CDZ Could using Islam as a political philosophy make trumps ban constitutional?

[JakeStarkey]

i would be very, very surprised to find a law in islam that does not have a parallel in judaism.

Totems are big to the religions of Father Abraham: fish and cross, holy rock, burning bush and serpent, so forth and on.

 

[TNHarley]

his hypothetical ban

Sigh- specifically what ban are you speaking of? I like specifics rather than vagaries when dealing with Constitutional issues.

Stopping muslim immigration. What other ban for islam did he mention?

Okay- now I know for certain what you are talking about- Trump's call to ban immigration of people based upon their religion- Islam.

What does the Constitution say about religion?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

So the Constitution is clear that Congress cannot pass a law against Muslims within the United States based upon their religion- and the Koran is the basis of their religion as much as the Bible is the basis of Christianity

However would that apply to immigrants and visitors? I don't know for certain.

But- pretending calling Islam something other than a religion when it is a religion is not going to survive any Constitutional challenges.

It is KNOWN to everyone that Islam is also a political system/philosophy.

according to you

and muslims

 

[TNHarley]

his hypothetical ban

Sigh- specifically what ban are you speaking of? I like specifics rather than vagaries when dealing with Constitutional issues.

Stopping muslim immigration. What other ban for islam did he mention?

Okay- now I know for certain what you are talking about- Trump's call to ban immigration of people based upon their religion- Islam.

What does the Constitution say about religion?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

So the Constitution is clear that Congress cannot pass a law against Muslims within the United States based upon their religion- and the Koran is the basis of their religion as much as the Bible is the basis of Christianity

However would that apply to immigrants and visitors? I don't know for certain.

But- pretending calling Islam something other than a religion when it is a religion is not going to survive any Constitutional challenges.

It is KNOWN to everyone that Islam is also a political system/philosophy.

It is KNOWN to everyone that Islam is a religion.

And what is expressly protected in the U.S. Constitution?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

The topic at hand is handling islam as a political system. NOT a religion.

 

[TNHarley]

I am not discussing how people interpreted it, silly.
I am asking if the old t is a political system like Islam is.

Sure it is.

Look at the 10 Commandments.

Hell there are Christians to this day that insist that our legal and political system should be based upon the 10 Commandments.

A
I am not talking about "insisting"
The ten commandments is a political system? Really?

not just the ten commandments. there are lots of biblical laws and traditions

Is it a political system, though? Just because some dude says not to kill doesn't make it a political system.
I would hope you would try to explain how..
Islam is an actual political system. From justice, social stances, hygiene, the Salat, etc

Are you saying that Puritan England under Cromwell was not a religious dictatorship? Or Puritan New England that hanged Quakers and witches? Or Mormons that ruled Utah? The Puritans executed a boy for buggering a sheep using the OT as the law to follow.

No. I am saying The OT isn't a political system. If it is, I am asking you to explain how.

 

[ogibillm]

Sure it is.

Look at the 10 Commandments.

Hell there are Christians to this day that insist that our legal and political system should be based upon the 10 Commandments.

A
I am not talking about "insisting"
The ten commandments is a political system? Really?

not just the ten commandments. there are lots of biblical laws and traditions

Is it a political system, though? Just because some dude says not to kill doesn't make it a political system.
I would hope you would try to explain how..
Islam is an actual political system. From justice, social stances, hygiene, the Salat, etc

Are you saying that Puritan England under Cromwell was not a religious dictatorship? Or Puritan New England that hanged Quakers and witches? Or Mormons that ruled Utah? The Puritans executed a boy for buggering a sheep using the OT as the law to follow.

No. I am saying The OT isn't a political system. If it is, I am asking you to explain how.

It is a political system in exactly the same way as islam

 

[TNHarley]

A
I am not talking about "insisting"
The ten commandments is a political system? Really?

not just the ten commandments. there are lots of biblical laws and traditions

Is it a political system, though? Just because some dude says not to kill doesn't make it a political system.
I would hope you would try to explain how..
Islam is an actual political system. From justice, social stances, hygiene, the Salat, etc

Are you saying that Puritan England under Cromwell was not a religious dictatorship? Or Puritan New England that hanged Quakers and witches? Or Mormons that ruled Utah? The Puritans executed a boy for buggering a sheep using the OT as the law to follow.

No. I am saying The OT isn't a political system. If it is, I am asking you to explain how.

It is a political system in exactly the same way as islam

SHOW ME

 

[Pogo]

Islam is a political philosophy, legal system, hygiene system etc

No it isn't -- it's a religion, which like any religion deals with moral principles.
If you intentionally interpret that broadly enough to consider it a "political" system, then you have opened Pandora's Box and invited any and every other religion to be subject to the same broad standard -- which means Christians and Jews, among others.

