Corporation vs Government: Who Do You Trust?

[NYcarbineer]

Maybe the most children (as in out of all the children in the country) part isn't accurate, but knowing quite a few people with family run farms I can tell that of the farms that do exist, if they have children, they are working on the farm

So do you support this Rabbi notion that there's nothing wrong with child labor? Would you like America to return to days of 9 year olds working in factories and mines?

I guess the whole concept of child labor being bad is a concept I can't wrap my head around. First of all child labor is pretty vague. Is there honestly anyone here who didn't do some type of work for a few bucks when they were kids? What are we considering a child? I'm pretty sure you can get a job at McDonalds when you'r 16. Is that 'child labor' and thus should be banned as well?

There are only a couple of scenarios where I can come up with child labor being morally wrong. 1) In a case where it is slavery and the child simply doesn't have a choice and a corporation is gathering children in the street, holding them hostage, and making them work for them. That scenrio doesn't seem very realstic. 2) A parent is requiring their child to work which is depriving the child of an education. That's a more likely scenario, especially further back in history. But it begs the question, why does the law target the corporation as the party engaging in illegal activity? Why does it not target the parents?

Let me clarify. I'm referring to the child labor we currently outlaw. I'm not referring to high school kids getting work permits, or farm kids helping on the farm, or your mom requiring you to do a set of chores to get your allowance.

Better?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Apparently in Rabbi's mythical world of 1900, all those children in America's urban slums who were working in factories and sweatshops were only doing so to get out of farmwork.

lol

Leaving aside your inability to articulate any argument whatsoever against child labor, what do you suppose their alternatives actually were? Hanging around malls?

Because there once was poverty in this country (or anywhere - to this day as well) so severe that families had to put everyone to work, no matter how young, in order to survive is not exactly an inspiring argument for child labor.

I'm waiting for you to tell me what's wrong with child prostitution.

 

[The Rabbi]

Apparently in Rabbi's mythical world of 1900, all those children in America's urban slums who were working in factories and sweatshops were only doing so to get out of farmwork.

lol

Leaving aside your inability to articulate any argument whatsoever against child labor, what do you suppose their alternatives actually were? Hanging around malls?

Because there once was poverty in this country (or anywhere - to this day as well) so severe that families had to put everyone to work, no matter how young, in order to survive is not exactly an inspiring argument for child labor.

I'm waiting for you to tell me what's wrong with child prostitution.

So you're saying you would rather have seen families starve to death rather than make it?

 

[NYcarbineer]

I never said any of that. That was my first comment on the child labor aspect of the discussion. I am fairly certain it doesn't need any clarification.

As for you I am still waiting for you to tell me how corporations compensating people above what is required by law is just an opinion.

Then you are suggesting it, your question is not relevant other than in part government makes corporations more responsible to its workers and customers and society, and most of your responses will descend into babbletalk.

No. Your argument was that corportation will treat people as poorly as possible.

The FACT is as poorly as possible would be all businesses paying minumum wage and providing the minimum in benefits.

The FACT is plenty of businesses compensate employees well above and beyond what the law requires them to.

That is the EVIDENCE which renders your opinion invalid.

They will treat people as poorly as they can afford to as long as there is a net benefit. That they might pay more than minimum wage only means there's a net benefit to paying more.

 

[NYcarbineer]

Leaving aside your inability to articulate any argument whatsoever against child labor, what do you suppose their alternatives actually were? Hanging around malls?

Because there once was poverty in this country (or anywhere - to this day as well) so severe that families had to put everyone to work, no matter how young, in order to survive is not exactly an inspiring argument for child labor.

I'm waiting for you to tell me what's wrong with child prostitution.

So you're saying you would rather have seen families starve to death rather than make it?

Do you have evidence of families starving to death after child labor was outlawed?

 

[The Rabbi]

Because there once was poverty in this country (or anywhere - to this day as well) so severe that families had to put everyone to work, no matter how young, in order to survive is not exactly an inspiring argument for child labor.

I'm waiting for you to tell me what's wrong with child prostitution.

