Can Palestinians Govern "Palestine?"

SAYIT

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Feb 26, 2012
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As has been the norm for a decade, the Oslo Accords-created Palestinian Authority has "postponed" the October elections. Unsure of the vote's outcome, Abbas's "Supreme Court" ordered the delay while they consider 2 election related issues.

While this is not an unusual move in places where the rule of law plays second fiddle to the ruling regime's whim, it illustrates the failure of Palestinians to establish an electoral democracy and a genuinely functional state.

The ascension of Hamas prompted the PA's Fatah ruling party to tighten their grip on their share of power which is most of the West Bank, creating 2 separate and competing national gov'ts.

While Fatah's intention - the exclusion of a known terrorist gang from governance - may have been pragmatic, the result has been to engender oppression. Fatah correctly sees cooperation with Israel and the international community as the path to an independent state. Hamas sees the destruction of Israel as the only solution.

As things now stand the PA must either to form a single gov't with the rule of law and peaceful coexistence as its goals or to continue with Gaza and the WB as separate entities and perhaps create a WB Palestinian State sans Gaza.

The choice is, as always, theirs.

Next month’s Palestinian local elections aren’t happening. Here’s why. [excerpted]

...The Palestinian Authority is an electoral democracy in name, but the governments that rule in the West Bank and Gaza are effectively one-party regimes. Following Hamas’s victory in 2006, violent clashes resulted in the Islamist movement seizing control of the Gaza Strip and taking over PA institutions there, including the Interior Ministry, public police and security forces. Fatah, for its part, purged much of the central PA authority structures in the West Bank of Hamas supporters. Today, these two islands of Palestinian rule persist — each under the seemingly firm grip of a single party.

Yet beneath the surface of these coercive states, sporadic episodes of relative self-rule at the local level in the West Bank and Gaza have made local elections a historically important harbinger of political sentiment. In a setting where it is unclear how the population’s interests are being represented at the national level, subnational elections are a valuable mechanism for opposition movements to form popular bases and demonstrate competence in governance. Local elections, just as they did for a brief time when Israel directly ruled the territories, have served as an important, if not entirely even, counterweight to autocratic authority. Perhaps more important, they have often served as the bellwether of fundamental shifts in the Palestinian resistance movement.
 
The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer.
 
Excellent question.

The last legally constituted government in Palestine was the unity government of March 2007.

What happened to that?
 
Well I think the writing is on the wall, they do not stand a chance with Israel, the moderate ones can become like the moderate traditional Israelites and the zealots ones can join in with the Hasidic community. As long as they do not get rid of the Mosque on the Temple mount, and also of course Israel has to recognize them as citizens with full equal rights.
 
I have no hesitation to say that there is no lack of credulous islamic apologists who are too eager to blame everyone but themselves for their self-inflicted disasters and pratfalls.

What we see with regularity in the islamist world is the propensity for Moslems to become their own worst enemies. Drop one person one vote into islamist fear societies - allow free access to the process for political parties, and we see with regularity that the pious Islamic terrorists sweep up the votes. Does Hamas in Gaza'istan ring any bells? How about Iran’s proxy army in Lebanon: Hezbollah? How about the muslim brotherhood in Egypt?

Why do moslems put in place these loathsome despots? Because for countless generations, with only brief periods of anything different, they've been ruled by despots, have no aversion to unconstitutional changes of government, and believe to the core of their being in their Islamist creed which means submission. Not only will they gladly submit to a theocratic/totalitarian state, but they'll positively rush out and make it happen. When pious Moslems are given the chance to run their own governments, the first thing they do is lock down the society, remove all human rights, and oppress everyone within their borders with intolerable religious laws and vicious enforcement of a 7th century theocratic code. It's no accident that these patterns are seen over and over across Islam'istan.

insha'victimhood complex.
 
Excellent question.

The last legally constituted government in Palestine was the unity government of March 2007.

What happened to that?





It self destructed because it gained too much power far too quickly. Then it was taken over by islamonazi terrorists that didn't know what they were doing and started to kill its own people in as many ways as it could devise. What government would mass murder children just to chase their fathers out of gaza, drag political opponents through the streets of gaza, gang rape brides on their wedding day after killing their husbands and lastly throw children from the tops of high buildings because they were related to fatah members.
 
