Can A Muslim Be A Good American?

[maineman]

Hes started the thread there at my suggestion, to get the pissing contest out of the main forums.

that's all well and good...but for him now to whine as if I am the only one between the two of us who has name called or insulted is a laughable assertion.

Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Superlative]

Provide me with a list of High level Christian religious leaders that advocate murder in the name of God.

Bush comes to miind. Im sure if there was an army occupying the US Goergie or any Cleric in power would call upon belief in God to strenghthen peoples resistance and resolve.

That advices their followers to riot and murder anyone that disagrees with them. That proclaims suicide bombers will be rewarded by God in heaven.

Provide me with one Christian nation being occupied by an invading force. And ill show you advocates of murder in high places.

In fact provide me with one region occupied by an invading force that doesnt fight back with everything they have.

The Iraqi's have NOWHERE to go, and their families and friends are dead or dying, wouldnt you take up the cause to fight?

A few extremist nuts committed terrorist atrocities. (9/11)

Then the US kicked in the door of a people they didnt understand, who had nothing to do with it, removed all order and control and started killing them.

And now were scared they are going to fight back?

What did you expect?

If another country invaded the US removed our leader and destroyed all semblance of order, and began killing people, wouldnt you start defending your land any way you could?

 

[Eightball]

cute.

If he had blown it up in the name of St. Francis of Assisi, do you think it makes sense to then hate all Christians?

I think you miss the point. The bible doesn't not encourage blowing up government buildings, in fact Paul the apostle encouraged Christians to respect the government authorities over them and to see them as their protectors.

Also this did not mean that Paul propogated the adherence or devotion to governments or entities of that government that ethically or morally violated God's laws.

Do we have wide scale bombing of planned parenthood clinics, or killing of their personel? Why, cause the biblical God says that it's murder.

Many a biblical Christian joined the 6 million Jews, Gypsies, retarded, mentally ill, etc. in the Nazi death camps.

Corey Tanbaum a biblical Christian as well as her sister spent years in Nazi concentration camps because they hid Jews from the Nazis. I don't remember any notable Muslims doing likewise for their Christian or Jewish counterparts?

Islam, says that their belief system and adherence supercedes any and all governmental authority, unless it's based on Islamic principles, not necessarily moral, or humanitarian principles.

This means that if and when there is a large enough populous within a "said" country of Islamic adherents, then they have the right via the Koran to change even a Democratically formed government into an Islamic Theocracy.

Say all you want about the dangerous Pat Robertson and the now dead Jerry Falwell, their only desire was that their country embrace Christian principles that enhanced democracy, liberty, and fairness to all human beings, unborn and born alike.

It is Christian based cultures that have brought about equality of races, and sexes, as no other cultures have.

The Koran still sees the female human as chattle, and non-Muslims as potential enemies, and basically worthless in the eyes of their god/Allah.
***
When you defend yourself by saying I know many good Muslims, actually your mis-titleing them. They are good people, but not good Muslims, and in order to be good and humanitarian, and tolerant, they must throw aside the main thrust of Mohammed's teachings, that is their "truth". So in a sense, good Muslims as we see them in the U.S. or in any part of the world where they are basically tolerating the rest of us, is actually an act of hypocrisy on their part. Just wait until there is a majority of Muslims in any countyr, and you will see a diminishing of the moderate or P.C. or tolerant, or good Muslim according to your liberal, sensitive, parameters, and philosophy of life and fair-play.
*****
Now bring on the hate stuff, the name calling, the intolerance accusations. It's expected.

Truth hurts, denial hurts worse in the end.

 

[maineman]

The Koran still sees the female human as chattle, and non-Muslims as potential enemies, and basically worthless in the eyes of their god/Allah.

.

oh.... I forgot. all that violent intolerant stuff in the old testament doesn't count anymore....it got "edited out" somehow, but the koran has to stay just the way it always was.

excuse me for not recognizing that.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

The world is not suffering from a global christianity threat. While christians are suffering from worldwide christian pursecution. (muslim world)

I dont understand why you dont get that?

oh.... I forgot. all that violent intolerant stuff in the old testament doesn't count anymore....it got "edited out" somehow, but the koran has to stay just the way it always was.

excuse me for not recognizing that.

 

[Superlative]

The world is not suffering from a global christianity threat. While christians are suffering from worldwide christian pursecution. (muslim world)

I dont understand why you dont get that?

