Can Palestinians Govern "Palestine?"

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you misread the tense. This statement was made in connection with the post-Agreement phase. Relative to the comment made by MJB12741: "The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer."

The United States government has announced a new contribution of nearly US$ 68 million to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), including more than US$ 3.8 million for the construction of a multipurpose school building in Zohour to replace the current rented facilities and more than $1.3 million for the extension of Jordan Field operations support office (OSO). The majority of the nearly $68 million contribution will go to the Agency's Programme Budget to support more than 170 UNRWA schools in Jordan; as well as its health clinics and social services programmes, which help Palestine refugees’ efforts to stay healthy and secure.
SOURCE: UNRWA US Announces Additional $68M Contribution to Support Palestine Refugee

This is all about what happens after (if ever) the Israelis and the Palestinians agree and begin a withdrawal from the West Bank.

Where as, the US donor contribution to the Palestinians would probably go down; because they have virtually no expected return on any US investment.

Not true. The money the US gives to the "Palestinians" is to protect Israel.

(COMMENT)

First, the return on US Dollar Investment given to the Palestinians is not now, nor expected to be in the future, about the protection of Israel; not even the US Security Assistance funding for PA Security Forces. It is about setting the conditions to meet Article 43 HR (law and order) prior to an agreed upon withdrawal from the West Bank.

The effectiveness of U.S. assistance to the Palestinians in furthering U.S. policy objectives might be defined by answers to the following questions:

( Quote From U.S. Foreign Aid to the Palestinians CRS RS22967 18 MAR 16)
 How does it affect U.S. influence with Palestinians in working toward regional policy objectives?
 How does it address short-term (i.e., humanitarian) needs?
 How does it address longer-term development, governance, and reform efforts?​

Again, you misunderstand the various purposes for the various kinds of funding, and how the change in conditions changes the direction and focus of funding.

If the Palestinians were to come forth with acceptable conditions that actually (not theoretically) lead to a withdrawal, the US will in all probability, cut a substantial portion of funding to the PA (or successor government); simply because the US would not want that funding to be used in hostile activities against Israel. Likewise, the US would increase funding to Israel's defensive capabilities to offset the potential for staging Arab Forces (Hostile Arab Palestinians) within 9 miles of Netanya, 10 miles from Beersheba, and 11 miles from Tel Aviv.

Currently, the US is getting virtually no return on its investment from the US Dollars and equipment provided to the PA, relative to Israeli Security. In fact, one only needs to read this Discussion Group and watch as violent events occur and the low and order declines relative to the safety and security of Israeli Citizens. Incident levels are increasing --- not decreasing.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[SAYIT]

All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves. See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF.

Its not clear what you mean here. Are you saying that terrorist organizations have a right to exist? Are you saying that military branches of government have a right to exist? Are you saying that governments have a right to exist?

Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to self-government. Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to defend themselves.

They do not have the right to form or permit or protect or incite terrorist organizations which attack neighboring sovereign nations.

Here's the thing -- NO ONE is attacking Gaza or the West Bank. There is nothing to defend themselves FROM.

Correct but what Pene means is that she hates Israel because she hates Jooos and there's nothing that she nor anyone else can do to change that. It's just who and what she chooses to be:

 

[Penelope]

All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves. See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF.

Its not clear what you mean here. Are you saying that terrorist organizations have a right to exist? Are you saying that military branches of government have a right to exist? Are you saying that governments have a right to exist?

Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to self-government. Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to defend themselves.

They do not have the right to form or permit or protect or incite terrorist organizations which attack neighboring sovereign nations.

Here's the thing -- NO ONE is attacking Gaza or the West Bank. There is nothing to defend themselves FROM.

Correct but what Pene means is that she hates Israel because she hates Jooos and there's nothing that she nor anyone else can do to change that. It's just who and what she chooses to be:

View attachment 90427

All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves. See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF.

Its not clear what you mean here. Are you saying that terrorist organizations have a right to exist? Are you saying that military branches of government have a right to exist? Are you saying that governments have a right to exist?

Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to self-government. Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to defend themselves.

They do not have the right to form or permit or protect or incite terrorist organizations which attack neighboring sovereign nations.

Here's the thing -- NO ONE is attacking Gaza or the West Bank. There is nothing to defend themselves FROM.

Oh my are you kidding. Israel is always stirring stuff up with Lebanon and Gaza, and nightly bulldozing houses in the west bank. Endless shooting at fishermen, up rooting olive trees before harvest, continual harassment.

 

[MJB12741]

All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves. See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF.

Its not clear what you mean here. Are you saying that terrorist organizations have a right to exist? Are you saying that military branches of government have a right to exist? Are you saying that governments have a right to exist?

Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to self-government. Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to defend themselves.

They do not have the right to form or permit or protect or incite terrorist organizations which attack neighboring sovereign nations.

Here's the thing -- NO ONE is attacking Gaza or the West Bank. There is nothing to defend themselves FROM.

Correct but what Pene means is that she hates Israel because she hates Jooos and there's nothing that she nor anyone else can do to change that. It's just who and what she chooses to be:

View attachment 90427

All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves. See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF.

Its not clear what you mean here. Are you saying that terrorist organizations have a right to exist? Are you saying that military branches of government have a right to exist? Are you saying that governments have a right to exist?

Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to self-government. Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to defend themselves.

They do not have the right to form or permit or protect or incite terrorist organizations which attack neighboring sovereign nations.

Here's the thing -- NO ONE is attacking Gaza or the West Bank. There is nothing to defend themselves FROM.

Oh my are you kidding. Israel is always stirring stuff up with Lebanon and Gaza, and nightly bulldozing houses in the west bank. Endless shooting at fishermen, up rooting olive trees before harvest, continual harassment.

It warms my heart to see how Penelope & her ilk so suffer 24/7 living here in the USA who supports Israel. Thank you Lord.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you misread the tense. This statement was made in connection with the post-Agreement phase. Relative to the comment made by MJB12741: "The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer."

The United States government has announced a new contribution of nearly US$ 68 million to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), including more than US$ 3.8 million for the construction of a multipurpose school building in Zohour to replace the current rented facilities and more than $1.3 million for the extension of Jordan Field operations support office (OSO). The majority of the nearly $68 million contribution will go to the Agency's Programme Budget to support more than 170 UNRWA schools in Jordan; as well as its health clinics and social services programmes, which help Palestine refugees’ efforts to stay healthy and secure.
SOURCE: UNRWA US Announces Additional $68M Contribution to Support Palestine Refugee

This is all about what happens after (if ever) the Israelis and the Palestinians agree and begin a withdrawal from the West Bank.

Where as, the US donor contribution to the Palestinians would probably go down; because they have virtually no expected return on any US investment.

Not true. The money the US gives to the "Palestinians" is to protect Israel.

(COMMENT)

First, the return on US Dollar Investment given to the Palestinians is not now, nor expected to be in the future, about the protection of Israel; not even the US Security Assistance funding for PA Security Forces. It is about setting the conditions to meet Article 43 HR (law and order) prior to an agreed upon withdrawal from the West Bank.

View attachment 90425​

The effectiveness of U.S. assistance to the Palestinians in furthering U.S. policy objectives might be defined by answers to the following questions:

( Quote From U.S. Foreign Aid to the Palestinians CRS RS22967 18 MAR 16)
 How does it affect U.S. influence with Palestinians in working toward regional policy objectives?
 How does it address short-term (i.e., humanitarian) needs?
 How does it address longer-term development, governance, and reform efforts?​

Again, you misunderstand the various purposes for the various kinds of funding, and how the change in conditions changes the direction and focus of funding.

If the Palestinians were to come forth with acceptable conditions that actually (not theoretically) lead to a withdrawal, the US will in all probability, cut a substantial portion of funding to the PA (or successor government); simply because the US would not want that funding to be used in hostile activities against Israel. Likewise, the US would increase funding to Israel's defensive capabilities to offset the potential for staging Arab Forces (Hostile Arab Palestinians) within 9 miles of Netanya, 10 miles from Beersheba, and 11 miles from Tel Aviv.

Currently, the US is getting virtually no return on its investment from the US Dollars and equipment provided to the PA, relative to Israeli Security. In fact, one only needs to read this Discussion Group and watch as violent events occur and the low and order declines relative to the safety and security of Israeli Citizens. Incident levels are increasing --- not decreasing.

Most Respectfully,
R

Currently, the US is getting virtually no return on its investment from the US Dollars and equipment provided to the PA, relative to Israeli Security.​

 

[Indeependent]

Excellent question.

The last legally constituted government in Palestine was the unity government of March 2007.

What happened to that?

Arabs.

 

[Indeependent]

I have no hesitation to say that there is no lack of credulous islamic apologists who are too eager to blame everyone but themselves for their self-inflicted disasters and pratfalls.

What we see with regularity in the islamist world is the propensity for Moslems to become their own worst enemies. Drop one person one vote into islamist fear societies - allow free access to the process for political parties, and we see with regularity that the pious Islamic terrorists sweep up the votes. Does Hamas in Gaza'istan ring any bells? How about Iran’s proxy army in Lebanon: Hezbollah? How about the muslim brotherhood in Egypt?