SAYIT, et al,

This is very applicable to the "Question of Palestine." Certainly nothing about the range of possible answers is a given.

Can Palestinians Govern "Palestine?"

• it illustrates the failure of Palestinians to establish an electoral democracy and a genuinely functional state.
• Fatah correctly sees cooperation with Israel and the international community as the path to an independent state.
• Hamas sees the destruction of Israel as the only solution.
(COMMENT)

There are some huge chunks of considerations that need to be addressed.

• The "knowledge, skills, and abilities," (KSAs) to actually form a collection of personnel that can handle the functions of government.

∆ The knowledge being the experience or education in practical understanding of a governance.
∆ The skills in the performance of specific tasks that render a desired results --- within a given amount of time, energy, and fiscal limitations.
∆ The abilities the varied physical capacities and the essential materials to necessary to assemble a functioning entity.
• A citizenry that actually "wants" to exert the effort to assemble a self-governing, autonomous nation. Or, one nation (Palestine) with two autonomous Provinces (The West Bank and Gaza Strip); the union these two entities as a single sovereign state.
If the Palestinians really "wanted" a measure of autonomy, surely they would have been able to demonstrate that sometime during the last 70 years. The fact of the matter is that they have set the political and diplomatic conditions necessary to achieve that goal. The fact that they have not means that either they:

• Do not have the prerequisite KSAs to accomplish the establishment of government.
• Do not have the motivation to establish the government.
• Do not have either KSAs or the motivation to create a functional government.
The international community can build a KSA base from which the prerequisites could establish an autonomous government. But it is impossible to inject motivation and leadership when the mindset of the Arab Palestinian is pointed in a hostile direction:

The High Commissioner wishing the Advisory Council to approximate as closely as possible to the abortive Legislative council, proposed to reconstitute it on the lines suggested for the latter body, that is to say with 10 officials and 8 Moslem, 2 Christians and 2 Jewish Palestinians. But of the 10 Arabs whom he nominated, 7 withdrew their acceptance under political pressure. The High Commissioner did not wish to replace them with men of less standing. It thus proved impossible to constitute a representative Advisory Council.

Later in 1923, a third attempt was made to establish an institution through which the Arab population of Palestine could be brought into cooperation with the government. The mandatory Power now proposed “the establishment of an Arab Agency in Palestine which will occupy a position exactly analogous to that accorded to the Jewish Agency”. The Arab Agency would have the right to be consulted on all matters relating to immigration, on which it was recognised that “the views of the Arab community were entitled to special consideration”. The Arab leaders declined that this offer on the ground that it would not satisfy the aspirations of the Arab people. They added that, never having recognised the status of the Jewish Agency, they had no desire for the establishment of an Arab Agency on the same basis.

The UN Palestine Commission asked the Arab Delegation for representation in early 1948. Of course the answer was "no."

"You can lead a horse to water --- but you can't make it drink, swim or snorkel."

Most Respectfully,
R
 
Well I think the writing is on the wall, they do not stand a chance with Israel, the moderate ones can become like the moderate traditional Israelites and the zealots ones can join in with the Hasidic community. As long as they do not get rid of the Mosque on the Temple mount, and also of course Israel has to recognize them as citizens with full equal rights.





Why what law demands that, the actual law saws that they have the right to evict terrorists and enemies of the state from their nation. The mosque can be moved to an islamic holy site, if any can be found, and the Temple re built in its place. The temple mount was a Jewish holy place before islam was invented by the mentally deranged false prophet in 623 C.E.

AND WHAT ABOUT INTERNATIONAL LAW THAT GAVE THE LAND TO THE JEWS WHILE GIVING THE ARAB MUSLIMS THE FERTILE JORDAN VALLEY.
 
I have no hesitation to say that there is no lack of credulous islamic apologists who are too eager to blame everyone but themselves for their self-inflicted disasters and pratfalls.

What we see with regularity in the islamist world is the propensity for Moslems to become their own worst enemies. Drop one person one vote into islamist fear societies - allow free access to the process for political parties, and we see with regularity that the pious Islamic terrorists sweep up the votes. Does Hamas in Gaza'istan ring any bells? How about Iran’s proxy army in Lebanon: Hezbollah? How about the muslim brotherhood in Egypt?