Please list the examples of how Christians are suffering from worldwide Christian pursecution. (muslim world)

Please show me where Christians are being occupied, slaughtered, or killed at will by anyone that the US doesnt or hasnt supported at some point.

Please give mean examples where Iran, Indonesia, Iraq, Dominican Republic, Guatemala, Congo, Paraguay, Haiti, El Salvador, and Bolivia have once persecuted Christians.

Before you find how these places have been horrible and intolerant to Christians, check the US record of foreign aid, and support for the ruling regime in each.

And then once you check this (which you wont) look back and see perhaps the reasons why these loving countries might be slightly intolerant to the loving Christian American Government.

 

[actsnoblemartin]

Let me respond point by point.

1. If you look historically, you will see that non-muslims living in muslim countries have lived as second class citizens for a very long time.

2. The united states is not doing anything in the name of christianity, please show me were any u.s. leader said, we are invading this country in the name of jesus and/or christianity.

3. Iran, Iraq, Indonesia has and have persecuted christians, Oh and will you please go over what exactly we did, and provide a link, thank you.


4. I dont agree, with u.s. aid, to any bad country, or proping up any regime that harms its own people. Historically or now.

5. 5. Please provide the links again, I know i have been very slow in seeing all the links you gave me, I have trouble reading long articles. I do try to listen to you, and i do respect you.

1. Please list the examples of how Christians are suffering from worldwide Christian pursecution. (muslim world)

2. Please show me where Christians are being occupied, slaughtered, or killed at will by anyone that the US doesnt or hasnt supported at some point.

3. Please give mean examples where Iran, Indonesia, Iraq, Dominican Republic, Guatemala, Congo, Paraguay, Haiti, El Salvador, and Bolivia have once persecuted Christians.

4. Before you find how these places have been horrible and intolerant to Christians, check the US record of foreign aid, and support for the ruling regime in each.


5. And then once you check this (which you wont) look back and see perhaps the reasons why these loving countries might be slightly intolerant to the loving Christian American Government.

 

[maineman]

The world is not suffering from a global christianity threat. While christians are suffering from worldwide christian pursecution. (muslim world)

I dont understand why you dont get that?

are you suggesting that Muslims worldwide want to persecute Christians?

The point was made that the Koran says some mean shit...and therefore, all the world's muslims buy into it all. I pointed out that the bible says some mean shit, but all the world's jews and christians don't buy into all of that.

 

[Paulie]

This is the absolute stupidest thread I've ever seen in my life.

 

[maineman]

Let me respond point by point.

1. If you look historically, you will see that non-muslims living in muslim countries have lived as second class citizens for a very long time.

2. The united states is not doing anything in the name of christianity, please show me were any u.s. leader said, we are invading this country in the name of jesus and/or christianity.

3. Iran, Iraq, Indonesia has and have persecuted christians, Oh and will you please go over what exactly we did, and provide a link, thank you.


4. I dont agree, with u.s. aid, to any bad country, or proping up any regime that harms its own people. Historically or now.

5. 5. Please provide the links again, I know i have been very slow in seeing all the links you gave me, I have trouble reading long articles. I do try to listen to you, and i do respect you.

1. Lebanon
2. a matter of perception. if you are a muslim and an army that is 90% christian invades your country, what would YOU think?

off the top of my head

 

[Superlative]

Let me respond point by point.

1. If you look historically, you will see that non-muslims living in muslim countries have lived as second class citizens for a very long time.

So does that make them Christian Persecutors? as you stated.

2. The united states is not doing anything in the name of christianity, please show me were any u.s. leader said, we are invading this country in the name of jesus and/or christianity.

It doesnt matter what you see, whats important is what the rest of the world see's they see a Rich White Christian American Spreading Democracy around the world with Missiles and Bullets.

And Bush has declared that the Evil will be sought out and destroyed, I dont want to be picky, but what is evil as tought to Americans growing up? the opposite of good? The Devil perhaps? what would Jesus recommend??

3. Iran, Iraq, Indonesia has and have persecuted christians, Oh and will you please go over what exactly we did, and provide a link, thank you.

Why should I do your homework? you'll just ask for the Cliffnotes and ignore them.

4. I dont agree, with u.s. aid, to any bad country, or proping up any regime that harms its own people. Historically or now.

Then you should agree with US Aid.

