Causes of Suffering

[USViking]

I guess I should start with an apology for my flippant answer. But discussing this topic causes these not yet healed wounds that I have to ooze with such pain, that sometimes that is the only way I can respond.

I'm not sure I know exactly what you are looking for. You want to know why your brother died at such an early age? I don't have an exact answer.

Other than what I stated earlier that here on earth "the sun shines on the evil & the good, the rains on the just & the unjust", Matt. 5:45. And in Ecclesiastes 9:2 says, "that all things come alike to all......"

In Gensis 3:16-18 you can read about the expulsion from the Garden of Eden, that because of sin,that sorrow would be greatly multiplied, the ground cursed with thorns & thistles, we were taken from dust and to dust we shall return.

And tho' I don't understand completely, I cling daily to the promises of seeing my son again. I physically ache not being able to touch his skin or smell his hair.
And tho' I have no intention of having a who's-suffered-more contest with you, if you think you can equate your suffering to that of mine or your parents, you can't even come close.

"For the Lord himself shall decend from heaven....and the dead in Christ shall rise first.....Then we which are live shall be caught up together......so we shall ever be with the Lord.
And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be anymore pain,........".

You may also read in the Gospels of the Crucifixion. Where a Man who was pure & perfect came & shed His innocent blood that these promises can come true.

If you are truly looking for answers Viking, I hope you find them.

I have not claimed to have suffered at all, and there is not
a word in anything I have said here that could cause a
responsible reader to believe I might be trying to have a
suffering “contest”. I know you would not deliberately
misinterpret me, so I will ask you to read more carefully
in the future, and to avoid jumping to conclusions not
justified by what is written

I was four or five when my brother died, and do not remember
him, and do not remember my grief.

I said I have thought of the death of a child in my family longer
than you, and I have. If I felt I had suffered more than you, then
I would have used those words.

My father went to his grave feeling his loss as you feel yours.
Not more so, the same. My mother, who is still alive, shares the
same sorrow.

I am not looking for an answer because I already have it.

No ethical diety would impose one single broken heart
upon a creation He loves.

 

[kurtsprincess]

No ethical diety would impose one single broken heart
upon a creation He loves.

I agree. An ethical diety would not impose a broken heart on any creation it loves. Do you ask this question because you believe that when someone suffers or dies it is a direct commandment (or imposition) from the deity?

Here's what I think. An ethical deity creates a universe where the creations (all of them, not just humans) are allowed free choice and the ability to adapt to their environment (plants, bacteria, viruses), and then the deity stays out of the development process that ensues from the choices made by the creations.

The circumstances of suffering and death are just part of the creation process. Disease and death are part of the original creation and letting disease develop within the environment created was all part of the original creation process. If disease or disaster strikes, then what ethical deity would pick and choose who suffers and who doesn't; who dies and who lives?

The bottom line is that my creator loves me no matter what choices I make. My creator might not approve of my choices and knows that some of the choices I make could cause suffering in my life, or someone else's life, but loves me nonetheless.


Viking...........while I cannot even suppose I could answer your question in a way that is applicable to you and/or your family, I can tell you the answer I got when I asked the same question of my creator regarding my own suffering. Suffering is a component of who I am today. Because of the circumstances that have happened in my life I have evolved into who I am. Even when I am not directly involved or directly affected by the suffering, I am experiencing some type of emotion for those who are suffering, and this too helps me be who I am.

My creator wants me to experience life .......... in any form that comes my way.........some are due to my choices, some are due to choices made by others, but all of it is from choices made.

 

[dilloduck]

I have not claimed to have suffered at all, and there is not
a word in anything I have said here that could cause a
responsible reader to believe I might be trying to have a
suffering “contest”. I do not think you would deliberately
misinterpret me, so I will ask you to read more carefully
in the future, and to avoid jumping to conclusions not
justified by what is written

I was four or five when my brother died, and do not remember
him, and do not remember my grief.

I said I have thought of the death of a child in my family longer
than you, and I have. If I felt I had suffered more than you, then
I would have used those words.

My father went to his grave feeling his loss as you feel yours.
Not more so, the same. My mother, who is still alive, shares the
same sorrow.

I am not looking for an answer because I already have it.

No ethical diety would impose one single broken heart
upon a creation He loves.

Since hearts are broken daily, what conclusion have you come to? Is there no diety at all or is the diety unethical?

 

[USViking]

I agree. An ethical diety would not impose a broken heart on any creation it loves. Do you ask this question because you believe that when someone suffers or dies it is a direct commandment (or imposition) from the deity?

I am not asking a question. I am providing
my answer to a question.

Here's what I think. An ethical deity creates a universe where the creations (all of them, not just humans) are allowed free choice

I am not sure I would attribute free will to the
animal world, but that is irrelevant to the issues
of this thread.

and the ability to adapt to their environment (plants, bacteria, viruses), and then the deity stays out of the development process that ensues from the choices made by the creations.

This does not make sense. We did not “choose”
to evolve with a vulnerability to malignacies,
or disease-carrying microbes.

Our vulnerability is solely the choice of God,
who by “staying out of the development process”
abrogated His responsibilty to His creation.

