Centrists

[Caligirl]

But I agree with you about centrists. Or independents. Or 3rd party people. They don't have the balls to pick a side.

instead they have the intelligence to understand that unfettered capitalism is very risky, and regulatory agencies need their limits.

they understand that there is value to environmental sustainability, but there is a necessary practicality to practices that damage the environment.

they understand that faith is central to most people's lives, and science is indispensible to our society.

they understand that democracy needs to be a chorus of many voices, and that there will never be unison, but that on occasion when coalition can be forged, we are the strongest nation on the planet.

they also happen to believe that the US stands for basic human ideals and can lead through example, and that this is the best country in the world.

etc etc etc.

 

[Caligirl]

That's what the GOP did and that is what the Dems should do.

because the dems want to achieve what the GOP has achieved lately????

Why are you advocating that the dems take a page from the GOP book? This makes no sense whatsoever in this context. The GOP has suffered the worst two election cycles in decades, historically bad, and there is reason to think they will lose more senate seats in 2010 (look at how the numbers stack up for seats up for grabs.)

WHy on earth should the dems emulate the GOP of the late 90's/early 00's?

 

[BlackAsCoal]

I will agree that the Republicans will never embrace him and will do everything in their power to destroy him, but I don't know that he is making a mistake. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

He already got a preacher to drop his ban of gays in his mega church. I don't know if its that guy doing the invocation, but it was one of those evangelicals. Anyways, he's already made progress there.

And fyi, it is going to take faith to fix this economy. If not, no one will invest or buy anything if there is no faith. Thats why it is a good thing that Obama has over a 70% approval rating right now. You 30% should be ashamed of yourselves. You are the pussies. Are you suggesting we will never get out of this mess? Because the GOP certainly won't get us out. So if Obama can't, no one can. If Obama won't, no one will. Do you get that?

And it isn't going to be his "failing". He won't let them play him.

And just like you thought he couldn't win and he proved you wrong, he'll prove you wrong here too.

Will he do away with the Federal Reserve and bring manufacuturing jobs back to America? I don't know that he can do either. I hear Kennedy was considering looking into the Federal Reserve before he got popped. Maybe that's a road Obama isn't willing to go down.

But if he doesn't fix labor/jobs/wages/unemployment, we are screwed my brother. So you better hope you are wrong.

If you think kissing republican ass is good policy that explains why you're a democrat.

George Bush had a 80% approval rating at one time .. and those who stood against him were called "pussies" just like you did. Unintelligent to say the least.

Post where I said "we will never get out of this." Do you really need to make shit up so you can have a point?

Obama is bought and owned by Wall Street and only an idiot wouldn't know that by now. They are the ones who flooded his campaign with money, not "small donors." That was the mindfuck for idiots.

Obama is a centrist, thus only a fool would expect him to take any courageous stand .. like getting rid of the Federal Reserve. Get real. Now he's claimng that changing MJ laws would be "too tough." What a fraud.

Tell you what .. you put all your hopes and dreams in the fraud that is Obama if you choose. I have no problem with that. His economic advisers are the same ones who got us into this mess .. but you go right ahead and put your "faith" in them.

By the way, you'd better hope that automakers kiss his ass reguarly and don't disagree with him .. given that he has said he will "bankrupt companies that disagree with him."

There's your savior.

 

[sealybobo]

because the dems want to achieve what the GOP has achieved lately????

Why are you advocating that the dems take a page from the GOP book? This makes no sense whatsoever in this context. The GOP has suffered the worst two election cycles in decades, historically bad, and there is reason to think they will lose more senate seats in 2010 (look at how the numbers stack up for seats up for grabs.)

WHy on earth should the dems emulate the GOP of the late 90's/early 00's?

Their policies are clearly wrong, no doubt. But the way they got their policies passed? That is something the Dems need to take a look at.

For example, on economic issues. Tell the GOP that you want to tax corporations and give all the money to the poor. Now that is starting from the far left. Of course they'll say we are but then it will make it very difficult for them to present their far right ideas. So if we start far left, they have to move to the center. And then we can call their centrist ideas right wing.

That's what they did the last 8 years. Anything we proposed was a radical left wing idea. Even though we were only proposing common sense. Just look at how the called Obama "the most liberal guy in the senate". I kept telling them that was a lie. And now we see they are calling him a centrist.

