CDZ Could using Islam as a political philosophy make trumps ban constitutional?

[JakeStarkey]

You could ban anyone who won't forsake shari'a as a legal system.

How does that work?

 

[ogibillm]

​

Isn't it about theocracies? Weren't European countries theocracies when the King and the Pope ruled absolutely? That led to the Inquisition, along with a lot of other human rights abuses, which is why the framers of the Constitution made a point that our government would be secular. Some Muslim countries are secular, and some are theocracies, right? I see what TN is asking, but Islam only becomes a political philosophy when a country or group chooses to use it as such.
This might be way over my head, but that's my understanding.

believers in the Islamic Ideology, ummatan Muslimatun, they are all believers in one God and are obliged to submit to the Ultimate source of Law given by the Almighty in the Quran.

acts 5:29

Their goal is an Islamic state.

according to whom?

The religion teaches on how muslims should handle the economy, social issues, property, justice and even hygiene.

so does judaism and christianity

That's why they cut off womens clitoris'. It is law. It is in the hadith.

i'll have to give that some thought the next time i attend a bris.

and just as an fyi - female circumcision is not required of muslims and isn't mentioned in the koran. it's an ethnic and cultural thing.

Female circumcision is in the Hadith. Deny what you want.
"Islam provides details for every facet of a person’s life, while this is not found in any other religion" (vol. 4, p. 285). ----Mufti Muhammad Aashiq Illahi Muhajir Madani
n the Hadith Mohammed urges Muslims to practice Jihad. Mohammed once was asked: what is the best deed for the Muslim next to believing in Allah and His Apostle? His answer was: “To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause “ (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25 )
Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).
Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”

and you really think that we can't find the exact same sort of passages in the bible?

islam does have rules for various aspects of life. so does judaism and christianity. how can you deny that?

You asked me who said islams goal was an Islamic state. I showed you that. You think islamic domination is in the bible? LOL
Every aspect of life lol. Will you show me where they force control fo the economy and property?
I am really asking. I don't know everything..

Lev. 25:23
Lev. 25:34
Lev. 25:29
Lev. 25:14
Lev. 25:37
Deut. 24:6

i can keep going if you want

 

[Syriusly]

However, you could ban anyone who won't forsake shari'a as a legal system.

How does that work?

Absolutely- you could of course ban any person who refuses to recognize that the Constitution is the Supreme Law in the United States.

Might have some problems with members of many faiths regarding that....including some GOP candidates.

 

[320 Years of History]

I'm not an attorney, so my question is what would one have to show to demonstrate that the ban does not violate the letter and spirit of the Constitution? My gut says that it may well be constitutional already, but I'd have to do some reading to confirm or refute that supposition. I guess over the next few days I'll read more about the "no religious test" clause.

FWIW, I will being my reading here:

• http://harvardlawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/pdfs/no_religious_test_clause.pdf .
• http://scholarship.law.nd.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1066&context=law_faculty_scholarship

I have no idea what I'll find in either document, but they're where I'll start.

 

[Syriusly]

The right question is "Have you read the Constitution, the 1st Amendment, and any commentaries that apply to your concern about religion in America?"

What Harley doesn't want to address- because he just wants to argue about whether or not Islam is also a political system- is that Islam is a religion.

Does he want to argue that it is okay to ignore the Constitution if he says a religion is also a political system?

Who knows.

 

[ogibillm]

why? you haven't shown that islam is a political system. tell me how islam is, and i'll tell you how judaism is.

Political System
This principle of the unity of Allah totally negates the concept of the legal and political independence of human beings, individually or collectively. No individual, family, class or race can set themselves above Allah. Allah alone is the Ruler and His commandments are the Law.
Read the Salat
Read the Hadith
Read the Quran

I really want you to explain how that's not exactly the same belief that other monotheists hold.

They have sections of their faith specifically for political reasons. That is why it is a political system.

again, so does judaism.

Then SHOW ME how it is a political system

i've given you exactly as much proof as you've given.