Why do moslems put in place these loathsome despots? Because for countless generations, with only brief periods of anything different, they've been ruled by despots, have no aversion to unconstitutional changes of government, and believe to the core of their being in their Islamist creed which means submission. Not only will they gladly submit to a theocratic/totalitarian state, but they'll positively rush out and make it happen. When pious Moslems are given the chance to run their own governments, the first thing they do is lock down the society, remove all human rights, and oppress everyone within their borders with intolerable religious laws and vicious enforcement of a 7th century theocratic code. It's no accident that these patterns are seen over and over across Islam'istan.

insha'victimhood complex.

All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves. See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF. Believe me if the Hasidic Jews had anything to say about anything Israel would be back in the 700's as well, which is why secular Jews wanted Israel to be a secular country, and now its a jewish one.

Hassdism STARTED in the 18th century, retard.
Or is that...
Retard...Hassdism STARTED in the 18th century.

 

[Phoenall]

I have no hesitation to say that there is no lack of credulous islamic apologists who are too eager to blame everyone but themselves for their self-inflicted disasters and pratfalls.

What we see with regularity in the islamist world is the propensity for Moslems to become their own worst enemies. Drop one person one vote into islamist fear societies - allow free access to the process for political parties, and we see with regularity that the pious Islamic terrorists sweep up the votes. Does Hamas in Gaza'istan ring any bells? How about Iran’s proxy army in Lebanon: Hezbollah? How about the muslim brotherhood in Egypt?

Why do moslems put in place these loathsome despots? Because for countless generations, with only brief periods of anything different, they've been ruled by despots, have no aversion to unconstitutional changes of government, and believe to the core of their being in their Islamist creed which means submission. Not only will they gladly submit to a theocratic/totalitarian state, but they'll positively rush out and make it happen. When pious Moslems are given the chance to run their own governments, the first thing they do is lock down the society, remove all human rights, and oppress everyone within their borders with intolerable religious laws and vicious enforcement of a 7th century theocratic code. It's no accident that these patterns are seen over and over across Islam'istan.

insha'victimhood complex.

All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves. See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF. Believe me if the Hasidic Jews had anything to say about anything Israel would be back in the 700's as well, which is why secular Jews wanted Israel to be a secular country, and now its a jewish one.

They have no right to exist as they are terrorists, and hezbollocks have invaded Lebanon with the intention of taking over and driving out the Christian rulers/owners. If the hasidic Jews had their way you would be destitute and impoverished due to them refusing to help you keep your home and Job

 

[Phoenall]

The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer.

Does that mean then the US would not have Israel sucking off of them anymore?

Not as much as the muslims do, it stands at over 10 times the amount given to the Jews is squandered on arab muslim terrorists so start there first. Watch the threats come flying your way when you stop the blood money

 

[Phoenall]

Penelope, et al,

I don't think you understand the difference between the aid given to the Israelis, and the donor contributions and aid coerced from the international community for the Government of Palestine.

The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer.

Does that mean then the US would not have Israel sucking off of them anymore?

(COMMENT)

In fact, if the Government of Palestine (one of the three most likely possibilities) where to achieve some sort of peaceful arrangement, the likelihood is that Military Assistance would increase if that arrangement included a weakening of Israeli Defense response times, or weaken the protection in depth that the current "Area C" settlements currently achieve.

Additionally, the US would probably make a significant contribution to Israel towards advance power generation facilities, desalinization plants, and land reclamation for relocation and habitation by former Area "C" residents. There would probably be a big hike in the development of additional energy platforms in the Levant Basin and and standoff security out-platforms to protect the investment.

So, if you question pertains to the dollar incentive distribution towards Israel, the answer is no. Where as, the US donor contribution to the Palestinians would probably go down; because they have virtually no expected return on any US investment.

Most Respectfully,
R

Where as, the US donor contribution to the Palestinians would probably go down; because they have virtually no expected return on any US investment.​

Not true. The money the US gives to the "Palestinians" is to protect Israel.

WRONG it is to line the Swiss bank accounts of the hamas and fatah leaders.

 

[Phoenall]

SAYIT, et al,

This is very applicable to the "Question of Palestine." Certainly nothing about the range of possible answers is a given.

Can Palestinians Govern "Palestine?"

• it illustrates the failure of Palestinians to establish an electoral democracy and a genuinely functional state.
• Fatah correctly sees cooperation with Israel and the international community as the path to an independent state.
• Hamas sees the destruction of Israel as the only solution.
​

(COMMENT)

There are some huge chunks of considerations that need to be addressed.

