Cash for Refrigerators?

Immanuel

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May 15, 2007
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Latest in Stimulus: 'Cash for Refrigerators' - Yahoo! News

A $300 million cash-for-clunkers-type federal program to boost sales of energy-efficient home appliances provides a glimmer of hope for beleaguered makers of washing machines and dishwashers, but it's probably not enough to lift companies such as Whirlpool (NYSE:WHR - News) and Electrolux out of the worst down cycle in the sector's history.

Beginning late this fall, the program authorizes rebates of $50 to $200 for purchases of high-efficiency household appliances. The money is part of the broader economic stimulus bill passed earlier this year. Program details will vary by state, and the Energy Dept. has set a deadline of Oct. 15 for states to file formal applications. The Energy Dept. expects the bulk of the $300 million to be awarded by the end of November. (Unlike the clunkers auto program, consumers won't have to trade in their old appliances.)

From what I have read about the Cash for Clunkers program, a great number of auto dealers have not been paid for the Cash for Clunker sales they made recently and I question if they ever will be paid.

So, I have a question, if Cash for Refrigerators is up next will department stores be scrambling to make these sales wondering if they will be paid in the next six months or so, if ever?

Cash for Clunkers has run out of money already and auto dealers have not been paid. Will they get paid or will the government renig on the promise and if so, who ends up on the losing end... the dealers or the consumer? Will these cars be repo'd for non payment if the government doesn't come through?

Immie
 
[SIZE=+1]Cash for Clunkers ending[/SIZE]
They sold 457,000 cars with $1.9 billion in rebates
Link
Excerpt:
The $3 billion Cash for Clunkers program will shut down on Monday, the government said Thursday. Officials decided to wind down the program, which Congress passed to spur flagging auto sales, after determining that it would soon run out of money. The program proved wildly popular, running through its initial $1 billion in its first week and leading lawmakers to approve an additional $2 billion in funding on Aug. 7.

So it's a little expensive, but we should ask, [SIZE=+2]"Compared to what?"[/SIZE]
taxes-colgate.gif

Bush gave Colgate [SIZE=+1]$300M[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-enron.gif

Bush gave his crooked Enron friends [SIZE=+1]$772M[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-ford.gif

Bush gave Ford [SIZE=+1]$5.5 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-ge.gif

Bush gave GE [SIZE=+1]$5.3 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-ibm.gif

Bush gave IBM [SIZE=+1]$2.5 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-microsoft.gif

Bush gave Microsteal [SIZE=+1]$7.2 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-worldcom.gif

Bush gave the crooks at WorldCom [SIZE=+1]$4 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
Bush gave those corporate robbers [SIZE=+3]$25.5 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? [SIZE=+3]Nobody![/SIZE] But when Obama gives a half a million families new, fuel-efficient cars while saving tens of thousands of jobs
for [SIZE=+3]$3 billion[/SIZE] the right-wing loons go crazy and make the president out to be some socialist big spender.
 
[SIZE=+1]Cash for Clunkers ending[/SIZE]
They sold 457,000 cars with $1.9 billion in rebates
Link
Excerpt:
The $3 billion Cash for Clunkers program will shut down on Monday, the government said Thursday. Officials decided to wind down the program, which Congress passed to spur flagging auto sales, after determining that it would soon run out of money. The program proved wildly popular, running through its initial $1 billion in its first week and leading lawmakers to approve an additional $2 billion in funding on Aug. 7.

So it's a little expensive, but we should ask, [SIZE=+2]"Compared to what?"[/SIZE]
taxes-colgate.gif

Bush gave Colgate [SIZE=+1]$300M[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-enron.gif

Bush gave his crooked Enron friends [SIZE=+1]$772M[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-ford.gif

Bush gave Ford [SIZE=+1]$5.5 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-ge.gif

Bush gave GE [SIZE=+1]$5.3 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-ibm.gif

Bush gave IBM [SIZE=+1]$2.5 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-microsoft.gif

Bush gave Microsteal [SIZE=+1]$7.2 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-worldcom.gif

Bush gave the crooks at WorldCom [SIZE=+1]$4 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
Bush gave those corporate robbers [SIZE=+3]$25.5 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? [SIZE=+3]Nobody![/SIZE] But when Obama gives a half a million families new, fuel-efficient cars while saving tens of thousands of jobs
for [SIZE=+3]$3 billion[/SIZE] the right-wing loons go crazy and make the president out to be some socialist big spender.