Why do moslems put in place these loathsome despots? Because for countless generations, with only brief periods of anything different, they've been ruled by despots, have no aversion to unconstitutional changes of government, and believe to the core of their being in their Islamist creed which means submission. Not only will they gladly submit to a theocratic/totalitarian state, but they'll positively rush out and make it happen. When pious Moslems are given the chance to run their own governments, the first thing they do is lock down the society, remove all human rights, and oppress everyone within their borders with intolerable religious laws and vicious enforcement of a 7th century theocratic code. It's no accident that these patterns are seen over and over across Islam'istan.

insha'victimhood complex.

All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves. See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF. Believe me if the Hasidic Jews had anything to say about anything Israel would be back in the 700's as well, which is why secular Jews wanted Israel to be a secular country, and now its a jewish one.
 
The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer.

Does that mean then the US would not have Israel sucking off of them anymore?
 
I have no hesitation to say that there is no lack of credulous islamic apologists who are too eager to blame everyone but themselves for their self-inflicted disasters and pratfalls.

What we see with regularity in the islamist world is the propensity for Moslems to become their own worst enemies. Drop one person one vote into islamist fear societies - allow free access to the process for political parties, and we see with regularity that the pious Islamic terrorists sweep up the votes. Does Hamas in Gaza'istan ring any bells? How about Iran’s proxy army in Lebanon: Hezbollah? How about the muslim brotherhood in Egypt?

Why do moslems put in place these loathsome despots? Because for countless generations, with only brief periods of anything different, they've been ruled by despots, have no aversion to unconstitutional changes of government, and believe to the core of their being in their Islamist creed which means submission. Not only will they gladly submit to a theocratic/totalitarian state, but they'll positively rush out and make it happen. When pious Moslems are given the chance to run their own governments, the first thing they do is lock down the society, remove all human rights, and oppress everyone within their borders with intolerable religious laws and vicious enforcement of a 7th century theocratic code. It's no accident that these patterns are seen over and over across Islam'istan.

insha'victimhood complex.

All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves. See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF. Believe me if the Hasidic Jews had anything to say about anything Israel would be back in the 700's as well, which is why secular Jews wanted Israel to be a secular country, and now its a jewish one.
Your comment is off topic. Hamas is not defending anything by committing acts of war aimed at Israel.

Ultimately, islamism will have to come to terms with it’s all-consuming, totalitarian ideology. I think the West is, generally, the antithesis of an all-consuming, totalitarian politico-religious construct that demands "submission" to an OCD-like collection of rituals, customs and traditions that control every minute detail of one's life.
 
Penelope, et al,

I don't think you understand the difference between the aid given to the Israelis, and the donor contributions and aid coerced from the international community for the Government of Palestine.

The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer.

Does that mean then the US would not have Israel sucking off of them anymore?
(COMMENT)

In fact, if the Government of Palestine (one of the three most likely possibilities) where to achieve some sort of peaceful arrangement, the likelihood is that Military Assistance would increase if that arrangement included a weakening of Israeli Defense response times, or weaken the protection in depth that the current "Area C" settlements currently achieve.

Additionally, the US would probably make a significant contribution to Israel towards advance power generation facilities, desalinization plants, and land reclamation for relocation and habitation by former Area "C" residents. There would probably be a big hike in the development of additional energy platforms in the Levant Basin and and standoff security out-platforms to protect the investment.

So, if you question pertains to the dollar incentive distribution towards Israel, the answer is no. Where as, the US donor contribution to the Palestinians would probably go down; because they have virtually no expected return on any US investment.

Most Respectfully,
R
 
The Palestinians could govern themselves if they could be permitted to hold an election.


Palestinians on both sides seethe over postponed elections
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Frustration and discontent prevailed among Palestinians on Sept. 8, after the High Court of Justice in Ramallah postponed the local elections indefinitely.

Palestinians are disappointed by the postponement of the local elections, and with the political divide as deep as ever, the wide disillusionment and frustration plaguing both the West Bank and Gaza is giving way to apathy.

The court's decision followed a number of appeals presented by several lawyers, challenging the legitimacy of elections that would not include East Jerusalem and the lack of appropriate conditions for holding them. The appeals also challenged the legitimacy of the Gaza courts and judiciary tasked with evaluating them.