• The "knowledge, skills, and abilities," (KSAs) to actually form a collection of personnel that can handle the functions of government.

∆ The knowledge being the experience or education in practical understanding of a governance.
∆ The skills in the performance of specific tasks that render a desired results --- within a given amount of time, energy, and fiscal limitations.
∆ The abilities the varied physical capacities and the essential materials to necessary to assemble a functioning entity.
​

• A citizenry that actually "wants" to exert the effort to assemble a self-governing, autonomous nation. Or, one nation (Palestine) with two autonomous Provinces (The West Bank and Gaza Strip); the union these two entities as a single sovereign state.​

If the Palestinians really "wanted" a measure of autonomy, surely they would have been able to demonstrate that sometime during the last 70 years. The fact of the matter is that they have set the political and diplomatic conditions necessary to achieve that goal. The fact that they have not means that either they:

• Do not have the prerequisite KSAs to accomplish the establishment of government.
• Do not have the motivation to establish the government.
• Do not have either KSAs or the motivation to create a functional government.
​

The international community can build a KSA base from which the prerequisites could establish an autonomous government. But it is impossible to inject motivation and leadership when the mindset of the Arab Palestinian is pointed in a hostile direction:

The High Commissioner wishing the Advisory Council to approximate as closely as possible to the abortive Legislative council, proposed to reconstitute it on the lines suggested for the latter body, that is to say with 10 officials and 8 Moslem, 2 Christians and 2 Jewish Palestinians. But of the 10 Arabs whom he nominated, 7 withdrew their acceptance under political pressure. The High Commissioner did not wish to replace them with men of less standing. It thus proved impossible to constitute a representative Advisory Council.

Later in 1923, a third attempt was made to establish an institution through which the Arab population of Palestine could be brought into cooperation with the government. The mandatory Power now proposed “the establishment of an Arab Agency in Palestine which will occupy a position exactly analogous to that accorded to the Jewish Agency”. The Arab Agency would have the right to be consulted on all matters relating to immigration, on which it was recognised that “the views of the Arab community were entitled to special consideration”. The Arab leaders declined that this offer on the ground that it would not satisfy the aspirations of the Arab people. They added that, never having recognised the status of the Jewish Agency, they had no desire for the establishment of an Arab Agency on the same basis.
​

The UN Palestine Commission asked the Arab Delegation for representation in early 1948. Of course the answer was "no."

"You can lead a horse to water --- but you can't make it drink, swim or snorkel."
​

Most Respectfully,
R

Load of crap, Rocco. Your usual slime piece against the Palestinians.

No it is fact backed up by recent history. Why have the P.A. refused to take the last steps towards statehood ?

 

[Phoenall]

I have no hesitation to say that there is no lack of credulous islamic apologists who are too eager to blame everyone but themselves for their self-inflicted disasters and pratfalls.

What we see with regularity in the islamist world is the propensity for Moslems to become their own worst enemies. Drop one person one vote into islamist fear societies - allow free access to the process for political parties, and we see with regularity that the pious Islamic terrorists sweep up the votes. Does Hamas in Gaza'istan ring any bells? How about Iran’s proxy army in Lebanon: Hezbollah? How about the muslim brotherhood in Egypt?

Why do moslems put in place these loathsome despots? Because for countless generations, with only brief periods of anything different, they've been ruled by despots, have no aversion to unconstitutional changes of government, and believe to the core of their being in their Islamist creed which means submission. Not only will they gladly submit to a theocratic/totalitarian state, but they'll positively rush out and make it happen. When pious Moslems are given the chance to run their own governments, the first thing they do is lock down the society, remove all human rights, and oppress everyone within their borders with intolerable religious laws and vicious enforcement of a 7th century theocratic code. It's no accident that these patterns are seen over and over across Islam'istan.

insha'victimhood complex.

All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves. See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF. Believe me if the Hasidic Jews had anything to say about anything Israel would be back in the 700's as well, which is why secular Jews wanted Israel to be a secular country, and now its a jewish one.

Your comment is off topic. Hamas is not defending anything by committing acts of war aimed at Israel.

Ultimately, islamism will have to come to terms with it’s all-consuming, totalitarian ideology. I think the West is, generally, the antithesis of an all-consuming, totalitarian politico-religious construct that demands "submission" to an OCD-like collection of rituals, customs and traditions that control every minute detail of one's life.

From what I read there is no sharia law in Gaza or the West Bank.

Then you are reading the wrong article as hamas and fatah are based on sharia laws

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yes, this video, although a bit dated (2012 talking about the FY2013 Budget) is fairly clean.