None of that applies.

Auto dealers have not been paid. Will they be paid? If they are not paid, who is going to foot the bill?

Do you realize if the contracts were written so that the consumer (read the fine print) is responsible for payment of the $4,500 and the government doesn't make that payment and forces the banks/dealers to repo those cars, then the consumer will be out not only the new car purchased, but they will not get their old cars back.

I'm not saying that this will happen. I'm simply asking the question. I didn't buy using the Cash for Clunkers program, so I have not seen a purchase agreement written up under this plan, but I highly doubt the banks/dealers left themselves open for lack of payment under this plan. Which means that it will be the consumer who takes the hit and the only ones who will win will be the Repo Men.

Immie
 
I'm not positive immie, but I think the rebate will go to the consumer; not the retailer.

For the clunkers or the refrigerators?

My understanding is that the auto dealers are the ones who are receiving the payments on the Cash for Clunkers program. Of course, they more than likely reduced the amount they offered for the trade-in by as much as they could get away with and they probably wrote the contract as if the "Cash for Clunkers" Cash was a down payment, which means if they don't receive the payment then the consumer is on the hook for it.

Immie
 
"I highly doubt the banks/dealers left themselves open for lack of payment under this plan. Which means that it will be the consumer who takes the hit and the only ones who will win will be the Repo Men."

I have to agree with you here....it is always the consumer that takes the hit one way or another.
 
"I highly doubt the banks/dealers left themselves open for lack of payment under this plan. Which means that it will be the consumer who takes the hit and the only ones who will win will be the Repo Men."

I have to agree with you here....it is always the consumer that takes the hit one way or another.

I'm not insinuating that the government will renig, but if I had purchased a vehicle with the program, I would want to know where I stand if the government doesn't pay. I have read too many cases where the dealers don't pay the loan off on a vehicle they take as a trade in and the person who traded it in gets left on the hook for it later when it is too late to get the car back. I'd worry about this until I knew for sure the dealer was paid.

Immie
 
Never seen a fridge get repo-d though......

Ever watch "Operation Repo"?

They repo some pretty strange things.

It depends on whether this is a rebate that goes to the consumer or whether it goes to the retailer. If it goes to the retailer in order to bring the price down then I would question whether or not the retailers will go for this, if by some chance there is a significant delay in the Cash for Clunkers deal. If it is a rebate going to the consumer... well, I bought a computer once that had a rebate and it took me months to get that rebate... but I did finally. I'd be leary of buying something under this plan.

I would suppose that the government could offer this as a tax credit to be deducted off next year's tax return, but I have not heard that is the case. That might relieve some of my doubts in regards to this.

Immie
 
Latest in Stimulus: 'Cash for Refrigerators' - Yahoo! News

A $300 million cash-for-clunkers-type federal program to boost sales of energy-efficient home appliances provides a glimmer of hope for beleaguered makers of washing machines and dishwashers, but it's probably not enough to lift companies such as Whirlpool (NYSE:WHR - News) and Electrolux out of the worst down cycle in the sector's history.

Beginning late this fall, the program authorizes rebates of $50 to $200 for purchases of high-efficiency household appliances. The money is part of the broader economic stimulus bill passed earlier this year. Program details will vary by state, and the Energy Dept. has set a deadline of Oct. 15 for states to file formal applications. The Energy Dept. expects the bulk of the $300 million to be awarded by the end of November. (Unlike the clunkers auto program, consumers won't have to trade in their old appliances.)

From what I have read about the Cash for Clunkers program, a great number of auto dealers have not been paid for the Cash for Clunker sales they made recently and I question if they ever will be paid.

So, I have a question, if Cash for Refrigerators is up next will department stores be scrambling to make these sales wondering if they will be paid in the next six months or so, if ever?

Cash for Clunkers has run out of money already and auto dealers have not been paid. Will they get paid or will the government renig on the promise and if so, who ends up on the losing end... the dealers or the consumer? Will these cars be repo'd for non payment if the government doesn't come through?

