Catholic School Fires Teacher For.....

[JoeB131]

Emily Herx, Teacher Claims She Was Fired From Catholic School For In Vitro Fertilization




Emily Herx, Teacher Claims She Was Fired From Catholic School For In Vitro Fertilization

I understand the Church's reasoning and why they are against IVF. I just don't agree with it. Thoughts?

Are they asking you to agree with it? No.

Her decision. She knew she worked for the Catholic Church. You don't like the Catholic Church's views... fine... don't work for it.

Being that this is a forum for religion, I was more interested in everyone's thoughts on IVF from a religious viewpoint, not so much whether the Catholic Church had a right to fire this woman.

Fair enough.

I think the problem here is that as we understand the mechanics of reproduction, we can control it more, and the church is against that. The Church would rather have the infertile adopt kids who aren't aborted, and I guess morally, I don't have a problem with that.

I think the thing is, whether it be teh Catholic Church being against fertility medicine or the Jehovah's Witnesses being against Blood transfusions, you are going to get bizarre interpretations of scripture because scripture couldn't have anticipated these issues.

My thought. Screw the superstition and the sky pixies. Is IVF immoral on its face? Nope. It allows people who normally couldn't have babies to have them. The church's rather silly position that every zygote is a person is what the problem is here. In fact, 2/3rds of fertilized zygotes don't attach to the uterine wall. We don't have funerals for tampons.

But when you take an inflexible position, you got to follow it through all the way.

 

[catzmeow]

I'm being completely on topic.

The Church fired this woman for something that was really nothing to do with her job because it violated their "teachings".

A lot of religious schools have "morality clauses" in the employment contracts for individuals who work in the classroom. This applies to Catholic schools, but it also applies to schools like Brigham Young University and Liberty University.

I think a strong case could be made for arguing that teachers in those settings are important role models for children, so a teacher getting pregnant out of wedlock has an important religious and social implication for students. Even if that pregnancy was IVF, it still opens up a can of worms for both parents and other school personnel.

Let me spin it like this...teachers play an important role in role-modeling appropriate adult behavior for children. And, often, criminal statutes reflect this. Some statutes impose harsher penalties on people who violate a public trust when commiitting an offense, whether that individual is a cop or a teacher or a government official. I mean, hell...if I found out that one of my kids' teachers was getting high on the weekends, and the kids knew about it, I'd probably want that person fired, and my son goes to a public school. It's hard enough to deliver a coherent anti-drug message to your kid without a teacher undermining it in this culture. Same with sex. I want my kids to make it through high school without impregnating someone or getting pregnant. I hope my teachers want them to do this, as well.

People send their kids to religious schools not only for academic instruction, but also for religious instruction, and for indoctrination in a core set of shared beliefs and values. If a teacher is visibly violating or undermining those values, it undermines the system.

I wouldn't send my kid to a religious school, because we aren't religious. But, people who do are paying for something specific.

I do think that that religious entities should have a right to ensure that their employees, even if they're merely a teacher, are living in a way that is in line with their values.

If you don't want to live by those roles, work for a public school (you'll make more money, by and large).

 

[Intense]

You know there was a back door from the start. She could have gone to Confession after she got pregnant. It is that simple, you know. She'd still have her job and the baby. Don't tell anyone though, it's a secret.

 

[tigerbob]

If a catholic can expand for me as to why they're against in vitro I'd appreciate it.

I'm a former catholic and had never heard of this, not trying to be a smartass or anything I'm just curious.

Catholic Insight : Vatican : The moral status of in vitro fertilization (IVF) Biology and method

Infertile couples sometimes resort to IVF in order to conceive a child. IVF is a laboratory technique by which human embryos are conceived in a petri dish which contains a culture medium. The woman is given hormones which stimulate her ovaries to produce up to 30 or more oocyte (ova). These are retrieved by inserting a needle into the ovaries via the vagina with ultrasound guidance. These oocyte are mixed with sperm. The sperm is obtained by masturbation and is usually donated by the husband. If the husband is infertile however, the sperm may be obtained from another man. If the women is infertile, likewise, the oocyte may be obtained from another woman, whose ovaries have been similarly stimulated. The embryos thus conceived are usually allowed to grow up to the four-to-eight-cell stage over three to four days, at which time some of the embryos are implanted in the woman's uterus.

Embryos are sometimes implanted in the uterus other than that of the wife-a so-called "surrogate mother." Some researchers obtain oocyte from women who donate them for financial compensation in order to conceive embryos purely for research purposes. These women are pre-selected because they are judged to have the genetic qualities most appropriate for the purpose of that specific research.