Mohammed al-Najjar, who sells vegetables in the popular Khan Yunis market west of Gaza City, told Al-Monitor he was angry at the postponement. “We were hoping the local elections would lead to legislative and presidential elections … that would improve our bad economic situation. My family and I registered to vote, but the elections were unfortunately postponed.”


Read more: Palestinians on both sides seethe over postponed elections
jt2
 
Penelope, et al,

I don't think you understand the difference between the aid given to the Israelis, and the donor contributions and aid coerced from the international community for the Government of Palestine.

The worst punishment Israel could inflict on the Palestinians would be self government,with self determination without having Israel to suck off of to support them any longer.

Does that mean then the US would not have Israel sucking off of them anymore?
(COMMENT)

In fact, if the Government of Palestine (one of the three most likely possibilities) where to achieve some sort of peaceful arrangement, the likelihood is that Military Assistance would increase if that arrangement included a weakening of Israeli Defense response times, or weaken the protection in depth that the current "Area C" settlements currently achieve.

Additionally, the US would probably make a significant contribution to Israel towards advance power generation facilities, desalinization plants, and land reclamation for relocation and habitation by former Area "C" residents. There would probably be a big hike in the development of additional energy platforms in the Levant Basin and and standoff security out-platforms to protect the investment.

So, if you question pertains to the dollar incentive distribution towards Israel, the answer is no. Where as, the US donor contribution to the Palestinians would probably go down; because they have virtually no expected return on any US investment.

Most Respectfully,
R
Where as, the US donor contribution to the Palestinians would probably go down; because they have virtually no expected return on any US investment.​

Not true. The money the US gives to the "Palestinians" is to protect Israel.
 
SAYIT, et al,

This is very applicable to the "Question of Palestine." Certainly nothing about the range of possible answers is a given.

Can Palestinians Govern "Palestine?"

• it illustrates the failure of Palestinians to establish an electoral democracy and a genuinely functional state.
• Fatah correctly sees cooperation with Israel and the international community as the path to an independent state.
• Hamas sees the destruction of Israel as the only solution.
(COMMENT)

There are some huge chunks of considerations that need to be addressed.
• The "knowledge, skills, and abilities," (KSAs) to actually form a collection of personnel that can handle the functions of government.

∆ The knowledge being the experience or education in practical understanding of a governance.
∆ The skills in the performance of specific tasks that render a desired results --- within a given amount of time, energy, and fiscal limitations.
∆ The abilities the varied physical capacities and the essential materials to necessary to assemble a functioning entity.
• A citizenry that actually "wants" to exert the effort to assemble a self-governing, autonomous nation. Or, one nation (Palestine) with two autonomous Provinces (The West Bank and Gaza Strip); the union these two entities as a single sovereign state.​
If the Palestinians really "wanted" a measure of autonomy, surely they would have been able to demonstrate that sometime during the last 70 years. The fact of the matter is that they have set the political and diplomatic conditions necessary to achieve that goal. The fact that they have not means that either they:

• Do not have the prerequisite KSAs to accomplish the establishment of government.
• Do not have the motivation to establish the government.
• Do not have either KSAs or the motivation to create a functional government.
The international community can build a KSA base from which the prerequisites could establish an autonomous government. But it is impossible to inject motivation and leadership when the mindset of the Arab Palestinian is pointed in a hostile direction:

The High Commissioner wishing the Advisory Council to approximate as closely as possible to the abortive Legislative council, proposed to reconstitute it on the lines suggested for the latter body, that is to say with 10 officials and 8 Moslem, 2 Christians and 2 Jewish Palestinians. But of the 10 Arabs whom he nominated, 7 withdrew their acceptance under political pressure. The High Commissioner did not wish to replace them with men of less standing. It thus proved impossible to constitute a representative Advisory Council.

Later in 1923, a third attempt was made to establish an institution through which the Arab population of Palestine could be brought into cooperation with the government. The mandatory Power now proposed “the establishment of an Arab Agency in Palestine which will occupy a position exactly analogous to that accorded to the Jewish Agency”. The Arab Agency would have the right to be consulted on all matters relating to immigration, on which it was recognised that “the views of the Arab community were entitled to special consideration”. The Arab leaders declined that this offer on the ground that it would not satisfy the aspirations of the Arab people. They added that, never having recognised the status of the Jewish Agency, they had no desire for the establishment of an Arab Agency on the same basis.