Immie

Tax credits for the purchase of energy efficient appliances has been in effect for quite awhile, but a direct rebate will put money back into the economy immediately, which is the purpose. Consumers continue to save, not spend. Which can be a good thing, but not in a bad economy.
 
[SIZE=+1]Cash for Clunkers ending[/SIZE]
They sold 457,000 cars with $1.9 billion in rebates
Link
Excerpt:
The $3 billion Cash for Clunkers program will shut down on Monday, the government said Thursday. Officials decided to wind down the program, which Congress passed to spur flagging auto sales, after determining that it would soon run out of money. The program proved wildly popular, running through its initial $1 billion in its first week and leading lawmakers to approve an additional $2 billion in funding on Aug. 7.

So it's a little expensive, but we should ask, [SIZE=+2]"Compared to what?"[/SIZE]
taxes-colgate.gif

Bush gave Colgate [SIZE=+1]$300M[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-enron.gif

Bush gave his crooked Enron friends [SIZE=+1]$772M[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-ford.gif

Bush gave Ford [SIZE=+1]$5.5 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-ge.gif

Bush gave GE [SIZE=+1]$5.3 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-ibm.gif

Bush gave IBM [SIZE=+1]$2.5 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-microsoft.gif

Bush gave Microsteal [SIZE=+1]$7.2 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
taxes-worldcom.gif

Bush gave the crooks at WorldCom [SIZE=+1]$4 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? Nobody!
Bush gave those corporate robbers [SIZE=+3]$25.5 billion[/SIZE] and who did they hire? [SIZE=+3]Nobody![/SIZE] But when Obama gives a half a million families new, fuel-efficient cars while saving tens of thousands of jobs
for [SIZE=+3]$3 billion[/SIZE] the right-wing loons go crazy and make the president out to be some socialist big spender.

None of that applies.

Auto dealers have not been paid. Will they be paid? If they are not paid, who is going to foot the bill?

Do you realize if the contracts were written so that the consumer (read the fine print) is responsible for payment of the $4,500 and the government doesn't make that payment and forces the banks/dealers to repo those cars, then the consumer will be out not only the new car purchased, but they will not get their old cars back.

I'm not saying that this will happen. I'm simply asking the question. I didn't buy using the Cash for Clunkers program, so I have not seen a purchase agreement written up under this plan, but I highly doubt the banks/dealers left themselves open for lack of payment under this plan. Which means that it will be the consumer who takes the hit and the only ones who will win will be the Repo Men.

Immie

I fail to see why people are worrying themselves to death over this. So the dealers haven't all gotten their checks yet. So what? The money is still reflected as accounts receivable on their books, and doesn't affect their business operations one iota. Do you think the government is suddenly going to say they were just kidding or something? Please...

Maybe there's a lot of checking and double-checking to make sure there's no fraud in some of these transactions. Wouldn't that be nice instead of finding out in six months that some cagey groups had figured out how to game this program and it was a big ripoff?
 
I fail to see why people are worrying themselves to death over this. So the dealers haven't all gotten their checks yet. So what? The money is still reflected as accounts receivable on their books, and doesn't affect their business operations one iota. Do you think the government is suddenly going to say they were just kidding or something? Please...

Maybe there's a lot of checking and double-checking to make sure there's no fraud in some of these transactions. Wouldn't that be nice instead of finding out in six months that some cagey groups had figured out how to game this program and it was a big ripoff?

Ever hear of "Bad Debt"?

Yes, it would be nice if they did a lot of checking and double-checking. You don't honestly believe they are do you?

Also, A/R is not cash. They can't use it to pay the bills. If it sits out there too long there will be problems.

Immie
 
Maybe there's a lot of checking and double-checking to make sure there's no fraud in some of these transactions. Wouldn't that be nice instead of finding out in six months that some cagey groups had figured out how to game this program and it was a big ripoff?
And if there's one thing the federal gubmint is known for, it's rooting out waste and fraud!!! :rolleyes:

WOOOOOOAH NELLIE!!! :rofl:
 
I fail to see why people are worrying themselves to death over this. So the dealers haven't all gotten their checks yet. So what? The money is still reflected as accounts receivable on their books, and doesn't affect their business operations one iota. Do you think the government is suddenly going to say they were just kidding or something? Please...