I take it, by the way, you are not a proponent
of Intelligent Design.

The circumstances of suffering and death are just part of the creation process. Disease and death are part of the original creation and letting disease develop within the environment created was all part of the original creation process.

You are agreeing with me in holding God responsible
for suffering, disease, and death.

If disease or disaster strikes, then what ethical deity would pick and choose who suffers and who doesn't; who dies and who lives?

What ethical diety would allow disease or disaster
to strike at all? You do not think God is unable to
prevent them, do you?

The bottom line is that my creator loves me no matter what choices I make.
My creator might not approve of my choices and knows that some of the choices I make could cause suffering in my life, or someone else's life, but loves me nonetheless.

If He loved us then it would be incumbent on Him
to intervene to prevent any suffering by us, just as
it would be incumbent upon human parents to prevent
any suffering by their children, if it is within their
power to do so.

Viking...........while I cannot even suppose I could answer your question in a way that is applicable to you and/or your family, I can tell you the answer I got when I asked the same question of my creator regarding my own suffering. Suffering is a component of who I am today. Because of the circumstances that have happened in my life I have evolved into who I am. Even when I am not directly involved or directly affected by the suffering, I am experiencing some type of emotion for those who are suffering, and this too helps me be who I am.

My creator wants me to experience life .......... in any form that comes my way.........some are due to my choices, some are due to choices made by others, but all of it is from choices made. (emphasis added)

No, it is not all from choices made. Such diseases as smallpox,
typhoid, typhus, the plague, cholera, flu, etc., etc., etc. are in no
way, shape or form the result of any choices made by human
beings whether you believe in evolution or scriptural creation.
Nor was the malignancy which took my brother’s life.

 

[USViking]

Since hearts are broken daily, what conclusion have you come to? Is there no diety at all or is the diety unethical?

I consider it proven that the diety is unethical,
if it exists.

I do not consider it possible to prove or disprove
its existence.

The evidence for its existence is in my opinion
not sufficient to justify belief in it.

 

[dilloduck]

I consider it proven that the diety is unethical,
if it exists.

I do not consider it possible to prove or disprove
its existence.

The evidence for its existence is in my opinion
not sufficient to justify belief in it.

But do you consider suffering to be enough proof for you to justify you disbelief ?

 

[USViking]

But do you consider suffering to be enough proof for you to justify you disbelief ?

I did not say suffering was proof against
the existence of God.

 

[dilloduck]

I did not say suffering was proof against
the existence of God.

I consider it proven that the diety is unethical,
if it exists

The why do you consider it proven that there is either no diety or it is unethical?

 

[USViking]

I did not say suffering was proof against
the existence of God.

I consider it proven that the diety is unethical,
if it exists.

The why do you consider it proven that there is either no diety or it is unethical?

What I consider proof applies to the nature of God,
not to His existence.

 

[dilloduck]

What I consider proof applies to the nature of God,
not to His existence.

So "proof" shows to you that the nature of God is the God is unethical?

 

[USViking]

So "proof" shows to you that the nature of God is the God is unethical?

Yes.

 

[dilloduck]

Yes.

and the existence of disease and death of innocent children is your proof?

 

[dmp]

Nevermind that none of that came from God...(sigh). The brother's heart is broken, dillo...

 

[dilloduck]

Nevermind that none of that came from God...(sigh). The brother's heart is broken, dillo...

I can see how hurt he is. I guess it's common for people to blame God for bad things. Maybe his talking about it will help. Grieving often takes a long time.

 

[dmp]

I can see how hurt he is. I guess it's common for people to blame God for bad things. Maybe his talking about it will help. Grieving often takes a long time.

Irony. He's turning his back on the One Source for his healing...

 

[USViking]

and the existence of disease and death of innocent children is your proof?

The untimely deaths of by now billions of innocent people
as the result of disease and natural calamity such as flood,
famine, and eathquake is enough evidence for me to feel
that the case against God has been proved.

 

[USViking]

Nevermind that none of that came from God...(sigh). The brother's heart is broken, dillo...

If God is the creator of the universe, then He
created the causes of untimely death, and is
responsible for each death.

I said in an earlier post I did not remember my
own grief at my brother's death because I was
too young, and in fact I have been spared extreme
grief for my entire life.

 

[dmp]

If God is the creator of the universe, then He
created the causes of untimely death, and is
responsible for each death.

that's circular logic. God had to allow for sin/death...'man' chose that over Him. Christ is REAL and he REALLY can heal your hearts, brother.

 

[MissileMan]

I can see how hurt he is. I guess it's common for people to blame God for bad things. Maybe his talking about it will help. Grieving often takes a long time.

I'd say it's more common that people give credit to God for the good things that happen to them. It is logical that the door swings both ways.

 

[USViking]

If God is the creator of the universe, then He
created the causes of untimely death, and is
responsible for each death.

that's circular logic. God had to allow for sin/death...'man' chose that over Him. Christ is REAL and he REALLY can heal your hearts, brother.

I do not agree the argument is circular.

God does not have to do anything.

There is no doubt that many deaths are
not related to sin, my brother's being only
one of billions.