So you're saying you would rather have seen families starve to death rather than make it?

Do you have evidence of families starving to death after child labor was outlawed?

No. That isn't the point.
You said they would have. I ask whether you were OK with them starving to death because that's what would have happened if there had been labor laws in place.

 

[∑₭o Đ∆Żə]

All fascist revolutions begin with the alliance of revolutionary groups collaborating with corporationists.

I am beginning to hear rhetoric on the right as loony today as it was in pre-Nazi Germany..

Hitler ushered in something called "National Socialism", though interestingly he let industry remain in private hands. Next?

 

[JakeStarkey]

All fascist revolutions begin with the alliance of revolutionary groups collaborating with corporationists.

I am beginning to hear rhetoric on the right as loony today as it was in pre-Nazi Germany..

Hitler ushered in something called "National Socialism", though interestingly he let industry remain in private hands. Next?

"
Yep, to point out you don't know or won't share what you do know: Hitler destroyed the leftists under Ernest Rohm in "The Night of the Long Knives."

∑₭o Đ∆Żə, if you won't post the entire story on an issue, then be assured that I will.

 

[midcan5]

"The 20th century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy." Alex Carey

Corporations exist to make money - profit - and operate in all manner of ways. Having made a wonderful life in the corporate world, I can't complain, but I can also see the changes, especially since Reagan which compromise honor and fairness for greed. Check out Jensen's work sometimes.

Derrick Jensen

"Readers of Jensen’s earlier work will recognize his deft and startling interweaving of the deeply personal, the political, the historical, and the philosophical, as he attempts to understand the atrocities that characterize so much of our culture, from the 8,000 dead at Bhopal to the more than twenty million people enslaved today (more than came over on the dreaded Middle Passage), to the destruction of the natural world. The book makes clear that it is only through understanding these atrocities, and by feeling the sorrow and despair caused by them, then moving through that despair, that we will be able to make significant movement toward halting them."

 

[snjmom]

argument against child labor

Children are more powerless than adults, making them the preferred laborer, as they cannot withstand the force of an adult.

 

[Urkie]

All communist revolutions began with conspiracies -- people in postion in places of power at the right times. Are you saying that it couldn't happen here?

Revolutions of that sort happen when a country is going through intense struggles and an extremist group emerges promising they will make things better. Would you call FDR or Obama extremists? Well, maybe you would but they're not.

Now this tea party group is the most extremist group that's emerged in this country probably ever. They are so far right I don't think I can see them. I shudder just thinking about what might happen if they somehow get power.

 

[∑₭o Đ∆Żə]

All communist revolutions began with conspiracies -- people in postion in places of power at the right times. Are you saying that it couldn't happen here?

Revolutions of that sort happen when a country is going through intense struggles and an extremist group emerges promising they will make things better. Would you call FDR or Obama extremists? Well, maybe you would but they're not.

Now this tea party group is the most extremist group that's emerged in this country probably ever. They are so far right I don't think I can see them. I shudder to think what might happen if they somehow get power.

1) Didn't work out so well though, did it?

2) Why would you consider a move towards backing the founding principles of our country and of our constitution to be so frightening and extreme -- you DO believe in the United States Constitution and our form of government . . . right?

 

[Urkie]

1) Didn't work out so well though, did it?

2) Why would you consider a move towards backing the founding principles of our country and of our constitution to be so frightening and extreme -- you DO believe in the United States Constitution and our form of government . . . right?

What didn't work out so well? FDR got us out of the depression.

A move towards the principles of our founding fathers? I think you're the one confused about the Constitution.

 

[Bern80]

So do you support this Rabbi notion that there's nothing wrong with child labor? Would you like America to return to days of 9 year olds working in factories and mines?

I guess the whole concept of child labor being bad is a concept I can't wrap my head around. First of all child labor is pretty vague. Is there honestly anyone here who didn't do some type of work for a few bucks when they were kids? What are we considering a child? I'm pretty sure you can get a job at McDonalds when you'r 16. Is that 'child labor' and thus should be banned as well?