Maybe there's a lot of checking and double-checking to make sure there's no fraud in some of these transactions. Wouldn't that be nice instead of finding out in six months that some cagey groups had figured out how to game this program and it was a big ripoff?

Ever hear of "Bad Debt"?

Yes, it would be nice if they did a lot of checking and double-checking. You don't honestly believe they are do you?

Also, A/R is not cash. They can't use it to pay the bills. If it sits out there too long there will be problems.

Immie

I still think this is just the latest political rancor and much ado about nothing.
 
Maybe there's a lot of checking and double-checking to make sure there's no fraud in some of these transactions. Wouldn't that be nice instead of finding out in six months that some cagey groups had figured out how to game this program and it was a big ripoff?
And if there's one thing the federal gubmint is known for, it's rooting out waste and fraud!!! :rolleyes:

WOOOOOOAH NELLIE!!! :rofl:

Would you complain if SOMEONE actually started to? You people are 100% projection that everything is going to hell in a handbasket. Sorry, but until I'm proven wrong (on anything), I'm ever the optimist. And I'll bet I'm a lot happier than many of you because of it.
 
I fail to see why people are worrying themselves to death over this. So the dealers haven't all gotten their checks yet. So what? The money is still reflected as accounts receivable on their books, and doesn't affect their business operations one iota. Do you think the government is suddenly going to say they were just kidding or something? Please...

Maybe there's a lot of checking and double-checking to make sure there's no fraud in some of these transactions. Wouldn't that be nice instead of finding out in six months that some cagey groups had figured out how to game this program and it was a big ripoff?

Ever hear of "Bad Debt"?

Yes, it would be nice if they did a lot of checking and double-checking. You don't honestly believe they are do you?

Also, A/R is not cash. They can't use it to pay the bills. If it sits out there too long there will be problems.

Immie

I still think this is just the latest political rancor and much ado about nothing.

I honestly expect the government to pay, but the question is when. If they start the Cash for Appliances deal before Cash for Clunkers is settled there might be some balking by the dealers.

And, this was my question, it did not come from anyone else. I was simply asking questions about how the C for C deals were written and who was responsible should the government not pay in a timely manner.

As far as I know, no one has brought this matter up and you are right, it may be nothing at all if the government pays up quickly.

Immie
 
Maybe there's a lot of checking and double-checking to make sure there's no fraud in some of these transactions. Wouldn't that be nice instead of finding out in six months that some cagey groups had figured out how to game this program and it was a big ripoff?
And if there's one thing the federal gubmint is known for, it's rooting out waste and fraud!!! :rolleyes:

WOOOOOOAH NELLIE!!! :rofl:

Would you complain if SOMEONE actually started to? You people are 100% projection that everything is going to hell in a handbasket. Sorry, but until I'm proven wrong (on anything), I'm ever the optimist. And I'll bet I'm a lot happier than many of you because of it.

Were you four years ago under BOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH? ;)

Might have been happier than me, because about five years ago, I had had it with the administration. But, most of my cohorts were still happy as a nympho at a week long orgy.

Immie
 
Administration discussing how to wind down clunkers - USATODAY.com

Administration discussing how to wind down clunkers

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Obama administration is developing plans to wind down the popular cash for clunkers program and could announce by Friday when the incentives will no longer be available.
Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said Wednesday the department would announce within 48 hours how it intends to discontinue the program that offers car buyers rebates of $3,500 or $4,500 for trading in older vehicles for new, more fuel-efficient models. Department officials met with car dealer trade groups on Wednesday to discuss how the program will eventually end and respond to complaints over a backlog of rebate payments to dealers.

Through early Wednesday, auto dealers have made deals worth $1.81 billion and are on pace to exhaust the program's $3 billion in funds in early September. The incentives have generated more than 435,000 vehicle sales but dealers want a clear plan on when the rebates will no longer be available so they don't end up on the hook for any of the incentives.

"We want to make sure that dealers know when we're getting close" to running out of the money that was allocated for the program, LaHood told reporters. LaHood said he recognized that "dealers are frustrated. They're going to get their money."