Currently, the US is getting virtually no return on its investment from the US Dollars and equipment provided to the PA, relative to Israeli Security. In fact, one only needs to read this Discussion Group and watch as violent events occur and the low and order declines relative to the safety and security of Israeli Citizens. Incident levels are increasing --- not decreasing.

(COMMENT)

Although the speakers says it several times in several different ways, if you scan forward to about the 4:00 mark, he talks about 28%-32% --- Security Assistance. It is not defending either Israel or Palestinian, it is an internal security force (Palestinian Police over the Palestinian People) operating largely in Area "A".

If you go to the 10:00 mark, you will here them mention that the Palestinian Security Forces also attempt to mitigate the growth of independent armed Palestinians that attempt to establish their control local villages.

Again, this does not represent any return on the American Investment. This is strictly America attempting to help the Palestinians establish law and order within 22% of the West Bank (Area "A") which they don't seem able to do. And if the Ramallah Government cannot govern Area "A" (maintaining peace, security, law and order within their own population) --- what makes them think they could handle the entire West Bank?

I think this video supports me, more than it supports your position.

(SIDEBAR)

There is very little question that we could pick-a-part and reveal all sorts of short comings in the Administration and Operation of the Israelis within the West Bank. Yes, we could -- give a scathing rebuke. But THEN, in comparison to the demonstrated abilities of the Palestinians to rule (self-govern) Area "A" --- the Israelis are making a stellar performance.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Phoenall]

All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves. See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF.

Its not clear what you mean here. Are you saying that terrorist organizations have a right to exist? Are you saying that military branches of government have a right to exist? Are you saying that governments have a right to exist?

Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to self-government. Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to defend themselves.

They do not have the right to form or permit or protect or incite terrorist organizations which attack neighboring sovereign nations.

Here's the thing -- NO ONE is attacking Gaza or the West Bank. There is nothing to defend themselves FROM.

Correct but what Pene means is that she hates Israel because she hates Jooos and there's nothing that she nor anyone else can do to change that. It's just who and what she chooses to be:

View attachment 90427

All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves. See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF.

Its not clear what you mean here. Are you saying that terrorist organizations have a right to exist? Are you saying that military branches of government have a right to exist? Are you saying that governments have a right to exist?

Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to self-government. Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to defend themselves.

They do not have the right to form or permit or protect or incite terrorist organizations which attack neighboring sovereign nations.

Here's the thing -- NO ONE is attacking Gaza or the West Bank. There is nothing to defend themselves FROM.

Oh my are you kidding. Israel is always stirring stuff up with Lebanon and Gaza, and nightly bulldozing houses in the west bank. Endless shooting at fishermen, up rooting olive trees before harvest, continual harassment.

Nothing to do with the terrorist attacks that take place every day from hamas and hezbollocks then is it.

Nothing to do with Israel's strict adherence to international laws and the Geneva conventions

Nothing to do with illegal gun running and smuggling

Nothing to do with illegal planting by invading arab muslims.


It is all the fault of the Jews according to you nazi scum and it is time the world brought you to heel

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

I think you misread the tense. This statement was made in connection with the post-Agreement phase. Relative to the comment made by MJB12741: "The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer."

The United States government has announced a new contribution of nearly US$ 68 million to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), including more than US$ 3.8 million for the construction of a multipurpose school building in Zohour to replace the current rented facilities and more than $1.3 million for the extension of Jordan Field operations support office (OSO). The majority of the nearly $68 million contribution will go to the Agency's Programme Budget to support more than 170 UNRWA schools in Jordan; as well as its health clinics and social services programmes, which help Palestine refugees’ efforts to stay healthy and secure.
SOURCE: UNRWA US Announces Additional $68M Contribution to Support Palestine Refugee

This is all about what happens after (if ever) the Israelis and the Palestinians agree and begin a withdrawal from the West Bank.

Where as, the US donor contribution to the Palestinians would probably go down; because they have virtually no expected return on any US investment.

Not true. The money the US gives to the "Palestinians" is to protect Israel.

(COMMENT)

First, the return on US Dollar Investment given to the Palestinians is not now, nor expected to be in the future, about the protection of Israel; not even the US Security Assistance funding for PA Security Forces. It is about setting the conditions to meet Article 43 HR (law and order) prior to an agreed upon withdrawal from the West Bank.

View attachment 90425​

The effectiveness of U.S. assistance to the Palestinians in furthering U.S. policy objectives might be defined by answers to the following questions:

( Quote From U.S. Foreign Aid to the Palestinians CRS RS22967 18 MAR 16)
 How does it affect U.S. influence with Palestinians in working toward regional policy objectives?
 How does it address short-term (i.e., humanitarian) needs?
 How does it address longer-term development, governance, and reform efforts?​

Again, you misunderstand the various purposes for the various kinds of funding, and how the change in conditions changes the direction and focus of funding.