 

[TNHarley]

​

believers in the Islamic Ideology, ummatan Muslimatun, they are all believers in one God and are obliged to submit to the Ultimate source of Law given by the Almighty in the Quran.

acts 5:29

Their goal is an Islamic state.

according to whom?

The religion teaches on how muslims should handle the economy, social issues, property, justice and even hygiene.

so does judaism and christianity

That's why they cut off womens clitoris'. It is law. It is in the hadith.

i'll have to give that some thought the next time i attend a bris.

and just as an fyi - female circumcision is not required of muslims and isn't mentioned in the koran. it's an ethnic and cultural thing.

Female circumcision is in the Hadith. Deny what you want.
"Islam provides details for every facet of a person’s life, while this is not found in any other religion" (vol. 4, p. 285). ----Mufti Muhammad Aashiq Illahi Muhajir Madani
n the Hadith Mohammed urges Muslims to practice Jihad. Mohammed once was asked: what is the best deed for the Muslim next to believing in Allah and His Apostle? His answer was: “To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause “ (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25 )
Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).
Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”

and you really think that we can't find the exact same sort of passages in the bible?

islam does have rules for various aspects of life. so does judaism and christianity. how can you deny that?

You asked me who said islams goal was an Islamic state. I showed you that. You think islamic domination is in the bible? LOL
Every aspect of life lol. Will you show me where they force control fo the economy and property?
I am really asking. I don't know everything..

Lev. 25:23
Lev. 25:34
Lev. 25:29
Lev. 25:14
Lev. 25:37
Deut. 24:6

i can keep going if you want

I cant really argue with any of them. Well, I could on a couple but I dont feel like it. lol
Ok, so my way might set a precedent to ban Jews by someone. Laws set precedents all the time, correct?
So back to the actual topic, We could ban Islam under the presumption that it IS a political system?

 

[jillian]

Islam is a political philosophy, legal system, hygiene system etc
Could that be used to make Trumps ban constitutional? I know people argue the first and it limits the government. Which, I agree with(thanks Jarhead). So what about this?

no.

could using Christianity as a political philosophy enable us to shut down churches?

exactly

 

[ogibillm]

​

acts 5:29
according to whom? so does judaism and christianity i'll have to give that some thought the next time i attend a bris.

and just as an fyi - female circumcision is not required of muslims and isn't mentioned in the koran. it's an ethnic and cultural thing.

Female circumcision is in the Hadith. Deny what you want.
"Islam provides details for every facet of a person’s life, while this is not found in any other religion" (vol. 4, p. 285). ----Mufti Muhammad Aashiq Illahi Muhajir Madani
n the Hadith Mohammed urges Muslims to practice Jihad. Mohammed once was asked: what is the best deed for the Muslim next to believing in Allah and His Apostle? His answer was: “To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause “ (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25 )
Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).
Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”

and you really think that we can't find the exact same sort of passages in the bible?

islam does have rules for various aspects of life. so does judaism and christianity. how can you deny that?

You asked me who said islams goal was an Islamic state. I showed you that. You think islamic domination is in the bible? LOL
Every aspect of life lol. Will you show me where they force control fo the economy and property?
I am really asking. I don't know everything..

Lev. 25:23
Lev. 25:34
Lev. 25:29
Lev. 25:14
Lev. 25:37
Deut. 24:6

i can keep going if you want

I cant really argue with any of them. Well, I could on a couple but I dont feel like it. lol
Ok, so my way might set a precedent to ban Jews by someone. Laws set precedents all the time, correct?
So back to the actual topic, We could ban Islam under the presumption that it IS a political system?

no, it's still a religion.

 

[Pogo]

​

Isn't it about theocracies? Weren't European countries theocracies when the King and the Pope ruled absolutely? That led to the Inquisition, along with a lot of other human rights abuses, which is why the framers of the Constitution made a point that our government would be secular. Some Muslim countries are secular, and some are theocracies, right? I see what TN is asking, but Islam only becomes a political philosophy when a country or group chooses to use it as such.
This might be way over my head, but that's my understanding.

believers in the Islamic Ideology, ummatan Muslimatun, they are all believers in one God and are obliged to submit to the Ultimate source of Law given by the Almighty in the Quran.

acts 5:29

Their goal is an Islamic state.

according to whom?