5. 5. Please provide the links again, I know i have been very slow in seeing all the links you gave me, I have trouble reading long articles. I do try to listen to you, and i do respect you.

Then you will do your part in researching and answering intelligently.

 

[Eightball]

Please list the examples of how Christians are suffering from worldwide Christian pursecution. (muslim world)

Please show me where Christians are being occupied, slaughtered, or killed at will by anyone that the US doesnt or hasnt supported at some point.

Please give mean examples where Iran, Indonesia, Iraq, Dominican Republic, Guatemala, Congo, Paraguay, Haiti, El Salvador, and Bolivia have once persecuted Christians.

Before you find how these places have been horrible and intolerant to Christians, check the US record of foreign aid, and support for the ruling regime in each.

And then once you check this (which you wont) look back and see perhaps the reasons why these loving countries might be slightly intolerant to the loving Christian American Government.

This is just a very small, small smidgeon of all the cases of present and at times very severe persecution thats happened or is ongoing in our modern, advanced, humane world.

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=5678&PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=5677&PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=5682&PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=5676&PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=5664&PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=5674&PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=5672&PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=5668&PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/country_info.php?PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

http://www.christianpersecution.info/

http://www.persecutionblog.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Muslim_persecution_of_Christians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Nazi-Fascist_persecution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#The_Dechristianization_program_during_the_French_Reign_of_Terror

http://www.allaboutfollowingjesus.org/christian-persecution.htm
*********
Just type in any respectable search engine, "Christian Persecution", and you will get nearly a Half million hits!!

Of course, it's all propaganda isn't it? Actually it's listed in the official human right's commissions documents, but easily or conveniently overlooked, as they are just "Christians", and they make us other folks uncomfortable with their "sin" stuff, and such.

*******

 

[actsnoblemartin]

Very good points, maineman , i dont dispute them. (im not being sarcastic)

1. Lebanon
2. a matter of perception. if you are a muslim and an army that is 90% christian invades your country, what would YOU think?

off the top of my head

 

[Vintij]

I had a question that maybe you guys can help me out with.

It relates to race.

My girlfriend and I got into a discussion (she is hispanic) because she wanted to get a housekeeper, and I said "Why so we can get our stuff stolen?".


She called me a racist against hispanics.

Do you think it is racist for me to be concerned about my valuables that I worked hard for, or do you think it is racist for her to assume I was even talking about hispanics at all. Which I was not. I was talking about any housekeeper with the capability of getting into our home without supervision.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I had a question that maybe you guys can help me out with.

It relates to race.

My girlfriend and I got into a discussion (she is hispanic) because she wanted to get a housekeeper, and I said "Why so we can get our stuff stolen?".


She called me a racist against hispanics.

Do you think it is racist for me to be concerned about my valuables that I worked hard for, or do you think it is racist for her to assume I was even talking about hispanics at all. Which I was not. I was talking about any housekeeper with the capability of getting into our home without supervision.

WHAT? Some of your own medicine? How does it feel to have someone make a claim that is patently false against you? Perhaps the next time you feel the need to do the same to someone else you can recall this incident?

As to Housekeepers, if you can afford one simply inventory things and check them now and again. If you get one through a reputable source the chances are they are not thieves. There should be agencies available that can provide a list of people that have worked previously in that line of work and or have done some background checks.

 

[Superlative]

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=5678&PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

"In at least one incident, an 11 year old boy was recently "Slaughtered" by Muslim Militants believed to be linked to 'al Qaeda in Iraq' group, who later "cooked" the child, several news reports said. His family was allegedly later invited to a "feast meal" where they were forced to eat the boy, reports said."

While there was NO immediate independant confirmation of THAT incident, church leaders have expressed concerns that militants use increasingly barbaric methods to drive out Christians from neighborhods in baghdad and other cities......

Bullshit.

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=5677&PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

The State does not accept the politicization of any religion or the establishment of political parties or other movements on the basis of religion. It is difficult for manifestations of xenophobia, religious discrimination and anti-Semitism to take root in our country. In this
connection, the Chief Rabbi of Kazakhstan Yeshaya Cohen has emphasized that “to date Kazakhstan remains the only republic to have emerged from the entire former Soviet Union that is free from wars and conflicts. Inter-ethnic and interconfessional relations are developing in a normal civilized manner in Kazakhstan”.
A legislative framework has been established in Kazakhstan to ensure equality of rights and freedoms of citizens regardless of their ethnic group or religious affiliation.

