Civility impossible?

[Mac1958]

The only remedy is for enough smart people to choose to not accommodate the trolls when they come in as a group to derail a thread.

I mentioned in another thread that I often feel like Charlie Brown in this place. I'll get into a conversation with one of the trolls thinking that, maybe this time, they'll just communicate with honesty, civility and maturity, and before long -- sure enough -- they're back to playing their games. Just like Lucy pulling the football away at the last moment.

I've just got two trolls on ignore, and it's only because I don't want to be tempted to trust them any more. It's more about my own weakness than their behavior.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Great analogy Mac

 

[Foxfyre]

A USMB friend just suggested that the CDZ isn't more popular because most folks posting at USMB LIKE the personal insults, food fights, and general hostility. It is a form of recreation to them. Invariably the trolls will interpret or characterize a call for civility as no different that discouraging differences of opinion.

I'm now thinking about that. Is it true? Are there too few people who actually embrace civility and intelligent discussion of issues for a CDZ to become as popular as the politics forum where personal insults are allowed?

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Well as they informed me early on in this thread, the CDZ is a relatively new group. So maybe time will tell.

 

[Foxfyre]

Well as they informed me early on in this thread, the CDZ is a relatively new group. So maybe time will tell.

Yes, it has been going for a little over six months here, but compared to the Politics forum, there are a small fraction of posters or lookers active here at any given time. I will admit I generally don't start my threads here because some really good people managed to get themselves banned from here within the first weeks this forum was open and I want those people to participate in my threads. But lately it has been almost impossible to keep any kind of interesting topic on the rails in the Politics forum. And the food fights are really REALLY boring to me.

Ah well. It is a brand new year, yes? A brand new chance to do it better, yes? Maybe if I live long enough--time is running out--I will be able to experience some intelligent discussion with some really good civil give and take that isn't destroyed by the trolls. Hope springs eternal.

 

[Flopper]

A USMB friend just suggested that the CDZ isn't more popular because most folks posting at USMB LIKE the personal insults, food fights, and general hostility. It is a form of recreation to them. Invariably the trolls will interpret or characterize a call for civility as no different that discouraging differences of opinion.

I'm now thinking about that. Is it true? Are there too few people who actually embrace civility and intelligent discussion of issues for a CDZ to become as popular as the politics forum where personal insults are allowed?

The primary interest of most people here is to express themselves. There're not here to have a civil discussion. What passes for debate is nothing more than an argument. In a good debate, the participates should be able to debate both sides of a controversial issue, if they can't they don't understand the issue. They should be able to cite sources that at least attempt to be unbiased. And above all they should be civil to their opponents. I have seen little of this on this board.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

A USMB friend just suggested that the CDZ isn't more popular because most folks posting at USMB LIKE the personal insults, food fights, and general hostility. It is a form of recreation to them. Invariably the trolls will interpret or characterize a call for civility as no different that discouraging differences of opinion.

I'm now thinking about that. Is it true? Are there too few people who actually embrace civility and intelligent discussion of issues for a CDZ to become as popular as the politics forum where personal insults are allowed?

In general, civility is a wonderful thing, I have also found that, in general, if you treat people with respect, you get it. I remember getting a job once working in a shop with a guy that was famous for having a foul mouth. The strange thing is that after a couple of days of working with me he cleaned up his act, at least around me. I never said a word to him about what he said, I just didn't feed into it. If people want civility, they need to do the same thing, give it, and then let others see them as an example.

The problem I have is when people step in and demand that I adhere to an artifical standard. If someone tells me they never respond to anyone who uses a certain tone, I will go out of my way to use that tone just to make a point. One poster in particular was famous for insulting people, then putting them on ignore when they returned the favor.

Anyone that really wants a civil tone should go out of their way to insure that they set an example, and then adhere to it by not demanding that others toe the line.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

A USMB friend just suggested that the CDZ isn't more popular because most folks posting at USMB LIKE the personal insults, food fights, and general hostility. It is a form of recreation to them. Invariably the trolls will interpret or characterize a call for civility as no different that discouraging differences of opinion.

I'm now thinking about that. Is it true? Are there too few people who actually embrace civility and intelligent discussion of issues for a CDZ to become as popular as the politics forum where personal insults are allowed?