If the Palestinians were to come forth with acceptable conditions that actually (not theoretically) lead to a withdrawal, the US will in all probability, cut a substantial portion of funding to the PA (or successor government); simply because the US would not want that funding to be used in hostile activities against Israel. Likewise, the US would increase funding to Israel's defensive capabilities to offset the potential for staging Arab Forces (Hostile Arab Palestinians) within 9 miles of Netanya, 10 miles from Beersheba, and 11 miles from Tel Aviv.

Currently, the US is getting virtually no return on its investment from the US Dollars and equipment provided to the PA, relative to Israeli Security. In fact, one only needs to read this Discussion Group and watch as violent events occur and the low and order declines relative to the safety and security of Israeli Citizens. Incident levels are increasing --- not decreasing.

Most Respectfully,
R

Currently, the US is getting virtually no return on its investment from the US Dollars and equipment provided to the PA, relative to Israeli Security.​

And that is to control their own extremists and terrorist groups nothing else. It is not to protect the Israeli's from attack

 

[Penelope]

I have no hesitation to say that there is no lack of credulous islamic apologists who are too eager to blame everyone but themselves for their self-inflicted disasters and pratfalls.

What we see with regularity in the islamist world is the propensity for Moslems to become their own worst enemies. Drop one person one vote into islamist fear societies - allow free access to the process for political parties, and we see with regularity that the pious Islamic terrorists sweep up the votes. Does Hamas in Gaza'istan ring any bells? How about Iran’s proxy army in Lebanon: Hezbollah? How about the muslim brotherhood in Egypt?

Why do moslems put in place these loathsome despots? Because for countless generations, with only brief periods of anything different, they've been ruled by despots, have no aversion to unconstitutional changes of government, and believe to the core of their being in their Islamist creed which means submission. Not only will they gladly submit to a theocratic/totalitarian state, but they'll positively rush out and make it happen. When pious Moslems are given the chance to run their own governments, the first thing they do is lock down the society, remove all human rights, and oppress everyone within their borders with intolerable religious laws and vicious enforcement of a 7th century theocratic code. It's no accident that these patterns are seen over and over across Islam'istan.

insha'victimhood complex.

All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves. See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF. Believe me if the Hasidic Jews had anything to say about anything Israel would be back in the 700's as well, which is why secular Jews wanted Israel to be a secular country, and now its a jewish one.

Hassdism STARTED in the 18th century, retard.
Or is that...
Retard...Hassdism STARTED in the 18th century.

Since Moritz Friedländer's investigations (especially in The Antichrist (book), Göttingen, 1901) have shown the great extent to which the Jews in Palestine and in the countries of the Diaspora fell away from Judaism, even in the 3rd century B.C., the Hasidæans appear simply to have been those "pious" ones who remained true to the customs of their fathers. They lost ground, however, from day to day, as their prayer shows: "Help, Lord; for the Ḥasid ceaseth" (כי גמר חסיד: Ps. xii. 2 [A. V. 1]). They were animated by a profound hatred for the foreign, Hellenic spirit, and for those of their Jewish brethren who were filled with it. In the Maccabean wars they came to an accounting with both. They seem by no means to have been peace-loving hermits or ascetics. Their sentiments and attitude are probably to be seen in Ps. cxlix.:

Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise in the assembly of Ḥasidim... The Ḥasidim exult in glory: they sing for joy upon their beds. They have the high praises of God in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand; to execute vengeance upon the nations, and punishments upon the peoples; to bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron: to execute upon them the promised judgment.

This agrees with II Maccabees, according to which the Hasidæans under Judas Maccabeus "continually stirred up war and rebellion, and would not let the country be at peace."

Hasideans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They just got new attire, Russian and all in black, to say "look at me".

 

[Phoenall]

I have no hesitation to say that there is no lack of credulous islamic apologists who are too eager to blame everyone but themselves for their self-inflicted disasters and pratfalls.

What we see with regularity in the islamist world is the propensity for Moslems to become their own worst enemies. Drop one person one vote into islamist fear societies - allow free access to the process for political parties, and we see with regularity that the pious Islamic terrorists sweep up the votes. Does Hamas in Gaza'istan ring any bells? How about Iran’s proxy army in Lebanon: Hezbollah? How about the muslim brotherhood in Egypt?