Because of the availability of new culture media, it has recently become possible to let the embryos grow for up to seven days, by which time, only the most vigorous survive. This reduces the number of embryos implanted and increases the number of successful implantations, while also reducing the number of multiple pregnancies. Note that most embryos (up to 19 out of 20), conceived in IVF clinics eventually die. If they are not implanted, they are either "donated" for research, in which case they are killed, or they are kept in cold storage in very low temperatures after which most are disposed of, or eventually die. Since frequently several embryos are implanted at one time, multiple pregnancies occur. Not infrequently, early in pregnancy, some of these embryos are killed by injection of potassium chloride into the embryo's heart. This procedure is euphemistically called "fetal reduction."

Catholic Church teaching
A human being comes into existence at the moment of fertilization of an oocyte (ovum) by a sperm. This fact has been recognized by the science of Human Embryology since 1883, and is still acknowledged today. The Church teaches that a human being must be respected-as a person-from the very first instant of his existence as a human being, and therefore, from that same moment, his rights as a person must be recognized among which in the first place, is the inviolable right of every innocent human being to life. The Church also teaches that from the moral point of view a truly responsible procreation vis-à-vis the unborn child, must be the fruit of marriage.

Pope Paul VI has taught that there is an "inseparable connection, willed by God, and unable to be broken by man on his own initiative, between the two meanings of the conjugal act: the unitive meaning and the procreative meaning."

IVF violates the rights of the child: it deprives him of his filial relationship with his parental origins and can hinder the maturing of his personality. It objectively deprives conjugal fruitfulness of its unity and integrity, it brings about and manifests a rupture between genetic parenthood, gestational parenthood, and responsibility for upbringing. This threat to the unity and stability of the family is a source of dissension, disorder, and injustice in the whole of social life.

I follow that and more or less respect it, right up until the last paragraph which seems to leap sideways. The assertions in bold seem to bear no relation to what has gone before.

That said, I think that if this lady took a job at a Catholic school, accepted the terms and was aware of the teachings that she can't really be surprised that the Church decided to fire her for her actions.

 

[JoeB131]

I'm being completely on topic.

The Church fired this woman for something that was really nothing to do with her job because it violated their "teachings".

A lot of religious schools have "morality clauses" in the employment contracts for individuals who work in the classroom. This applies to Catholic schools, but it also applies to schools like Brigham Young University and Liberty University.

I think a strong case could be made for arguing that teachers in those settings are important role models for children, so a teacher getting pregnant out of wedlock has an important religious and social implication for students. Even if that pregnancy was IVF, it still opens up a can of worms for both parents and other school personnel.

Let me spin it like this...teachers play an important role in role-modeling appropriate adult behavior for children. And, often, criminal statutes reflect this. Some statutes impose harsher penalties on people who violate a public trust when commiitting an offense, whether that individual is a cop or a teacher or a government official. I mean, hell...if I found out that one of my kids' teachers was getting high on the weekends, and the kids knew about it, I'd probably want that person fired, and my son goes to a public school. It's hard enough to deliver a coherent anti-drug message to your kid without a teacher undermining it in this culture. Same with sex. I want my kids to make it through high school without impregnating someone or getting pregnant. I hope my teachers want them to do this, as well.

People send their kids to religious schools not only for academic instruction, but also for religious instruction, and for indoctrination in a core set of shared beliefs and values. If a teacher is visibly violating or undermining those values, it undermines the system.

I wouldn't send my kid to a religious school, because we aren't religious. But, people who do are paying for something specific.

I do think that that religious entities should have a right to ensure that their employees, even if they're merely a teacher, are living in a way that is in line with their values.

If you don't want to live by those roles, work for a public school (you'll make more money, by and large).

I'm not sure if the woman in question was unmarried. I don't see any reference to her marital status in the story... The issue seems to be entirely the fact she used IVF, not her marital status.

 

[del]

Our morals are ours. We're not asking you to live by them... just don't work for the Church.

Stop trying to force us to live by your morals. Easy.

California Girl doesn't speak for Catholics.

Except when she does.

You either accept the tenets of the Church or you don't. That's what being a Catholic is - we don't pick and choose from a menu of beliefs. Those who work for the Catholic Church - regardless of their particular faith - agree to abide by certain conditions.... don't like the conditions, don't work for the Church. Not rocket science... but clearly above the intellectual pay grade of some.

sandi speaks ex cathedra about the tenants of the church

 

[auditor0007]

Our morals are ours. We're not asking you to live by them... just don't work for the Church.

