Bay News 9 Fibs, Says Social Security Is Not A Ponzi Scheme

[Disir]

I don't think that you understand. The money didn't actually move from the trust fund into the general fund in the way that you think.

Two: Here is your confusion=
In the early 1980s the Social Security Trust Funds had developed short-term cash flow problems, as a result of the adverse performance of the economy during the "stagflation" of the 1970s. As a stop-gap measure, Congress passed legislation in 1981 to permit inter-fund borrowing among the three Trust Funds (the Old-Age and Survivors Trust Fund; the Disability Trust Fund; and the Medicare Trust Fund). This authority was to lapse at the end of 1982. However, the 1983 Amendments extended the inter-fund borrowing authority to the end of 1987. Under the law as amended, all loans would have to be repaid by the end of 1989.

The inter-fund loans were required to be repaid with an amount of interest equal to that which the loaning fund would have earned had it had use of the money during this time. In other words, the borrowing fund was required to make the loaning fund whole at the end of the process.

This authority was used twice, once in November 1982 and once in December 1982. The total amount borrowed was $17.5 billion. The Old-Age and Survivors Trust Fund borrowed the money-$5.1 billion from the Disability Trust Fund and $12.4 billion from the Medicare Trust Fund. Repayment began in 1985 and the debt to the Medicare Trust Fund was paid off by January 1986 and the debt to the Disability Trust Fund was liquidated in April 1986.
http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v46n9/v46n9p13.pdf

This is from 1983-Note that there are four funds listed here and why,
http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/ssb/v46n9/v46n9p13.pdf

Ok?
OK.

Payroll taxes include the Social Security tax and the Medicare tax. Social Security taxes provide benefits for retired workers, the disabled, and the dependents of both. The Medicare tax is used to provide medical benefits for certain individuals when they reach age 65. Workers, retired workers, and the spouses of both are eligible to receive Medicare benefits upon reaching age 65. Federal income taxes are used to provide for national programs such as national defense; veterans and foreign affairs; social programs; physical, human, and community development; law enforcement; and interest on the national debt.
Understanding Taxes - Module 1 Payroll Taxes and Federal Income Tax Withholding

Since the beginning of the Social Security program, all securities held by the trust funds have been issued by the Federal Government.
There are two general types of such securities:

1. special issues—securities available only to the trust funds; and
2. public issues—securities available to the public (marketable securities).

Today all securities held by the trust funds are special issues, but the funds have held public issues in the past.
Special issue types and properties
There are two types of special issues: short-term certificates of indebtedness and long-term bonds.

• The certificates of indebtedness are issued on a daily basis for the investment of receipts not required to meet current expenditures, and they mature on the next June 30 following the date of issue.
• Special-issue bonds are normally acquired only when special issues of either type mature on June 30. The bonds have maturities ranging from one to fifteen years.

The above properties of special issue securities are summarized in the following table.

Type of special issue	Investment frequency	Maturity
Certificates of indebtedness	Daily	Next June 30
Bonds	June 30	1 to 15 years

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Special issue redemption rules
When special issues need to be redeemed prior to maturity, the securities are redeemed in order of

1. Earliest maturity date;
2. Lowest interest rate for securities with the same maturity date.

Special-issue securities Social Security trust funds

From the Social Security's web site
Social Security History
The law was changed to stop the use of the Trust Funds for any function in the unified budget, including calculations of the deficit. One sub-part of OBRA 1990 was called the Budget Enforcement Act (BEA), and it was this sub-part that specified this change in the law.

Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (OBRA) of 1990
Bill Text - 101st Congress 1989-1990 - THOMAS Library of Congress
EXCLUSION OF SOCIAL SECURITY FROM ALL BUDGETS-

• 
  Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the receipts and disbursements of the Federal Old-Age and Survivors Insurance Trust Fund and the Federal Disability Insurance Trust Fund shall not be counted as new budget authority, outlays, receipts, or deficit or surplus for purposes of--

• • 
    (1) the budget of the United States Government as submitted by the President,

• • 
    (2) the congressional budget, or

• • 
    (3) the Balanced Budget and Emergency Deficit Control Act of 1985.

• 
  (b) EXCLUSION OF SOCIAL SECURITY FROM CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET- Section 301(a) of the Congressional Budget Act of 1974 is amended by adding at the end the following: `The concurrent resolution shall not include the outlays and revenue totals of the old age, survivors, and disability insurance program established under title II of the Social Security Act or the related provisions of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 in the surplus or deficit totals required by this subsection or in any other surplus or deficit totals required by this title.'.

It means precisely what I said it did.

You evidently didn't understand it.

I understand it just fine.

So then you agree that Dem's moved the SSI funds to the unified budget to pay for other programs.

No. My stance has not changed. You can dress this up but it does not alter anything that I have said. In fact, I should have called you on this before. In post #55 you copied word for word from this link here:
Social Security money stolen by government The PPJ Gazette

Then you handed me his resources without having read that before.

I pointed out where the confusion points are. My stance has not changed. Now, simply because you insist the exact same thing that you did before does not change anything.

 

[peach174]

From the Social Security's web site
Social Security History
The law was changed to stop the use of the Trust Funds for any function in the unified budget, including calculations of the deficit. One sub-part of OBRA 1990 was called the Budget Enforcement Act (BEA), and it was this sub-part that specified this change in the law.

Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (OBRA) of 1990
Bill Text - 101st Congress 1989-1990 - THOMAS Library of Congress
EXCLUSION OF SOCIAL SECURITY FROM ALL BUDGETS-

• 
  Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the receipts and disbursements of the Federal Old-Age and Survivors Insurance Trust Fund and the Federal Disability Insurance Trust Fund shall not be counted as new budget authority, outlays, receipts, or deficit or surplus for purposes of--

• • 
    (1) the budget of the United States Government as submitted by the President,

• • 
    (2) the congressional budget, or

• • 
    (3) the Balanced Budget and Emergency Deficit Control Act of 1985.