The religion teaches on how muslims should handle the economy, social issues, property, justice and even hygiene.

so does judaism and christianity

That's why they cut off womens clitoris'. It is law. It is in the hadith.

i'll have to give that some thought the next time i attend a bris.

and just as an fyi - female circumcision is not required of muslims and isn't mentioned in the koran. it's an ethnic and cultural thing.

Female circumcision is in the Hadith. Deny what you want.
"Islam provides details for every facet of a person’s life, while this is not found in any other religion" (vol. 4, p. 285). ----Mufti Muhammad Aashiq Illahi Muhajir Madani
: “To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause “ (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25 )
Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).
Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”

Don't know where you're pulling all this from (no links) but ---- circumcision involves the genitals, not the fingers.

An action being "in the Hadith", wherever it is, means nothing. Except that its meaning would have been already understood at the time. And it would have been understood because it already existed.

Same with stoning, which we also did recently. Way older than Islam.

 

[TNHarley]

The right question is "Have you read the Constitution, the 1st Amendment, and any commentaries that apply to your concern about religion in America?"

What Harley doesn't want to address- because he just wants to argue about whether or not Islam is also a political system- is that Islam is a religion.

Does he want to argue that it is okay to ignore the Constitution if he says a religion is also a political system?

Who knows.

Islam is a religion. I am talking about using it as a political system to get banned. You can present things in different manners.
I have proven that Islams goal is an Islamic state. Which is a complete economic/social system. Which is bannable as per the constitution. You can skirt around the OP if you wish. I guess.

 

[TNHarley]

Islam is a political philosophy, legal system, hygiene system etc
Could that be used to make Trumps ban constitutional? I know people argue the first and it limits the government. Which, I agree with(thanks Jarhead). So what about this?

no.

could using Christianity as a political philosophy enable us to shut down churches?

exactly

How is Christianity a political system, Jillian?

 

[Syriusly]

The right question is "Have you read the Constitution, the 1st Amendment, and any commentaries that apply to your concern about religion in America?"

What Harley doesn't want to address- because he just wants to argue about whether or not Islam is also a political system- is that Islam is a religion.

Does he want to argue that it is okay to ignore the Constitution if he says a religion is also a political system?

Who knows.

Islam is a religion. I am talking about using it as a political system to get banned. You can present things in different manners.
I have proven that Islams goal is an Islamic state. Which is a complete economic/social system. Which is bannable as per the constitution. You can skirt around the OP if you wish. I guess.

Tell me exactly how you ban Islam as a political system- while not also unconstitutionally banning Islam- the religion.

 

[TNHarley]

Political System
This principle of the unity of Allah totally negates the concept of the legal and political independence of human beings, individually or collectively. No individual, family, class or race can set themselves above Allah. Allah alone is the Ruler and His commandments are the Law.
Read the Salat
Read the Hadith
Read the Quran

I really want you to explain how that's not exactly the same belief that other monotheists hold.

They have sections of their faith specifically for political reasons. That is why it is a political system.

again, so does judaism.

Then SHOW ME how it is a political system

i've given you exactly as much proof as you've given.

I told you I backed off of the OT.

 

[TNHarley]

The right question is "Have you read the Constitution, the 1st Amendment, and any commentaries that apply to your concern about religion in America?"

What Harley doesn't want to address- because he just wants to argue about whether or not Islam is also a political system- is that Islam is a religion.

Does he want to argue that it is okay to ignore the Constitution if he says a religion is also a political system?

Who knows.

Islam is a religion. I am talking about using it as a political system to get banned. You can present things in different manners.
I have proven that Islams goal is an Islamic state. Which is a complete economic/social system. Which is bannable as per the constitution. You can skirt around the OP if you wish. I guess.