And even if you did, political philosophies aren't something that is bannable under the Constitution anyway.

 

[Pogo]

I was thinking the OT in particular.

Yeah, kill your children if they sass you, you know.

Is the old testament a "system"?

Certainly, you try being a hippie rocker in Jerusalem of the 2d century.

I am not discussing how people interpreted it, silly.
I am asking if the old t is a political system like Islam is.

Sure it is.

Look at the 10 Commandments.

Hell there are Christians to this day that insist that our legal and political system should be based upon the 10 Commandments.

I am not talking about "insisting"
The ten commandments is a political system? Really?

If we say the Quran is, then yes, it has to be. For that matter, so would be the Bhagavad Gita, the Torah and the Tao Te Ching. That's why it's such a big "if".

 

[TNHarley]

Islam is a political philosophy, legal system, hygiene system etc

No it isn't -- it's a religion, which like any religion deals with moral principles.
If you intentionally interpret that broadly enough to consider it a "political" system, then you have opened Pandora's Box and invited any and every other religion to be subject to the same broad standard -- which means Christians and Jews, among others.

And even if you did, political philosophies aren't something that is bannable under the Constitution anyway.

LOL so incorrect. There is no interpretation with Islam, pogo. It is strict and to the point. I posted a link. Maybe you guys should actually read it.
You have to remember, you deny the Islamic hadith, so your credibility with Islam is questionable.
It is bannable when the system has to take over the current system. Which is what Islam wants. AGAIN, read the Salat. It is REQUIRED for an Islamic State.
Please explain how Chrisitna and Jewish teachings set up a political system and not some nut jobs interpretation.
I explained Acts in page 1..

 

[Pogo]

"Could that be used to make Trumps ban constitutional?"

What ban?

his hypothetical ban

Sigh- specifically what ban are you speaking of? I like specifics rather than vagaries when dealing with Constitutional issues.

Stopping muslim immigration. What other ban for islam did he mention?

Okay- now I know for certain what you are talking about- Trump's call to ban immigration of people based upon their religion- Islam.

What does the Constitution say about religion?

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

So the Constitution is clear that Congress cannot pass a law against Muslims within the United States based upon their religion- and the Koran is the basis of their religion as much as the Bible is the basis of Christianity

However would that apply to immigrants and visitors? I don't know for certain.

But- pretending calling Islam something other than a religion when it is a religion is not going to survive any Constitutional challenges.

It is KNOWN to everyone that Islam is also a political system/philosophy.

Nope. Argumentum ad Populum. It isn't "known" at all -- it's suggested (here).

 

[Pogo]

Please explain how Chrisitna and Jewish teachings set up a political system and not some nut jobs interpretation.

I never suggested they do. I'm noting that **IF** you define one religion that way ....... THEN you have to define them all that way.

And here's where that immediately leads:

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord
(Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

 

[OldLady]

Isn't it about theocracies? Weren't European countries theocracies when the King and the Pope ruled absolutely? That led to the Inquisition, along with a lot of other human rights abuses, which is why the framers of the Constitution made a point that our government would be secular. Some Muslim countries are secular, and some are theocracies, right? I see what TN is asking, but Islam only becomes a political philosophy when a country or group chooses to use it as such.
This might be way over my head, but that's my understanding.

 

[TNHarley]

ummatan Muslimatun

 

[TNHarley]

I find it humorous that the only people that claim Islam isn't a political system is non-muslims
Maybe they should read what you guys read LOL

 

[TNHarley]

Isn't it about theocracies? Weren't European countries theocracies when the King and the Pope ruled absolutely? That led to the Inquisition, along with a lot of other human rights abuses, which is why the framers of the Constitution made a point that our government would be secular. Some Muslim countries are secular, and some are theocracies, right? I see what TN is asking, but Islam only becomes a political philosophy when a country or group chooses to use it as such.
This might be way over my head, but that's my understanding.

believers in the Islamic Ideology, ummatan Muslimatun, they are all believers in one God and are obliged to submit to the Ultimate source of Law given by the Almighty in the Quran.
Their goal is an Islamic state. The religion teaches on how muslims should handle the economy, social issues, property, justice and even hygiene. That's why they cut off womens clitoris'. It is law. It is in the hadith.

 

[ogibillm]

not just the ten commandments. there are lots of biblical laws and traditions

Is it a political system, though? Just because some dude says not to kill doesn't make it a political system.
I would hope you would try to explain how..
Islam is an actual political system. From justice, social stances, hygiene, the Salat, etc

Are you saying that Puritan England under Cromwell was not a religious dictatorship? Or Puritan New England that hanged Quakers and witches? Or Mormons that ruled Utah? The Puritans executed a boy for buggering a sheep using the OT as the law to follow.