The GOP may have screwed up the economy enough that they lost power, but boy was it worth it. Their base made a fortune over these last 8 years. Haloburton, all the banks, all the ceo's, blackwater, every other Pentagon Defense contractor. Record profits from 2004-2006. Where did that money go? All the CEO's and BOD's have it.

On social issues, we'll use gay marriage as an example. We need to stay firm on allowing gays to be able to MARRY each other. If we stay firm on that, then maybe the GOP will give in to the idea of civil unions. If we start with the idea of civil unions, the only thing we can do is move further to the right.

So start at the left. That's all I'm saying.

 

[sealybobo]

George Bush had a 80% approval rating at one time .. and those who stood against him were called "pussies" just like you did. Unintelligent to say the least.

Post where I said "we will never get out of this." Do you really need to make shit up so you can have a point?

Obama is bought and owned by Wall Street and only an idiot wouldn't know that by now. They are the ones who flooded his campaign with money, not "small donors." That was the mindfuck for idiots.

Obama is a centrist, thus only a fool would expect him to take any courageous stand .. like getting rid of the Federal Reserve. Get real. Now he's claimng that changing MJ laws would be "too tough." What a pussy.

Tell you what .. you put all your hopes and dreams in the fraud that is Obama if you choose. I have no problem with that.

By the way, you'd better hope that automakers kiss his ass reguarly and don't disagree with him .. given that he has said he will "bankrupt companies that disagree with him."

There's your savior.

Yes, GW did have an 80% approval rating after 9-11, and that's how he got his radical agendas passed. Good point.

The way you talk, we are doomed. You said, "post where I said". How are we going to get out of this mess if Obama sucks and is no better than Bush? Tell me?

No, Obama got more donations from people like me than any other candidate in history. I never gave to Clinton or Gore, but I gave to Obama. Grass roots baby. Sorry your pathetic Green party can't do the same. Maybe if they were good.

Don't worry. Obama will "bankrupt" companies alright. Ones that have all their employees overseas and have their HQ in the Cayman islands in order to avoid paying US taxes.

PS. I still think the auto companies want to go out of business/bankrupt. That way they can break the unions. And if they get billions in a bailout, thats just bonus. So I hope the dems keep a close eye on them once they give them the loan.

 

[Caligirl]

For example, on economic issues. Tell the GOP that you want to tax corporations and give all the money to the poor. Now that is starting from the far left. Of course they'll say we are but then it will make it very difficult for them to present their far right ideas. So if we start far left, they have to move to the center. And then we can call their centrist ideas right wing.

This isn't the way to change. It didn't work for the GOP, the electorate woke up and saw the corruption playing these games and booted 'em out and the dems 'll reap that too if they try that tactic.

The way to get change is bottom up. Gay rights are expanding not because of policy but because gays are coming out, more young people are growing up with the knowledge that their friends are gay, that it doesn't rub off, or threaten them, etc, has nothing to do with Washington and everything to do with the populace.

The dems don't have to tackle these issues, not in any sort of bludgeon-ham-fisted way. If the dems stay in control of the houses, the grassroots do a lot of the heavy lifting on moving the country forward.

Take green energy as another example. In this case the war and etc did the work for the greener cars. The population started buying greener cars, market principles have driven the shift not policy.

If dems take a ham-handed approach they'll be booted out. Change comes from the bottom. You name any issue you like, I bet I can make a convincing argument that change towards a more progressive society on that issue is not a result of policy but of the population at large.

So start at the left. That's all I'm saying.

Really really disagree. Stay in power and work across party lines. Don't pick fights you don't need.

The whole argument is moot anyway, with unemployment and consumer numbers going down and down the path to a successful election 2010 is really clear for *either* side.

 

[BlackAsCoal]

Yes, GW did have an 80% approval rating after 9-11, and that's how he got his radical agendas passed. Good point.

The way you talk, we are doomed. You said, "post where I said". How are we going to get out of this mess if Obama sucks and is no better than Bush? Tell me?

No, Obama got more donations from people like me than any other candidate in history. I never gave to Clinton or Gore, but I gave to Obama. Grass roots baby. Sorry your pathetic Green party can't do the same. Maybe if they were good.