The primary interest of most people here is to express themselves. There're not here to have a civil discussion. What passes for debate is nothing more than an argument. In a good debate, the participates should be able to debate both sides of a controversial issue, if they can't they don't understand the issue. They should be able to cite sources that at least attempt to be unbiased. And above all they should be civil to their opponents. I have seen little of this on this board.

That is actually a pretty simplistic outlook. Arguing the other side of the issue should be easy for anyone, the real challenge is caring enough about the other side to argue it passionately and effectively. Frankly, I doubt that most people even understand enough about the issues to care about the other side, present company not excepted.

 

[Foxfyre]

A USMB friend just suggested that the CDZ isn't more popular because most folks posting at USMB LIKE the personal insults, food fights, and general hostility. It is a form of recreation to them. Invariably the trolls will interpret or characterize a call for civility as no different that discouraging differences of opinion.

I'm now thinking about that. Is it true? Are there too few people who actually embrace civility and intelligent discussion of issues for a CDZ to become as popular as the politics forum where personal insults are allowed?

The primary interest of most people here is to express themselves. There're not here to have a civil discussion. What passes for debate is nothing more than an argument. In a good debate, the participates should be able to debate both sides of a controversial issue, if they can't they don't understand the issue. They should be able to cite sources that at least attempt to be unbiased. And above all they should be civil to their opponents. I have seen little of this on this board.

Part of the problem is that too many will not allow others to 'argue' a point of view they don't share. If you don't agree with them they interpret that as a personal put down, a violation of them as persons, a direct insult. Mind you they don't feel they need to agree with YOU. They just demand the other person agree with them, and if he/she does not, he/she is characterized with every unflattering adjective in their usually limited vocabularies.

Debate or a comprehensive discussion of a topic is almost always going to be an argument with each side making a case for why his/her belief/conviction/point of view is the more accurate one. Grown ups can do that without getting angry at the other person. We just need more grown ups.

My purpose in engaging in that kind of activity is usually not to change the mind of the other person but sometimes it is to contribute to the common store of information, sometimes it is in hope that consciousness raising will happen, and more often than not it is simply to test my own beliefs and convictions to see if they will hold up under scrutiny and challenge. I figure any opinion worth having should be able to stand up against a challenge from a worthy opponnent.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

We all have limited time. We all have little invisible hourglasses floating over our heads. But as long as I live just long enough to see a confirmation of aliens, or aliens arrive I'm cool.

 

[Statistikhengst]

We all have limited time. We all have little invisible hourglasses floating over our heads. But as long as I live just long enough to see a confirmation of aliens, or aliens arrive I'm cool.

Gets my vote for one of the coolest statements of the last 12 months!!

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Thanks. Referencing "Eon" earlier, the future humans being proud of their ancestry had little holograms of national flags displayed waving over their shoulders. Probably how the hourglass idea popped into my head. And of course that movie, though I didn't see it, knew of it, where you could buy a watch that has a countdown timer with how much longer you had to live. Wasn't in my conscious awareness, but probably contributed.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

A real problem is that people just don't care anymore.

I used to. Until I started reading this board. Not anymore.

 

[Flopper]

A USMB friend just suggested that the CDZ isn't more popular because most folks posting at USMB LIKE the personal insults, food fights, and general hostility. It is a form of recreation to them. Invariably the trolls will interpret or characterize a call for civility as no different that discouraging differences of opinion.

I'm now thinking about that. Is it true? Are there too few people who actually embrace civility and intelligent discussion of issues for a CDZ to become as popular as the politics forum where personal insults are allowed?

The primary interest of most people here is to express themselves. There're not here to have a civil discussion. What passes for debate is nothing more than an argument. In a good debate, the participates should be able to debate both sides of a controversial issue, if they can't they don't understand the issue. They should be able to cite sources that at least attempt to be unbiased. And above all they should be civil to their opponents. I have seen little of this on this board.

Part of the problem is that too many will not allow others to 'argue' a point of view they don't share. If you don't agree with them they interpret that as a personal put down, a violation of them as persons, a direct insult. Mind you they don't feel they need to agree with YOU. They just demand the other person agree with them, and if he/she does not, he/she is characterized with every unflattering adjective in their usually limited vocabularies.