Stop trying to force us to live by your morals. Easy.

California Girl doesn't speak for Catholics.

Except when she does.

You either accept the tenets of the Church or you don't. That's what being a Catholic is - we don't pick and choose from a menu of beliefs. Those who work for the Catholic Church - regardless of their particular faith - agree to abide by certain conditions.... don't like the conditions, don't work for the Church. Not rocket science... but clearly above the intellectual pay grade of some.

My issue with the Catholic Church is that so many of their tenets are just rules made up by man, not God. For instance, in the earliest days of the Church, priests were permitted to be married and were not required to remain celibate. Then a man decided that they should be celibate. Many of these tenets have changed over time, and I'm sure many of them will change in the future. I can't possibly imagine the Church telling their members to have as many kids as possible if the population of this planet doubles or triples from where it is now. At some point, they will wake up to the reality that people will have to limit how many kids they have. We're not there yet, but anyone can certainly see this happening.

 

[manifold]

How did they find out about it?

 

[manifold]

According to my Catholic tenets, as long as she confesses her sins she is forgiven.

I guess they forgot about that one at this particular parish.

Or did they?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

tenets, not tenants

too complicated for you, sandi?

No, just not paying a huge amount of attention, asshole.

yeah, that's what it was, it certainly couldn't be your ignorance

or could it?



thanks for the rep, sandi

Whining about rep and spelling, the douche here is you.

 

[JoeB131]

How did they find out about it?

If you read into the story, she states she made no secret of what she was doing to her supervisors and co-workers, until she actually got pregnant, and that's whey they realized it was a "sin".

 

[manifold]

How did they find out about it?

If you read into the story, she states she made no secret of what she was doing to her supervisors and co-workers, until she actually got pregnant, and that's whey they realized it was a "sin".

Did she actually conceive? I didn't see where it said that anywhere.

 

[JoeB131]

How did they find out about it?

If you read into the story, she states she made no secret of what she was doing to her supervisors and co-workers, until she actually got pregnant, and that's whey they realized it was a "sin".

Did she actually conceive? I didn't see where it said that anywhere.

I thought they said she did, but I don't feel like hunting down the article, but as I characterized it is how I remember it.

In any case, I think we can agree, the Church lost it's mind here.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Her decision. She knew she worked for the Catholic Church. You don't like the Catholic Church's views... fine... don't work for it.

That’s not how labor law works in general and the "ministerial exception" in particular.

Every working American is entitled to expect comprehensive and consistent standards in the workplace, regardless of employer. All employers are subject to laws and policies concerning working conditions, compensation, and issues addressing discipline, hiring and firing.

The "ministerial exception" is designed to accommodate actual clergy in their vocations. A priest compelled to work long hours in hazardous conditions during a crisis such as a natural disaster, for example.

Clearly, again, Emily Herx is not serving in any ministerial capacity; that her employer is affiliated with a given religion is irrelevant, as all employers are subject to labor laws and policies, including the Catholic Church.

The U.S. Supreme Court ruled unanimously in January that religious workers can't sue their employers for job discrimination because anti-discrimination laws allow for a "ministerial exception." But the justices failed to define who was and who wasn't a religious employee.

Which is why this is likely to end up before the Court to address that very issue.

 

[manifold]

The church might have the law on their side, but you can bet Jesus isn't in their corner on this one.

 

[catzmeow]

That’s not how labor law works in general and the "ministerial exception" in particular.

Actually, the court has not yet determined if this ministerial exception applies to all teachers at religious schools, or not.

http://www.capenet.org/pdf/Outlook372.pdf

The supreme court recently decided (in a unanimous 9-0 decision) that a religious school teacher (who taught religion) could be fired. And, the only factor in this case which might be extended to make the teacher a part of a protected class is her pregnancy.

In other instances, religious schools have been upheld in dismissing employees for violations of morals clauses which they signed as a condition of employment.

 

[manifold]

Would they hire her back if she got an abortion?

 

[bodecea]

Our morals are ours. We're not asking you to live by them... just don't work for the Church.

Stop trying to force us to live by your morals. Easy.

How many people that work for the Church use birth control?

Not relevant. The Church has the right to decide who it employs. You don't like that, fine. Don't work for the Church. This is not rocket science.

It is totally relevant. And How many people that work for the Church diddle little kids?

 

[catzmeow]

And How many people that work for the Church diddle little kids?

Also not relevant.

 

[catzmeow]

Would they hire her back if she got an abortion?

Only if she referred to it as a miscarriage.