Don't worry. Obama will "bankrupt" companies alright. Ones that have all their employees overseas and have their HQ in the Cayman islands in order to avoid paying US taxes.

PS. I still think the auto companies want to go out of business/bankrupt. That way they can break the unions. And if they get billions in a bailout, thats just bonus. So I hope the dems keep a close eye on them once they give them the loan.

We are doomed by our own ignorance my brother. How do we save ourselves .. stop being ignorant.

Stop making excuses for politicians who are on "your side" and hold them accountable.

We could grow a brain and recognize the forces that are destroying us is not some arab guy thousands of miles from our shores, but the bastards wearing Brooks Brothers suits on Wall Street.

Obama promised transparency, but now he wants to circumvent congressional oversight with the additional 350 billion dollars .. when he was wrong to promote giving away the first 350 billion dollars without proper oversight and conditions.

Give away 350 billion to people who are already rich .. but begrudge automakers who have 3 million jobs in the crosshairs. That is a long ass way from intelligent and if the first 350 was working why couldn't the autmakers go to the banks, not Congress. If they fail, guaranteed that you will be affected in Michigan .. and if they wanted to fail as you suggest, all they had to do was do nothing .. but at least they are smart enough to know that nobody is going to buy a car from a company in bakruptcy.

Obama got 26% from small donors .. Bush got 25% from small donors in 2004. The bulk of Obama's money came from large donors and bankers and financial institutions. You voted for him, why don't you already know that? They're also contributing heavily to his inaguration. Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, AIG, UBS, and others.

If you think Obama is some champion of the little people .. I won't call you a fool .. but ... he doesn't give a rats ass about little people or anybody else but Obama. You were just his footstool on his way to glory.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

How dishonest you are being. You claim the right doesn't want to know about gay sex? My ass you don't.

We want nothing to do with your gay ass... PERIOD. You keep your twisted devient sexual cravings to yourself and off the kids and we could not care less.

When I tell you I want to marry a woman, what do you think about? You think about me having kids, a new home, inlaws, a loving companion, etc.

Marriage is for opposite genders sis... We don't care who you marry as long as the person you marry is of the opposite gender of that which you happen to be at the moment.

But what do you think about when anyone brings up gays getting married? You immediately start thinking about butt and oral man on man sex.

Marriage is for opposite genders sis... We don't care who you marry as long as the person you marry is of the opposite gender of that which you happen to be at the moment.

Why do you do that?

We do it to encourage sound nuclear families... It's a cultural standard and one which is not negotiable...

When I think about my parents 30 plus year marriage, I never think about how they do it. Do you? So then why do you have such a raging boner over gay butt sex?

Having been married for nearly 30 years... We've yet to have homosexual sex... But if we did, we wouldn't demand that the culture embrace and normalize our deviancy just to make us feel better about our sick asses.

Know what I think?

to have some clue what you're thinkin,' it would be necessary for you to show some sign of actual thought.

Now friends, did ya see how quickly the leftist lunged to defend her sacred cow? Let a queer step off the leftist cart and see how quickly they get the boot... just like the formerly sacred 'Centrist.'

 

[rayboyusmc]

Marriage is for anyone who fucking wants it Publius. You don't make the rules for other people's lifes. I know you want to, but you don't. And then you piss and moan at the liberals interfering with the government.


I want Obama to cut out the tax cuts for the rich also. He can do this action and still be a centrist in other areas.

That's the point I am making. A centrist or moderate (at least for me) does not necessarily hold such a middle of the road position on every issue.

There are things that are wrong or right in my opinion. I am not a centrist on these issues. There are other issues where the either right or wrong is bullshit and the answer is somewhere in the middle.

However let's take gun control. I am a centrist. I believe we should be allowed to own guns. However, I have no problem with registration and a waiting period. I also don't have a problem with the average citizen not being able to buy an AK47 or a frigging 50 caliber machine gun. I do have a problem with the government saying I can't own a weapon, and I do have a problem with the NRA and their position. They would have you just about issue every baby a gun at birth.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Funny you get pre 9-11 mindset now but when we talk about Clinton taking out bin ladin, you act as if Bin Ladin was enemy number one like he is today.

You talk like Clinton ever tried to 'take out Bin Laden...' We don't count 'cruise-missiling' camps which were 400 miles from Bin Laden as an 'attempt to take him out.'