Debate or a comprehensive discussion of a topic is almost always going to be an argument with each side making a case for why his/her belief/conviction/point of view is the more accurate one. Grown ups can do that without getting angry at the other person. We just need more grown ups.

My purpose in engaging in that kind of activity is usually not to change the mind of the other person but sometimes it is to contribute to the common store of information, sometimes it is in hope that consciousness raising will happen, and more often than not it is simply to test my own beliefs and convictions to see if they will hold up under scrutiny and challenge. I figure any opinion worth having should be able to stand up against a challenge from a worthy opponnent.

I agree with you. However, I do think information properly presented does change peoples minds and if it doesn't, it often gives them a better understanding of the other side of an issue. Insults effect people in one of two ways. They either feel compelled to return the insult often upping the servery of the attack or just ignoring the person. Either way it ends useful discussion.

When people start calling me names and my blood starts rising, I get out the discussion.

 

[Foxfyre]

The primary interest of most people here is to express themselves. There're not here to have a civil discussion. What passes for debate is nothing more than an argument. In a good debate, the participates should be able to debate both sides of a controversial issue, if they can't they don't understand the issue. They should be able to cite sources that at least attempt to be unbiased. And above all they should be civil to their opponents. I have seen little of this on this board.

Part of the problem is that too many will not allow others to 'argue' a point of view they don't share. If you don't agree with them they interpret that as a personal put down, a violation of them as persons, a direct insult. Mind you they don't feel they need to agree with YOU. They just demand the other person agree with them, and if he/she does not, he/she is characterized with every unflattering adjective in their usually limited vocabularies.

Debate or a comprehensive discussion of a topic is almost always going to be an argument with each side making a case for why his/her belief/conviction/point of view is the more accurate one. Grown ups can do that without getting angry at the other person. We just need more grown ups.

My purpose in engaging in that kind of activity is usually not to change the mind of the other person but sometimes it is to contribute to the common store of information, sometimes it is in hope that consciousness raising will happen, and more often than not it is simply to test my own beliefs and convictions to see if they will hold up under scrutiny and challenge. I figure any opinion worth having should be able to stand up against a challenge from a worthy opponnent.

I agree with you. However, I do think information properly presented does change peoples minds and if it doesn't, it often gives them a better understanding of the other side of an issue. Insults effect people in one of two ways. They either feel compelled to return the insult often upping the servery of the attack or just ignoring the person. Either way it ends useful discussion.

When people start calling me names and my blood starts rising, I get out the discussion.

Well I have certainly been taught a thing or two by some folks here. Certainly I have been given a different way of thinking about something which prompts me to do more research. And as I said, I hope some of our discussions do inspire at least some consciousness raising that helps folks understand something they didn't understand before. But I guess I've become too jaded to give other people much credit for having an open mind about much of anything and I will accept that as a character flaw in me. And as a New Year Resolution I'm going to try to be more open minded about that.

I do agree that when a member shifts from the topic and starts focusing on me, insulting me, I know I've won the debate and he or she has nothing. And the food fights are so boring I almost never stick around.

 

[Flopper]

Part of the problem is that too many will not allow others to 'argue' a point of view they don't share. If you don't agree with them they interpret that as a personal put down, a violation of them as persons, a direct insult. Mind you they don't feel they need to agree with YOU. They just demand the other person agree with them, and if he/she does not, he/she is characterized with every unflattering adjective in their usually limited vocabularies.

Debate or a comprehensive discussion of a topic is almost always going to be an argument with each side making a case for why his/her belief/conviction/point of view is the more accurate one. Grown ups can do that without getting angry at the other person. We just need more grown ups.

My purpose in engaging in that kind of activity is usually not to change the mind of the other person but sometimes it is to contribute to the common store of information, sometimes it is in hope that consciousness raising will happen, and more often than not it is simply to test my own beliefs and convictions to see if they will hold up under scrutiny and challenge. I figure any opinion worth having should be able to stand up against a challenge from a worthy opponnent.

I agree with you. However, I do think information properly presented does change peoples minds and if it doesn't, it often gives them a better understanding of the other side of an issue. Insults effect people in one of two ways. They either feel compelled to return the insult often upping the servery of the attack or just ignoring the person. Either way it ends useful discussion.

When people start calling me names and my blood starts rising, I get out the discussion.