No. I am saying The OT isn't a political system. If it is, I am asking you to explain how.

It is a political system in exactly the same way as islam

SHOW ME

why? you haven't shown that islam is a political system. tell me how islam is, and i'll tell you how judaism is.

 

[TNHarley]

Isn't it about theocracies? Weren't European countries theocracies when the King and the Pope ruled absolutely? That led to the Inquisition, along with a lot of other human rights abuses, which is why the framers of the Constitution made a point that our government would be secular. Some Muslim countries are secular, and some are theocracies, right? I see what TN is asking, but Islam only becomes a political philosophy when a country or group chooses to use it as such.
This might be way over my head, but that's my understanding.

the link I posted back explains a lot.

 

[Pogo]

Yup, you have a point. And if Christianity or Judaism were to live by the Book, those systems would be antithetical to our Constitution.

So, no, I don't think we should do that.

Would it be the same,though?
In the bible, does it tell you to do things, politically? Like, in Acts, it spoke of things that had happened. Some people interpret it that way(it tells you how to run society), but the Quran is pretty strait forward.

What I remember of Acts is a recounting of events, not a prescription of precepts. But that's a cherrypick.

This too is a recounting of an event, not an order to do so:

Achan ... took of the accursed thing. ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones. ... So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Joshua 7:1-26​

But these are prescriptions --- see the word "shall":

For touching Mount Sinai
Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death. Exodus 19:13

For cursing or blaspheming
And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16

For adultery (including urban rape victims who fail to scream loud enough)
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24

For animals (like an ox that gores a human)
If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned. Exodus 21:28

For a woman who is not a virgin on her wedding night
If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21

For worshiping other gods
If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5
If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers ... thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 13:5-10

For disobeying parents
If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

For witches and wizards
A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Leviticus 20:27

For giving your children to Molech
Whosoever ... giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. Leviticus 20:2

For breaking the Sabbath
They found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. ... And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones.... And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. Numbers 15:32-56

For cursing the king
Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And then carry him out, and stone him, that he may die. 1 Kings 21:10
(collected here)

​

Needles to say, a person actually carrying out these acts would quickly be arrested and punished, and rightly so. But they do exist in the Book, and the book is holy to Christians and Jews. And it's right there in the same book with "Thou shalt not murder".

So the question is -- do you ban an actual action committed contrary to civil society ---- or do you ban the concept of the order, simply because somebody once wrote it down, even it it's ignored?

 

[ogibillm]

Isn't it about theocracies? Weren't European countries theocracies when the King and the Pope ruled absolutely? That led to the Inquisition, along with a lot of other human rights abuses, which is why the framers of the Constitution made a point that our government would be secular. Some Muslim countries are secular, and some are theocracies, right? I see what TN is asking, but Islam only becomes a political philosophy when a country or group chooses to use it as such.
This might be way over my head, but that's my understanding.

believers in the Islamic Ideology, ummatan Muslimatun, they are all believers in one God and are obliged to submit to the Ultimate source of Law given by the Almighty in the Quran.

acts 5:29

Their goal is an Islamic state.

according to whom?

The religion teaches on how muslims should handle the economy, social issues, property, justice and even hygiene.

so does judaism and christianity

That's why they cut off womens clitoris'. It is law. It is in the hadith.

i'll have to give that some thought the next time i attend a bris.

and just as an fyi - female circumcision is not required of muslims and isn't mentioned in the koran. it's an ethnic and cultural thing.

 

[TNHarley]

Is it a political system, though? Just because some dude says not to kill doesn't make it a political system.
I would hope you would try to explain how..
Islam is an actual political system. From justice, social stances, hygiene, the Salat, etc

Are you saying that Puritan England under Cromwell was not a religious dictatorship? Or Puritan New England that hanged Quakers and witches? Or Mormons that ruled Utah? The Puritans executed a boy for buggering a sheep using the OT as the law to follow.

No. I am saying The OT isn't a political system. If it is, I am asking you to explain how.

It is a political system in exactly the same way as islam

SHOW ME

why? you haven't shown that islam is a political system. tell me how islam is, and i'll tell you how judaism is.

Political System
This principle of the unity of Allah totally negates the concept of the legal and political independence of human beings, individually or collectively. No individual, family, class or race can set themselves above Allah. Allah alone is the Ruler and His commandments are the Law.
Read the Salat
Read the Hadith
Read the Quran