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=5682&PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

In October 2002 as part of the cessation of hostilities memorandum of understanding, both sides reiterated their commitment to allow unimpeded humanitarian access to all areas of Sudan. Overall, humanitarian access has improved and aid is now getting to some previously unreachable areas
http://www.state.gov/p/af/rls/fs/19936.htm

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=5676&PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

"Although no violence occured, there are concerns that their may be violent efforts to have the compound removed"

people protesting religion is not new in the US either.
http://www.ctlibrary.com/ct/2002/october7/10.17.html

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=5664&PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

Deputy Prime minister Najib Razek sparked a storm last week wen he declared that Muslim Malaysia was not secular but an islamic state that protects the religious rights of minority groups......

The controversy arose amid a recent string of religious disputes that have ended in favor of Muslims - Who comprise nearly 60 percent of the population - and strained ethnis relations in a multicultural nation, which has enjoyed peace for nearly four decades.

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=5674&PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

"We have an ambitious agenda with India. Our agenda is practical. It builds on a relationship that has never been better. India is a global leader, as well as a good friend. ... My trip will remind everybody about the strengthening of an important strategic partnership. We'll work together in practical ways to promote a hopeful future for citizens in both our nations."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/03/20060302-13.html

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=5672&PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

Her husbands name is K'pa Cin (Born 1965) who was imprisoned on November 16, 2006 at T 20 Prison for possessing a Cell Phone and for Contacting Degars in America.

Rmah H'Nher who was arrested and imprisoned for posession of a cell phone.

Kpa H'Plo Arrested for bing a House Church Christian who refused to join the Government sanctioned Church and for contacting the Montagnard Foundation.

U.S. assistance to Vietnam is designed to support Vietnam’s economic development, promote civil society & the rule of law, and mitigate problems challenging sustainable development such as HIV/AIDS, environmental degradation and avian influenza.
http://hanoi.usembassy.gov/overviewusavn.html

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/newssummpopup.php?newscode=5668&PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

http://www.persecution.org/suffering/country_info.php?PHPSESSID=fb787ce42544a0a0ebcd9dd17b06790d

http://www.christianpersecution.info/

http://www.persecutionblog.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Muslim_persecution_of_Christians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#Nazi-Fascist_persecution

These happened 100 years after the Salem Witch trials, so there not too relevent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians#The_Dechristianization_program_during_the_French_Reign_of_Terror

http://www.allaboutfollowingjesus.org/christian-persecution.htm
*********
Just type in any respectable search engine, "Christian Persecution", and you will get nearly a Half million hits!!

Of course, it's all propaganda isn't it? Actually it's listed in the official human right's commissions documents, but easily or conveniently overlooked, as they are just "Christians", and they make us other folks uncomfortable with their "sin" stuff, and such.

*******

Before you find how these places have been horrible and intolerant to Christians, check the US record of foreign aid, and support for the ruling regime in each.

Like I said originally, Find me places where Christian atrocities occur that the US doesnt aid the government and turn a blind eye to how they treat their peoples.

 

[Superlative]

A "Good" Muslim can NOT be a "Good" citizen of the US.
Can a rattlesnake make a good pet? Or a black widow? With the right precautions they can sort of.

WHAT? Some of your own medicine? How does it feel to have someone make a claim that is patently false against you? Perhaps the next time you feel the need to do the same to someone else you can recall this incident?

Hilarious.

Its like youre saying,

"Now you know whats its like when you drop broad, generalizing and innacurate statements and suffer the 'Liberal' backlash"

 

[Superlative]

1. Lebanon
2. a matter of perception. if you are a muslim and an army that is 90% christian invades your country, what would YOU think?

off the top of my head

......Others have been attacked because of a widespread belief that Christians are abetting the occupation.

http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp08092004.html

 

[Chips Rafferty]

I think you miss the point. The bible doesn't not encourage blowing up government buildings, in fact Paul the apostle encouraged Christians to respect the government authorities over them and to see them as their protectors.

Also this did not mean that Paul propogated the adherence or devotion to governments or entities of that government that ethically or morally violated God's laws.

Do we have wide scale bombing of planned parenthood clinics, or killing of their personel? Why, cause the biblical God says that it's murder.