The UN Palestine Commission asked the Arab Delegation for representation in early 1948. Of course the answer was "no."

"You can lead a horse to water --- but you can't make it drink, swim or snorkel."

Most Respectfully,
R
Load of crap, Rocco. Your usual slime piece against the Palestinians.
 
I have no hesitation to say that there is no lack of credulous islamic apologists who are too eager to blame everyone but themselves for their self-inflicted disasters and pratfalls.

What we see with regularity in the islamist world is the propensity for Moslems to become their own worst enemies. Drop one person one vote into islamist fear societies - allow free access to the process for political parties, and we see with regularity that the pious Islamic terrorists sweep up the votes. Does Hamas in Gaza'istan ring any bells? How about Iran’s proxy army in Lebanon: Hezbollah? How about the muslim brotherhood in Egypt?

Why do moslems put in place these loathsome despots? Because for countless generations, with only brief periods of anything different, they've been ruled by despots, have no aversion to unconstitutional changes of government, and believe to the core of their being in their Islamist creed which means submission. Not only will they gladly submit to a theocratic/totalitarian state, but they'll positively rush out and make it happen. When pious Moslems are given the chance to run their own governments, the first thing they do is lock down the society, remove all human rights, and oppress everyone within their borders with intolerable religious laws and vicious enforcement of a 7th century theocratic code. It's no accident that these patterns are seen over and over across Islam'istan.

insha'victimhood complex.

All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves. See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF. Believe me if the Hasidic Jews had anything to say about anything Israel would be back in the 700's as well, which is why secular Jews wanted Israel to be a secular country, and now its a jewish one.
Your comment is off topic. Hamas is not defending anything by committing acts of war aimed at Israel.

Ultimately, islamism will have to come to terms with it’s all-consuming, totalitarian ideology. I think the West is, generally, the antithesis of an all-consuming, totalitarian politico-religious construct that demands "submission" to an OCD-like collection of rituals, customs and traditions that control every minute detail of one's life.

From what I read there is no sharia law in Gaza or the West Bank.
 
All you bring up is Hamas and Hezbollah , both of which have a right to defend themselves. See I could give 10 you know what about Israel, except its time for peace, and frankly Hamas and Hezbollah have just as much right to exist as the IDF.

Its not clear what you mean here. Are you saying that terrorist organizations have a right to exist? Are you saying that military branches of government have a right to exist? Are you saying that governments have a right to exist?

Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to self-government. Of course, the people of Gaza and the West Bank and Lebanon have a right to defend themselves.

They do not have the right to form or permit or protect or incite terrorist organizations which attack neighboring sovereign nations.

Here's the thing -- NO ONE is attacking Gaza or the West Bank. There is nothing to defend themselves FROM.
 
From what I read there is no sharia law in Gaza or the West Bank.

Where did you read that?

Gaza Strip The Egyptian personal status law of 1954 is applied. The personal status law is based on Islamic law and regulates matters related to inheritance, marriage, divorce and child custody. Shari’a courts hear cases related to personal status. The testimony of a woman is worth only half of that of a man in cases related to marriage, divorce and child custody.

Palestine The Jordanian personal status law of 1976 is applied. The personal status law is based on Islamic law and regulates matters related to inheritance, marriage, divorce and child custody. Sharia courts hear cases related to personal status. The testimony of a woman is worth only half of that of a man in cases related to marriage, divorce and child custody.

Source and source.

 
...If the Palestinians really "wanted" a measure of autonomy, surely they would have been able to demonstrate that sometime during the last 70 years...
The UN Palestine Commission asked the Arab Delegation for representation in early 1948. Of course the answer was "no."
"You can lead a horse to water --- but you can't make it drink, swim or snorkel."​
Load of crap, Rocco. Your usual slime piece against the Palestinians.

Wah ... Wah ...Waaaah.

Considering the anti-Israel propaganda that regularly rolls off your keyboard you are hardly in a position to complain.

Ironically, just a couple of years ago Rocco was as tough on Israel as he is now on the Palestinians but his POV has, IMHO, slowly become increasingly rational and, as such, increasing pro-Israel.
 

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