On Thursday, General Motors said it would begin providing cash advances to its dealers to help cover any cash shortfalls related to the program. The automaker said it will provide the advances for up to 30 days for dealers who have already completed a sale and they will be available as long as the program remains in effect.

The National Automobile Dealers Association said its trade group met with Transportation officials to discuss dealer concerns about reimbursement delays and ways of fixing the problems. NADA spokesman Charles Cyrill said the association "stressed the importance of addressing — as soon as possible — how the program will end, including the possible suspension of the program."

Dealers have complained of delays in getting their reimbursements approved, causing a cash crunch at their dealerships. Dealers typically borrow money to put new cars on their lots and must repay those loans within a few days of a sale.

The financial arms of several automakers have begun offering help to cash-strapped dealerships, in some cases by floating loans to help cover clunker-related shortfalls. Toyota Financial Services is offering loans to dealers for up to 60 days to cover the lag between a dealership's payment and its reimbursement. The financial-services arms of Honda Motor, Nissan Motor, Ford Motor and other automakers are offering similar programs.
...

The government's online reimbursement system was flooded with reimbursement requests shortly after the program began in late July, overwhelming the computer system and staff set up to process the deals. That led to big delays for dealers trying to file the paperwork they needed to get paid back for the rebates.

LaHood said some of the submitted paperwork has been incomplete or inaccurate, leading to delays. He acknowledged the Transportation Department did not have enough people to process the paperwork but said DOT was ramping up staff.

DOT said earlier this week it was tripling its work force to handle the rebates and expected to have 1,100 workers dealing with the paperwork by the end of the week.

....
 
Administration discussing how to wind down clunkers - USATODAY.com

Administration discussing how to wind down clunkers

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Obama administration is developing plans to wind down the popular cash for clunkers program and could announce by Friday when the incentives will no longer be available.
Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said Wednesday the department would announce within 48 hours how it intends to discontinue the program that offers car buyers rebates of $3,500 or $4,500 for trading in older vehicles for new, more fuel-efficient models. Department officials met with car dealer trade groups on Wednesday to discuss how the program will eventually end and respond to complaints over a backlog of rebate payments to dealers.

Through early Wednesday, auto dealers have made deals worth $1.81 billion and are on pace to exhaust the program's $3 billion in funds in early September. The incentives have generated more than 435,000 vehicle sales but dealers want a clear plan on when the rebates will no longer be available so they don't end up on the hook for any of the incentives.

"We want to make sure that dealers know when we're getting close" to running out of the money that was allocated for the program, LaHood told reporters. LaHood said he recognized that "dealers are frustrated. They're going to get their money."

On Thursday, General Motors said it would begin providing cash advances to its dealers to help cover any cash shortfalls related to the program. The automaker said it will provide the advances for up to 30 days for dealers who have already completed a sale and they will be available as long as the program remains in effect.

The National Automobile Dealers Association said its trade group met with Transportation officials to discuss dealer concerns about reimbursement delays and ways of fixing the problems. NADA spokesman Charles Cyrill said the association "stressed the importance of addressing — as soon as possible — how the program will end, including the possible suspension of the program."

Dealers have complained of delays in getting their reimbursements approved, causing a cash crunch at their dealerships. Dealers typically borrow money to put new cars on their lots and must repay those loans within a few days of a sale.

The financial arms of several automakers have begun offering help to cash-strapped dealerships, in some cases by floating loans to help cover clunker-related shortfalls. Toyota Financial Services is offering loans to dealers for up to 60 days to cover the lag between a dealership's payment and its reimbursement. The financial-services arms of Honda Motor, Nissan Motor, Ford Motor and other automakers are offering similar programs.
...

The government's online reimbursement system was flooded with reimbursement requests shortly after the program began in late July, overwhelming the computer system and staff set up to process the deals. That led to big delays for dealers trying to file the paperwork they needed to get paid back for the rebates.

LaHood said some of the submitted paperwork has been incomplete or inaccurate, leading to delays. He acknowledged the Transportation Department did not have enough people to process the paperwork but said DOT was ramping up staff.

DOT said earlier this week it was tripling its work force to handle the rebates and expected to have 1,100 workers dealing with the paperwork by the end of the week.

....

None of that gives any encouragement as to when the dealers will get paid.

Immie

PS please make sure you saw my last two posts.
 

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