2 years ago Bush said, "he doesn't spend that much time thinking about Bin ladin". Dude, I bet that makes the victims of 9-11's families really happy.

ROFL... GW isn't hunting Bin Laden down... 'he has people' hunting down Bin Laden... WHO BTW is presently sitting in a cave somewhere white knuckling his bed-roll, just hoping to make it to January 20th, when he can FINALLY breath easy.

So for you to be ok with that but dog clinton for not taking bin ladin out in the 90's makes you a right wing fucktard.

What am I supposed to be OK with? That Clinton undermined US security with innumerable PC policy such as trying terrorists in civilian criminal court, hamstringing the potential defense of the US by forcing those we depend upon to defend the nation to obtain the highest threshold of evidence in order to prosecute them successfully... part and parcel of that was the "WALL" THEY ESTABLISHED to prevent intelligence assets from sharing intelligence with domestic law enforcement... their refusal to investigate Middle eastern males interested in "FLYING-ONLY" lessons... establishing policy which prevented the CIA from using foreign intelligence assets with criminal backgrounds... there's the Clinton administration policy which sought to make security clearances at Nuclear-research labs less inequitable... labs which BTW realized massive security breeches resulting in Chinese communist obtaining the designs of our MIRV (multiple independently targetable reentry vehicle) technology along with designs of our top echelon nuclear warheads...

NO! I was not "OK with that..." not by a long shot.

3000 Americans died on 9-11 and Bush "doesn't think that much" about Bin ladin?

Well Bush did however prosecute a war against invading two nations lead by goverments known to harbor, with long histories of promoting the interests of these terrorists; establishing policy which has resulted in the present situation where NO NATION ON EARTH IS BOASTING A POLICY OF HARBORING TERRORISTS... Since 9-11 President GW Bush has given dozens of press interviews; he has hundreds of thousands of US troops in dozens of nations chasing down and killing Islamic terrorists WHEREVER THE TERRORISTS MAKE THEIR PRESENTS KNOWN... Since that time, OBL has not given a SINGLE interview, has not been SEEN by ANYONE who is willing to admit it and to this day is either dead or HIDING... His organization, the leadership of which at the time of 9-11 is either dead or in US custody minus TWO... and they BOTH know that as long as GW Bush is President... the moment that their location is known, that location will explode moments later.

The only thing GW has dome wrong since 9-11 is his having lent credence to leftists... which resulted in the massive insurgency in Iraq... The same will now happen in Afghanistan and THAT YOU CAN TAKE TO THE BANK.

That alone is worth impeachment.

Well we can't impeach him yet... but he's about to launch the DADT 'queers in the Military' thing, so that bodes well for a GOP congressional majority in 2012, so we'll have to wait for that before impeaching Hussein is possible.

But if he launches hard left... it is almost a certainty; my guess is the the 'challenge' he will face, heralded by Biden, will result in his impeachment. Perhaps he'll turn on Israel, perhaps he'll open the gates at Gitmo, freeing the terrorists housed there, bringing them to the US... Perhaps he'll establish ROE which will result in US troops being slaughtered in Afghanistan... who knows; but what we can be sure of is he will give the benefit of a fictitious doubt to our enemy and that will cost the US BIG... that is an absolute CERTAINTY.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Publius has brainwashed himself to the point that only he knows the truth.

Where, Mr. Homophobbee?

Off the leftist cart, pogue. Read the post, it saves us all time and the site space.

Right, we are all queers because we don't agree with you.

OUTSTANDING! You completely, thoroughly, utterly misrepresented the argument; rating a Zero... Maggy's Drawers.

You are a blithering demagogue who doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

Well for a baseless opinion, I suppose this one stands about as good as any of the rest of your inane drivel.

Again, your warped rambling shows that you know nothing about moderates or centrists. You are incapable of seeing any view but yours.

Moderates ARE CENTRISTS... the terms are synonomous. (Look it up)

I love reading your posts.

Yeah... As a general rule they're outstanding... I enjoy reading them myself. Of course anyone of reasonable intellectual means who reads mine and yours knows that I OWN YOU... but no less so than any other leftist that cares to offer their assinine feelings in my presence.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

By the way, the majority of Americans in any political issue will tend to cluster around the center more than either extreme. It's called the bell shaped curve. Read up on it PUblius.

