refilled? I'd like a list.

 

[Politico]

Not in my lifetime. That's all that counts.

 

[joewp]

Refilling of oil wells that were once thought to be "tapped out".

Abiotic Oil a Theory Worth Exploring - On Energy (usnews.com)

How can this be if it takes millions of years to make oil?

That'a a stupid, error filled article. "some say almost inexplicably" - Those "some" are not petroleum geologists. Here's what petroleum geologists have to say:
Reservoir Fluids and Their Migration into the South Eugene Island Block 330 Reservoirs, Offshore Louisiana

The systematically varying extent of brine sodium depletion in two reservoirs defines south to north flow in those sands. These sands were filled from a fault that bounds the reservoirs on the south. Oil compositional parameters also show north-south variation across these reservoirs. The SEI330 oils and gases each had different sources. In contrast to published Jurassic sources for oil, carbon isotope data indicate that SEI330 hydrocarbon gases probably sourced from early Tertiary or Cretaceous sediments, after oil had migrated through them

So Eugene Island refilling isn't some big mystery. It's quite consistent with normal, mainstream petroleum geology.

 

[Old Rocks]

Great point!
We destroy more land (and farmland) by putting up windmills and solar panels vs drilling for oil and digging for coal.

Not to mention the wastefulness of requiring us to use corn in our gas.

Pure bullshit. The wheat farmers along the Columbia River grow wheat right to the bases of the wind mills. And each mill pays them about $5000 a year. Most solar installations are on roofs or in deserts.

And they do little digging for coal, they remove mountain tops, dump them into the valleys and poison whole watershed.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFVdp1KJiqM]jean ritchie sings blackwaters - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Mr. H.]

Agriculture is the true raper of environment and economy alike. Yet that industry is overlooked, and continually given a pass.

We pay record prices for groceries, while the ag industry exports tens of millions of metric tons of grains each year.

40% of corn acres are devoted to ethanol... so much ethanol that 20% of inventory is exported.

Hydrocarbon industries are of little environmental concern compared to agriculture. Yet farmers are overlooked, and continually given a free pass.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Curious....how many people think oil to be a non-renewable resource and that it is made from plants and animals?

What if it is not and we have a LOT more then they are telling us? What if we can never run out because the earths creates more then what we can use?

How would that change your thinking about oil as a energy source?

Sustainable oil?

I'm familiar with this theory that petroleum is the by product of living organisms that thrive deep down in the earth.

The problem I have with it is that no such organisms have ever been found.

Not that I am defending what sounds like a crackpot theory to me, but a few years ago no one had discovered any life that could live in a volcanic vent at the bottom of the ocean.

 

[RGR]

Hydrocarbon industries are of little environmental concern compared to agriculture. Yet farmers are overlooked, and continually given a free pass.

Quite true. But if you tell someone they can have no food, but drive their SUV to work, versus eating well, and bicycling, they will always answer that question one way.

 

[LoudMcCloud]

Even the sun is a limited source.

 

[Underhill]

There is oil enough for thousands of years.

The problem is getting it. Most of it is either impossible to get to or too expensive to be worthwhile. But as the price goes up new reserves that were thought too cost intensive will suddenly become viable.

So we will never run out, but the cost will go up until we can no longer afford it.

This is true of the Canadian oil sands reserves. These are not all new finds. They've been producing small amounts of oil since the 60's. But the combination of low natural gas prices and high oil prices make this oil viable. Otherwise we would still be firmly on the tit of the middle east.

So the question isn't, 'how much is there' but 'what are we willing to pay before we give up this addiction to oil'.

My guess is around $6.00 a gallon and the US will start to see a massive shift. Europe is already on that path.

 

[RGR]

Even the sun is a limited source.

Peak Hydrogen!!! OMG!!!!

Love it...sustainability is naught but an illusion of time...

 

[RGR]

So we will never run out, but the cost will go up until we can no longer afford it.

How about this idea? The cost will go up until we no longer WANT to afford it. Certainly when I switched over to primary EV transport the cost of oil dropped off my radar screen pretty hard. The same will happen to business, for the same reasons. To get a competitive advantage, a business will one up their competition by finding a way to do it better/cheaper, and that runs right into the teeth of why they will use less as well, and when they do, the price of their product becomes less tied to the cost of crude, and as it increases, they now have a competitive advantage over their peers who are still tied to it.

So the question isn't, 'how much is there' but 'what are we willing to pay before we give up this addiction to oil'.

My breaking point was about $4/gal. Now I don't even pay much attention to those silly little numbers which seem to hold the attention of so many. Freedom from oil! EV!!

My guess is around $6.00 a gallon and the US will start to see a massive shift. Europe is already on that path.

Me too. Now I've got tons more discretionary income to spend on iphones for the kids, a new driveway pavement job, all sorts of goodies! RGR...driving economic activity through the use of LESS oil...pioneering for the masses!!!