Many a biblical Christian joined the 6 million Jews, Gypsies, retarded, mentally ill, etc. in the Nazi death camps.

Corey Tanbaum a biblical Christian as well as her sister spent years in Nazi concentration camps because they hid Jews from the Nazis. I don't remember any notable Muslims doing likewise for their Christian or Jewish counterparts?

Islam, says that their belief system and adherence supercedes any and all governmental authority, unless it's based on Islamic principles, not necessarily moral, or humanitarian principles.

This means that if and when there is a large enough populous within a "said" country of Islamic adherents, then they have the right via the Koran to change even a Democratically formed government into an Islamic Theocracy.

Say all you want about the dangerous Pat Robertson and the now dead Jerry Falwell, their only desire was that their country embrace Christian principles that enhanced democracy, liberty, and fairness to all human beings, unborn and born alike.

It is Christian based cultures that have brought about equality of races, and sexes, as no other cultures have.

The Koran still sees the female human as chattle, and non-Muslims as potential enemies, and basically worthless in the eyes of their god/Allah.
***
When you defend yourself by saying I know many good Muslims, actually your mis-titleing them. They are good people, but not good Muslims, and in order to be good and humanitarian, and tolerant, they must throw aside the main thrust of Mohammed's teachings, that is their "truth". So in a sense, good Muslims as we see them in the U.S. or in any part of the world where they are basically tolerating the rest of us, is actually an act of hypocrisy on their part. Just wait until there is a majority of Muslims in any countyr, and you will see a diminishing of the moderate or P.C. or tolerant, or good Muslim according to your liberal, sensitive, parameters, and philosophy of life and fair-play.
*****
Now bring on the hate stuff, the name calling, the intolerance accusations. It's expected.

Truth hurts, denial hurts worse in the end.

When you defend yourself by saying I know many good Muslims, actually your mis-titleing them. They are good people, but not good Muslims, and in order to be good and humanitarian, and tolerant, they must throw aside the main thrust of Mohammed's teachings, that is their "truth".

No wonder all you cringing WASP creeps here are anonymous. You're shit-frightened of repercussions because of your rabid religious rants!

This mealy-mouthed maggot especially knocks up unconsciously dropping his Nazi handcuffs while trying to play the l-Love-My-Neighbour, Goodie-Two-Shoes Christian.

Christ Unsightly! Who wouldn't question the sincerity of this affectatious turdburger, when he even thinks he is conning his supposed UNCONDITIONALLY LOVING God with his retch-inducing, patently plastic personality?

I hope some equally religiously insane Islamist reads this, finds out where this spineless Proddie prick lives, and pays him a visit.

I'd love to see him sucking a big Arab Zubrick, with it's scabby balls stinking of camel shit, while (much muffled) pleading for his worthless life.

 

[Vintij]

No wonder all you cringing WASP creeps here are anonymous. You're shit-frightened of repercussions because of your rabid religious rants!

This mealy-mouthed maggot especially knocks up unconsciously dropping his Nazi handcuffs while trying to play the l-Love-My-Neighbour, Goodie-Two-Shoes Christian.

Christ Unsightly! Who wouldn't question the sincerity of this affectatious turdburger, when he even thinks he is conning his supposed UNCONDITIONALLY LOVING God with his retch-inducing, patently plastic personality?

I hope some equally religiously insane Islamist reads this, finds out where this spineless Proddie prick lives, and pays him a visit.

I'd love to see him sucking a big Arab Zubrick, with it's scabby balls stinking of camel shit, while (much muffled) pleading for his worthless life.

I agree with chips here. The god described by you christians, is a bit of a malignantly self indulged cosmic bully. One who cares more about human sacrifice and worship than anything else? If I was omnipotent, I would not give a shit what tiny little humans think or do. We are like roaches compared to the size and complexity of the universe.

Eightball must have forgot the HISTORY of christianity, as well as other nations that are christian dominated besides the US.

There is so much Christian terrorism in indea with over 20 different religious/ethnic cleansing groups who parade around and force christianity on indian civilians. Just because its not happening as much In the United States does not mean its not happening. So many people are too focused on the US, as if the united state is the first and only nation ever founded on christianity. Its ignorant.

Second, look at the history of christianity. The crusades, the reformation, the spanish inquisition. All very genocidal and violent wars in the name of the bible and christianity. Try sharing your opinion about anything, back then eightball or chips.