There are only a couple of scenarios where I can come up with child labor being morally wrong. 1) In a case where it is slavery and the child simply doesn't have a choice and a corporation is gathering children in the street, holding them hostage, and making them work for them. That scenrio doesn't seem very realstic. 2) A parent is requiring their child to work which is depriving the child of an education. That's a more likely scenario, especially further back in history. But it begs the question, why does the law target the corporation as the party engaging in illegal activity? Why does it not target the parents?

Let me clarify. I'm referring to the child labor we currently outlaw. I'm not referring to high school kids getting work permits, or farm kids helping on the farm, or your mom requiring you to do a set of chores to get your allowance.

Better?

Not really. If that's the labor you deem okay for children to do. What other labor is there? What is it you realistically think is going to happen if not for 'child labor' laws?

 

[Bern80]

The evidence, bern80, is that you keep trying to reframe what I write, which is dishonorable and will always be a fail.

Weasel you really are in no position to be making references to integrity. You are the weasel for a reason you know.

I said government needs to regulate businesses because terrible inequities happen when they don't. Like human outlaws, there are business outlaws, and they have to be controlled.

Except for the FACT that these inequites aren't occurring on any real scale. For those that are what is the problem with the court system and/or the court of public opinion taking care of those few bad eggs?

 

[∑₭o Đ∆Żə]

All fascist revolutions begin with the alliance of revolutionary groups collaborating with corporationists.

I am beginning to hear rhetoric on the right as loony today as it was in pre-Nazi Germany..

Hitler ushered in something called "National Socialism", though interestingly he let industry remain in private hands. Next?

"
Yep, to point out you don't know or won't share what you do know: Hitler destroyed the leftists under Ernest Rohm in "The Night of the Long Knives."

∑₭o Đ∆Żə, if you won't post the entire story on an issue, then be assured that I will.

The Sturmabteilung, or the Brown Shirts, were not the political left in Hitler's regime (except maybe for the rampant homosexuality in their ranks). To paint them as such, or to assert that National Socialism died after they were disposed of is really ignorant and dumb.

Not sure this is worth it Jake, Urkle, and NYcarb.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are deceitful and have no integrity, bern80. Truly, you are a person of vile attitudes and positions. Enron? The meltdown of 2008? The banks and savings and loan scandals since Reagan came into office and the mortgage meltdown beginning two and a half years ago?

I would call you a retard, but associating you with people who have real challenges would be truly unfair to them, because you have made a moral choice that takes you to the dark side of human justification.

As laws are necessary to ensure humans conduct themselves at a minimal standard, so do laws hold corporations to minimal standards.

Any who fight against these truths are enemies of human morality and ethics. For shame on you, bern80, for shame on you.

 

[JakeStarkey]

∑₭o Đ∆Żə, either you are ignorant on the issue, mentally feeble, or simply motivated by deliberate malignancy. Rohm was a socialist and wanted a socialist state. Hitler sided with the corporationists and destroyed the socialists in his party. Those are the facts. Either learn the history or give up your agenda of falsifying history. That will not fly here.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Very good that Bern80 and ∑₭o Đ∆Żə know they have fail here and have moved on.

∑₭o Đ∆Żə must have done some reading about the socialist wing of "reformers" led by Rohm and others, and went, "ah, shit" and snuck away.

 

[∑₭o Đ∆Żə]

Okay, I think get what you're doing now. You started off by saying:

"All fascist revolutions begin with the alliance of revolutionary groups collaborating with corporationists.

I am beginning to hear rhetoric on the right as loony today as it was in pre-Nazi Germany."

I originally didn't catch your use of the word "corporationists" as opposed to 'corporations' ("tee-hee" very clever, boy). Fascism encorporates the philosophy of corporatism, which is a system of economic, political, and social organisation that views a community as a body based upon organic social solidarity and functional distinction and roles amongst individuals -- which of course has nothing to do with corporatism as it's used today by socialists to mean what they once referred to as "the industrialists". Nice way to waste people's time weasle-boy, what to you do for fun?