Well I suppose that will be predicated upon the parameters which define the center... Now as a general rule the 'center' is defined as that 33.3% which rests beween the two outer 33.3% segments of a given line... thus there is no majority to be garnered from that group, beyond the value of that group which adheres to either of the two alternatives.

But I DO adore the ad populum grope you were simply unable to muster the discipline to avoid.

That's about 67 Percent of Americans who will be 2 standard deviations from the center. Only about 5% will be in the extreme right or left.

"2 standard deviations"... ROFL... My MY! Well you've got it all figured out then don'tcha?


So if I understand what you're sayin,' you feel the center is noteworthy because they are 'the majority makers'... and you place a ton of stock in majority opinion; you feel a popular opinion is an intellectually sound, logically valid opinion... I mean after all, who but an imbecile would give a shit about an opinion that did not rest upon an intellectually sound foundation and within a logically valid construct... Right?

So you MUST be privy to some data which correlates the majority making prowess of the vaunted Center, with intellectual sound, logically valid positions... otherwise you're argument is inane pap... absurd drivel; a pointless pontification to nowhere...

Pogue... How SPECIFICALLY are you correlating the sacred middle and their majority making numbers to sound reason and valid logic?

Again... I'm looking FOR SPECIFICS...

(Friends... there will be no specifics forthcoming; I only asked to screw with this idiot, as the ideological middle is incapable of sound, logically valid reasoning... this based upon the certainty that they see the left's position as such 50% of the time... and the left does not have a single position under god's blue sky which is intellectually sound OR logically valid... let alone AND.)

 

[rayboyusmc]

Moderates ARE CENTRISTS... the terms are synonomous. (Look it up)

No shit Pogo. If you could read, you would know I said just that. I think perhaps we enjoy reading your posts for different reasons. You see serious thought, I see rambling right wing bovine drippings.

Ass to owning me, you don't own your self, Pogo. Someday if you grow up, you may realize that: more than likely snot.

I have rarely witnessed such a hate filled person on these posts. No wonder you admit to being kicked off so many other threads.

Never did a maggies drawers, Pogo. Always shot expert on the M-14, 16 45 and 38. Actually shot on the Quantico Rifle Team one year.

 

[PubliusInfinitum]

Moderates ARE CENTRISTS... the terms are synonomous. (Look it up)

No shit Pogo. If you could read, you would know I said just that.

Huh... Didja? Well... Let's go to the videotape

Again, your warped rambling shows that you know nothing about moderates or centrists.

{emphassis added}

Now where I come from 'or' establishes a projected distinction... and a distinction tends towards indicating a DIFFERENCE and where there is a DIFFERENCE, Pogue, that would tend towards indicating your former and erroneous position that a Centrist is not the same as a Moderate...

Feel free to explain that for us...

I think perhaps we enjoy reading your posts for different reasons. You see serious thought, I see rambling right wing bovine drippings.

Of course... you're an imbecile, who is incapable of discerning reasoning... so that serves reason. I'd ask if you understand, but that's reason which necessarily means you're out of the loop... again.

Right, we are all queers because we don't agree with you.

OUTSTANDING! You completely, thoroughly, utterly misrepresented the argument; rating a Zero... Maggy's Drawers.

Never did a maggies drawers

False Pogue... ya just placed one on the record... a complete MISS... which you've established is typical for you.

 

[garyd]

On the left are most though not all Democrats - the people with a cause. In the majority of cases their emotional attachment to that cause is inversely proportional their actual understanding of the issue, which goes a long way in explaining why so many leftists continue to believe horse crap that isn't true now wasn't true a hundred years ago and won't likely be true 100 years into the future.

On the right are most though not all Republicans - the people who understand that we are being slowly strangeled by a government that is the most expensive and the least competent the world has ever seen.

In the middle is the populist muddle. These are the swing voters. these are people who believe so many mutually contradictory things that it is amazing their heads don't explode. Bill O'Reilly is the best known populist out there by far.

 

[Gunny]

Centrism pretend to worship at the altar of the great American middle, but in fact they stick closely to a very particular view of events regardless of what the public says it wants.

That’s why it is so obviously preferable to be part of the movement that doesn’t compromise easily than to depend on the one that has developed a cult of the almighty center.