Why do moslems put in place these loathsome despots? Because for countless generations, with only brief periods of anything different, they've been ruled by despots, have no aversion to unconstitutional changes of government, and believe to the core of their being in their Islamist creed which means submission. Not only will they gladly submit to a theocratic/totalitarian state, but they'll positively rush out and make it happen. When pious Moslems are given the chance to run their own governments, the first thing they do is lock down the society, remove all human rights, and oppress everyone within their borders with intolerable religious laws and vicious enforcement of a 7th century theocratic code. It's no accident that these patterns are seen over and over across Islam'istan.

insha'victimhood complex.

All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves. See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF. Believe me if the Hasidic Jews had anything to say about anything Israel would be back in the 700's as well, which is why secular Jews wanted Israel to be a secular country, and now its a jewish one.

Hassdism STARTED in the 18th century, retard.
Or is that...
Retard...Hassdism STARTED in the 18th century.

Since Moritz Friedländer's investigations (especially in The Antichrist (book), Göttingen, 1901) have shown the great extent to which the Jews in Palestine and in the countries of the Diaspora fell away from Judaism, even in the 3rd century B.C., the Hasidæans appear simply to have been those "pious" ones who remained true to the customs of their fathers. They lost ground, however, from day to day, as their prayer shows: "Help, Lord; for the Ḥasid ceaseth" (כי גמר חסיד: Ps. xii. 2 [A. V. 1]). They were animated by a profound hatred for the foreign, Hellenic spirit, and for those of their Jewish brethren who were filled with it. In the Maccabean wars they came to an accounting with both. They seem by no means to have been peace-loving hermits or ascetics. Their sentiments and attitude are probably to be seen in Ps. cxlix.:

Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise in the assembly of Ḥasidim... The Ḥasidim exult in glory: they sing for joy upon their beds. They have the high praises of God in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand; to execute vengeance upon the nations, and punishments upon the peoples; to bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron: to execute upon them the promised judgment.

This agrees with II Maccabees, according to which the Hasidæans under Judas Maccabeus "continually stirred up war and rebellion, and would not let the country be at peace."

Hasideans - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They just got new attire, Russian and all in black, to say "look at me".

Did you read the first entry of the article


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Showing that it is not to be trusted and used as evidence.


And as the author says My long term goals are to have a job. making one of those you despise so much

 

[SAYIT]

Currently, the US is getting virtually no return on its investment from the US Dollars and equipment provided to the PA, relative to Israeli Security...

And that is to control their own extremists and terrorist groups nothing else. It is not to protect the Israeli's from attack

I beg to differ.

Certainly Fatah's security efforts - as a matter of self-preservation - are intended to suppress the growth of Islamic extremism and violent gangs in the WB but Abbas understands that the Palestinians must demonstrate a capacity to both govern themselves and to interact peacefully with their established neighbors if they are ever to achieve functioning statehood.

P F Tinmore, et al,
There is very little question that we could pick-a-part and reveal all sorts of short comings in the Administration and Operation of the Israelis within the West Bank. Yes, we could -- give a scathing rebuke. But THEN, in comparison to the demonstrated abilities of the Palestinians to rule (self-govern) Area "A" --- the Israelis are making a stellar performance.

The security agenda of Israel in the WB was, understandably, primarily intended to protect Israelis and yes, their methods may be deemed to have been oppressive.

Fatah's agenda, pragmatically, is primarily to protect Palestinians and demonstrate their capacity to function as a peaceful and productive society and their methods may also be judged oppressive.

Both Fatah and Israel found the suppression of Islamists and others to be a necessary evil when weighed against other options.

 

[Hollie]

SAYIT, et al,

This is very applicable to the "Question of Palestine." Certainly nothing about the range of possible answers is a given.

Can Palestinians Govern "Palestine?"

• it illustrates the failure of Palestinians to establish an electoral democracy and a genuinely functional state.
• Fatah correctly sees cooperation with Israel and the international community as the path to an independent state.
• Hamas sees the destruction of Israel as the only solution.
​

(COMMENT)

There are some huge chunks of considerations that need to be addressed.

• The "knowledge, skills, and abilities," (KSAs) to actually form a collection of personnel that can handle the functions of government.