Tell me exactly how you ban Islam as a political system- while not also unconstitutionally banning Islam- the religion.

It isn't two separate things. Islam is a religion and a political system.
See, I am giving the premise to constitutionally ban islam. Stop skirting around the OP!

 

[Pogo]

I have proven that Islams goal is an Islamic state.

You've said that at least twice now. Could you point out where it actually got posted?

 

[jillian]

Islam is a political philosophy, legal system, hygiene system etc
Could that be used to make Trumps ban constitutional? I know people argue the first and it limits the government. Which, I agree with(thanks Jarhead). So what about this?

no.

could using Christianity as a political philosophy enable us to shut down churches?

exactly

How is Christianity a political system, Jillian?

I don't know... why don't you ask hobby lobby or kim davis.

 

[Pogo]

I really want you to explain how that's not exactly the same belief that other monotheists hold.

They have sections of their faith specifically for political reasons. That is why it is a political system.

again, so does judaism.

Then SHOW ME how it is a political system

i've given you exactly as much proof as you've given.

I told you I backed off of the OT.

In other words you're cherrypicking?

 

[TNHarley]

​

Isn't it about theocracies? Weren't European countries theocracies when the King and the Pope ruled absolutely? That led to the Inquisition, along with a lot of other human rights abuses, which is why the framers of the Constitution made a point that our government would be secular. Some Muslim countries are secular, and some are theocracies, right? I see what TN is asking, but Islam only becomes a political philosophy when a country or group chooses to use it as such.
This might be way over my head, but that's my understanding.

believers in the Islamic Ideology, ummatan Muslimatun, they are all believers in one God and are obliged to submit to the Ultimate source of Law given by the Almighty in the Quran.

acts 5:29

Their goal is an Islamic state.

according to whom?

The religion teaches on how muslims should handle the economy, social issues, property, justice and even hygiene.

so does judaism and christianity

That's why they cut off womens clitoris'. It is law. It is in the hadith.

i'll have to give that some thought the next time i attend a bris.

and just as an fyi - female circumcision is not required of muslims and isn't mentioned in the koran. it's an ethnic and cultural thing.

Female circumcision is in the Hadith. Deny what you want.
"Islam provides details for every facet of a person’s life, while this is not found in any other religion" (vol. 4, p. 285). ----Mufti Muhammad Aashiq Illahi Muhajir Madani
: “To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause “ (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25 )
Mohammed said, “I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped but Allah” (Al Bukhari vol. 4:196).
“Whoever seeks other than Islam as his religion, it will not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he will be with the losers” “Slay the idolators [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the last Day…. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah! (Sura 9:5,29,41).
“To participate in Jihad in Allah's cause” (Al Bukhari vol. 1:25)
Sura 8:12 “Remember your Lord inspired the angels with the message: “I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them.”
“Take not the Jews and Christians for friends ... slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. ...Fight against those who ... believe not in Allah nor the Last Day” (Sura 5:51; 9:5,29,41).
Sura 4:95 “Allah has granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home.”

Don't know where you're pulling all this from (no links) but ---- circumcision involves the genitals, not the fingers.

An action being "in the Hadith", wherever it is, means nothing. Except that its meaning would have been already understood at the time. And it would have been understood because it already existed.

Same with stoning, which we also did recently. Way older than Islam.

I don't need links. I provided the location. Google it.
It is in the hadith which is a basic Islamic belief.
Circumcision is a basic Islamic belief. It doesn't matter if it was around before. They put it int heir belief system. Period.

 

[TNHarley]

Islam is a political philosophy, legal system, hygiene system etc
Could that be used to make Trumps ban constitutional? I know people argue the first and it limits the government. Which, I agree with(thanks Jarhead). So what about this?

no.

could using Christianity as a political philosophy enable us to shut down churches?

exactly

How is Christianity a political system, Jillian?

I don't know... why don't you ask hobby lobby or kim davis.

If you don't know, then why say it?
Don't knee-jerk. THINK