Even a conservative as ham-handed as former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay seems to understand this.

As he recounted in his 2007 memoirs, Republicans under his leadership learned “to start every policy initiative from as far to the political right as we could.” The effect was to “move the center farther to the right,” drawing the triangulating Clinton along with it.

President-elect Obama can learn something from Mr. DeLay’s confession: Centrism is a chump’s game. Democrats have massive majorities these days not because they waffle hither and yon but because their historic principles have been vindicated by events. This is their moment. Let the other side do the triangulating.

>>Read More

Donkey Drops » Blog Archive » Obama Should Act Like He Won


Obama Should Act Like He Won - WSJ.com

This is a great article on why being a centrists sucks. I used to defend Obama saying, "he's not a liberal, he's a centrists like Clinton", but now I hope he isn't too much of a centrist. Clinton signed NAFTA and deregulated the media. He shouldn't have done those things. He should have ruled from the center left, not the center. And I hope Obama doesn't give in too much. He should remember that we/he won.

Centrists are people who have the ability to take both sides of an issue into account, and not be judgmental about it if it doesn't concern them. It's a concept far and away beyond anything you could possibly grasp.

 

[sealybobo]

Centrists are people who have the ability to take both sides of an issue into account, and not be judgmental about it if it doesn't concern them. It's a concept far and away beyond anything you could possibly grasp.

Yes, I thought that too until I heard a long discussion about it. Now I see things a little differently. I'm open to changing my opinion. Are you? Seems like you are set in stone on everything. And you are always right. Ever change your mind? About what?

Anyways, the article I attached makes some very good points. For one, we don't need to meet the GOP in the middle. We're in power now. The country has spoken. We are a left of center country. So Obama should rule from the left of center.

And did you read Tom Delay's book? He admits this tactic is very successful in getting your way in Washington. If Obama starts at the center, then the GOP will no doubt try to pull him to the right.

And the left made Obama the president, so he should work for them. Just like Bush catered to the rich for their support.

You just don't want the country to move to the left. Sorry, nothing you can do about it.

 

[sealybobo]

.

You are a wacko. It would take all day to explain why everything you said was wrong. I just erased it all because it was all garbage. But no doubt you really believe the lies/untruths you are saying. You are freakin or a or a combination of both.

How do you type with a straight jacket on?

 

[del]

You are a wacko. It would take all day to explain why everything you said was wrong. I just erased it all because it was all garbage. But no doubt you really believe the lies/untruths you are saying. You are freakin or a or a combination of both.

How do you type with a straight jacket on?

are you trying to tell me you don't know how?

 

[editec]

Centrism pretend to worship at the altar of the great American middle, but in fact they stick closely to a very particular view of events regardless of what the public says it wants.

That’s why it is so obviously preferable to be part of the movement that doesn’t compromise easily than to depend on the one that has developed a cult of the almighty center.

Even a conservative as ham-handed as former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay seems to understand this.

As he recounted in his 2007 memoirs, Republicans under his leadership learned “to start every policy initiative from as far to the political right as we could.” The effect was to “move the center farther to the right,” drawing the triangulating Clinton along with it.

President-elect Obama can learn something from Mr. DeLay’s confession: Centrism is a chump’s game. Democrats have massive majorities these days not because they waffle hither and yon but because their historic principles have been vindicated by events. This is their moment. Let the other side do the triangulating.

>>Read More

Donkey Drops » Blog Archive » Obama Should Act Like He Won


Obama Should Act Like He Won - WSJ.com

This is a great article on why being a centrists sucks. I used to defend Obama saying, "he's not a liberal, he's a centrists like Clinton", but now I hope he isn't too much of a centrist. Clinton signed NAFTA and deregulated the media. He shouldn't have done those things. He should have ruled from the center left, not the center. And I hope Obama doesn't give in too much. He should remember that we/he won.

Political posturing by playing a semantics game is the political game we play here in America, I'll readily admit that.

Calling Obama a leftist, for example, is simply absurd.

Damned near as absurd as Bush having called himself a conservative, in fact.

They are BOTH insiders now, far as I can tell.

If this bail out has any value to us at all (and given what it's going to cost I surely hope it does) then the value of it, is to show some of us that the the REAL GAME IN TOWN is not left v right but US v Them.

For those of you keeping score, THEM is winning, FYI