Well I have certainly been taught a thing or two by some folks here. Certainly I have been given a different way of thinking about something which prompts me to do more research. And as I said, I hope some of our discussions do inspire at least some consciousness raising that helps folks understand something they didn't understand before. But I guess I've become too jaded to give other people much credit for having an open mind about much of anything and I will accept that as a character flaw in me. And as a New Year Resolution I'm going to try to be more open minded about that.

I do agree that when a member shifts from the topic and starts focusing on me, insulting me, I know I've won the debate and he or she has nothing. And the food fights are so boring I almost never stick around.

When I was in high school debate many years ago, the first personal attack against the opposition got you disqualified.

 

[Mac1958]

.

We taught our kids from a very young age that, when some other kid thinks that they have to attack and insult you, the problem is with them, not with you. It took a while, but they ended up getting it. Now they know to stay calm and reasonable, and that it usually makes the other person look like a fool.

They'll learn as adults that this won't change.

.

 

[Foxfyre]

I agree with you. However, I do think information properly presented does change peoples minds and if it doesn't, it often gives them a better understanding of the other side of an issue. Insults effect people in one of two ways. They either feel compelled to return the insult often upping the servery of the attack or just ignoring the person. Either way it ends useful discussion.

When people start calling me names and my blood starts rising, I get out the discussion.

Well I have certainly been taught a thing or two by some folks here. Certainly I have been given a different way of thinking about something which prompts me to do more research. And as I said, I hope some of our discussions do inspire at least some consciousness raising that helps folks understand something they didn't understand before. But I guess I've become too jaded to give other people much credit for having an open mind about much of anything and I will accept that as a character flaw in me. And as a New Year Resolution I'm going to try to be more open minded about that.

I do agree that when a member shifts from the topic and starts focusing on me, insulting me, I know I've won the debate and he or she has nothing. And the food fights are so boring I almost never stick around.

When I was in high school debate many years ago, the first personal attack against the opposition got you disqualified.

They still do. And any form of ad hominem or other logical fallacy will lose the debater serious points and, if a really flagrant violation, can cost him/her the match. I was on debate teams in highschool and college and have since been privileged to be a volunteer coach and sometimes judge of formal debate competitions. It does teach one how to focus on a topic and analyze all sides of it--be able to argue all sides of it. It is good training to teach critical thinking and disciplined logic. And it is excellent training to teach people how to argue a point of view without being personally insulting.

Rigid rules for formal debate, however, would not be that useful in a mediation or other effort to arrive at a compromise of opposing demands or point of view. But the principle of civility and challenging the opinion and not the person are applicable in all cases.

 

[Listening]

Well as they informed me early on in this thread, the CDZ is a relatively new group. So maybe time will tell.

Yes, it has been going for a little over six months here, but compared to the Politics forum, there are a small fraction of posters or lookers active here at any given time. I will admit I generally don't start my threads here because some really good people managed to get themselves banned from here within the first weeks this forum was open and I want those people to participate in my threads. But lately it has been almost impossible to keep any kind of interesting topic on the rails in the Politics forum. And the food fights are really REALLY boring to me.

Ah well. It is a brand new year, yes? A brand new chance to do it better, yes? Maybe if I live long enough--time is running out--I will be able to experience some intelligent discussion with some really good civil give and take that isn't destroyed by the trolls. Hope springs eternal.

I just learned of the Bull Ring.

I'd like to see that one get some more action.

In that one, you get judged by three people you pick.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Well as they informed me early on in this thread, the CDZ is a relatively new group. So maybe time will tell.

Yes, it has been going for a little over six months here, but compared to the Politics forum, there are a small fraction of posters or lookers active here at any given time. I will admit I generally don't start my threads here because some really good people managed to get themselves banned from here within the first weeks this forum was open and I want those people to participate in my threads. But lately it has been almost impossible to keep any kind of interesting topic on the rails in the Politics forum. And the food fights are really REALLY boring to me.

Ah well. It is a brand new year, yes? A brand new chance to do it better, yes? Maybe if I live long enough--time is running out--I will be able to experience some intelligent discussion with some really good civil give and take that isn't destroyed by the trolls. Hope springs eternal.

I just learned of the Bull Ring.

I'd like to see that one get some more action.

In that one, you get judged by three people you pick.

I do find the idea to be stimulating...