∆ The knowledge being the experience or education in practical understanding of a governance.
∆ The skills in the performance of specific tasks that render a desired results --- within a given amount of time, energy, and fiscal limitations.
∆ The abilities the varied physical capacities and the essential materials to necessary to assemble a functioning entity.
​

• A citizenry that actually "wants" to exert the effort to assemble a self-governing, autonomous nation. Or, one nation (Palestine) with two autonomous Provinces (The West Bank and Gaza Strip); the union these two entities as a single sovereign state.​

If the Palestinians really "wanted" a measure of autonomy, surely they would have been able to demonstrate that sometime during the last 70 years. The fact of the matter is that they have set the political and diplomatic conditions necessary to achieve that goal. The fact that they have not means that either they:

• Do not have the prerequisite KSAs to accomplish the establishment of government.
• Do not have the motivation to establish the government.
• Do not have either KSAs or the motivation to create a functional government.
​

The international community can build a KSA base from which the prerequisites could establish an autonomous government. But it is impossible to inject motivation and leadership when the mindset of the Arab Palestinian is pointed in a hostile direction:

The High Commissioner wishing the Advisory Council to approximate as closely as possible to the abortive Legislative council, proposed to reconstitute it on the lines suggested for the latter body, that is to say with 10 officials and 8 Moslem, 2 Christians and 2 Jewish Palestinians. But of the 10 Arabs whom he nominated, 7 withdrew their acceptance under political pressure. The High Commissioner did not wish to replace them with men of less standing. It thus proved impossible to constitute a representative Advisory Council.

Later in 1923, a third attempt was made to establish an institution through which the Arab population of Palestine could be brought into cooperation with the government. The mandatory Power now proposed “the establishment of an Arab Agency in Palestine which will occupy a position exactly analogous to that accorded to the Jewish Agency”. The Arab Agency would have the right to be consulted on all matters relating to immigration, on which it was recognised that “the views of the Arab community were entitled to special consideration”. The Arab leaders declined that this offer on the ground that it would not satisfy the aspirations of the Arab people. They added that, never having recognised the status of the Jewish Agency, they had no desire for the establishment of an Arab Agency on the same basis.
​

The UN Palestine Commission asked the Arab Delegation for representation in early 1948. Of course the answer was "no."

"You can lead a horse to water --- but you can't make it drink, swim or snorkel."
​

Most Respectfully,
R

Load of crap, Rocco. Your usual slime piece against the Palestinians.

No it is fact backed up by recent history. Why have the P.A. refused to take the last steps towards statehood ?

One word: The UNRWA welfare fraud.

All seriousness aside, the cash cow that maintains entire infrastructures of Arab-Moslem welfare cheats, various islamic terrorist franchises and their enablers along with the fabulous wealth of those who control the money spigot is endangered by formal statehood for 'Pal'istanians. As Rocco noted earlier, the US (and other nations contributing to UNRWA) would likely reduce their contributions with Pal'istanian statehood.

The UNRWA welfare fraud has morphed into a generational endowment that perpetuates the invention of Pal'istanian refugees and destroys any incentive for Arabs-Moslems to make an attempt to build a functioning society. I think that in a very real sense, the west needs to accept responsibility for continuing to fund the UNRWA fraud while demanding no accountability on the part of Arabs-Moslems.

Anyone can do a search for themselves and find the documented abuses of UNRWA fraud money, so much of it not subject to any standards of audit and accountability and managed by thieves who maintain a payroll that includes Arab-Moslem terrorists.

 

[SAYIT]

...Why have the P.A. refused to take the last steps towards statehood ?

One word: The UNRWA welfare fraud.

All seriousness aside, the cash cow that maintains entire infrastructures of Arab-Moslem welfare cheats, various islamic terrorist franchises and their enablers along with the fabulous wealth of those who control the money spigot is endangered by formal statehood for 'Pal'istanians. As Rocco noted earlier, the US (and other nations contributing to UNRWA) would likely reduce their contributions with Pal'istanian statehood.

The UNRWA welfare fraud has morphed into a generational endowment that perpetuates the invention of Pal'istanian refugees and destroys any incentive for Arabs-Moslems to make an attempt to build a functioning society. I think that in a very real sense, the west needs to accept responsibility for continuing to fund the UNRWA fraud while demanding no accountability on the part of Arabs-Moslems.

Anyone can do a search for themselves and find the documented abuses of UNRWA fraud money, so much of it not subject to any standards of audit and accountability and managed by thieves who maintain a payroll that includes Arab-Moslem terrorists.

Interesting take but IMHO not entirely accurate.

UNRWA is a cash cow (in the form of jobs) for Palestinians, foreign nationals and UN big-wigs. As such it would not disappear overnight but rather would remain the UN nanny agency on the ground. Bureaucracies rarely go away quietly (if they go at all) and international bleeding hearts will fight to maintain UNRWA for years if not decades.

Additionally, many countries (US, Euro, Gulf States) will be so energized by a peace deal and Pal statehood they will invest time and cash to get it off the ground. They could not afford to let it fail. Neither could Israel.