• 
  (b) EXCLUSION OF SOCIAL SECURITY FROM CONGRESSIONAL BUDGET- Section 301(a) of the Congressional Budget Act of 1974 is amended by adding at the end the following: `The concurrent resolution shall not include the outlays and revenue totals of the old age, survivors, and disability insurance program established under title II of the Social Security Act or the related provisions of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 in the surplus or deficit totals required by this subsection or in any other surplus or deficit totals required by this title.'.

It means precisely what I said it did.

You evidently didn't understand it.

I understand it just fine.

So then you agree that Dem's moved the SSI funds to the unified budget to pay for other programs.

No. My stance has not changed. You can dress this up but it does not alter anything that I have said. In fact, I should have called you on this before. In post #55 you copied word for word from this link here:
Social Security money stolen by government The PPJ Gazette

Then you handed me his resources without having read that before.

I pointed out where the confusion points are. My stance has not changed. Now, simply because you insist the exact same thing that you did before does not change anything.

Yes I did. Sorry I thought I had put up the web site.
Allen W. Smith is a Professor of Economics, Emeritus, at Eastern Illinois University. He understands it perfectly. You do not.
I did not use his resources.
I used the actual Social Web site and the actual bill passed by congress that stopped the robbing of the SSI fund.
You are ignoring that bill.

 

[Disir]

It means precisely what I said it did.

You evidently didn't understand it.

I understand it just fine.

So then you agree that Dem's moved the SSI funds to the unified budget to pay for other programs.

No. My stance has not changed. You can dress this up but it does not alter anything that I have said. In fact, I should have called you on this before. In post #55 you copied word for word from this link here:
Social Security money stolen by government The PPJ Gazette

Then you handed me his resources without having read that before.

I pointed out where the confusion points are. My stance has not changed. Now, simply because you insist the exact same thing that you did before does not change anything.

Yes I did. Sorry I thought I had put up the web site.
Allen W. Smith is a Professor of Economics, Emeritus, at Eastern Illinois University. He understands it perfectly. You do not.
I did not use his resources.
I used the actual Social Web site and the actual bill passed by congress that stopped the robbing of the SSI fund.

We're good.



He cited several items as his source and so then did you. I am not so sure you're really familiar with this guy as he flat out puts the blame on Reagan and, further, Republicans. Although, I suspect you think that the democrats are liberal and I keep saying (elsewhere) they are really right wing as evidenced by Obama trying to chain SS to CPI among other things. I think there is even more confusion as Social Security is NOT the same as Social Security Disability program. Anyhoo, the question is what is his agenda or what does he want. The answer is public issue securities.

Hence the reason that I listed the information before trying to clear up points of confusion. Again, it was never included in the general fund in the manner that you seem to think. The Trust Fund did not operate any differently than it did before. The loans that were made between the three programs are what ended-and which I posted earlier. It was never a major secret.

 

[peach174]

You evidently didn't understand it.

I understand it just fine.

So then you agree that Dem's moved the SSI funds to the unified budget to pay for other programs.

No. My stance has not changed. You can dress this up but it does not alter anything that I have said. In fact, I should have called you on this before. In post #55 you copied word for word from this link here:
Social Security money stolen by government The PPJ Gazette

Then you handed me his resources without having read that before.

I pointed out where the confusion points are. My stance has not changed. Now, simply because you insist the exact same thing that you did before does not change anything.

Yes I did. Sorry I thought I had put up the web site.
Allen W. Smith is a Professor of Economics, Emeritus, at Eastern Illinois University. He understands it perfectly. You do not.
I did not use his resources.
I used the actual Social Web site and the actual bill passed by congress that stopped the robbing of the SSI fund.

We're good.



He cited several items as his source and so then did you. I am not so sure you're really familiar with this guy as he flat out puts the blame on Reagan and, further, Republicans. Although, I suspect you think that the democrats are liberal and I keep saying (elsewhere) they are really right wing as evidenced by Obama trying to chain SS to CPI among other things. I think there is even more confusion as Social Security is NOT the same as Social Security Disability program. Anyhoo, the question is what is his agenda or what does he want. The answer is public issue securities.

Hence the reason that I listed the information before trying to clear up points of confusion. Again, it was never included in the general fund in the manner that you seem to think. The Trust Fund did not operate any differently than it did before. The loans that were made between the three programs are what ended-and which I posted earlier. It was never a major secret.

Nobody ever said that is was a major secret that I know of.
I blame both parties for using the SSI funds.
I do not think that all Dems are liberal. I have said in other discussions in this forum that conservative Dems have been declining for the last 20 or so years and moderates in the last 3 years.
I am also agreeing with you, that the way the trust fund was set up and has been operated has not changed.
From the very start of the SSI program congress can and does borrow from that fund. It was the Dems who started the program and it was the Dems who started borrowing from the funds beginning in 1958 and continue to this very day and the Republicans have also borrowed from it. Neither party has actually done anything to change the way the program should work for us the people rather than for the government who can borrow the funding. That is until Ryan's Bill which the Dems as well as some Repubs hated. It took their control out of it and put it in the hands of the individuals. Which I think it should be. That way congress can not use it for any reason it becomes ours and not theirs.

Social Security Ran 47.8B Deficit in FY 2012 Disabled Workers Hit New Record in December 8 827 795 CNS News
As of the end of calendar year 2011, according to SSA, the Social Security Trust Fund equaled approximately $2.678 trillion.
The last time the Social Security program ran a “net cash flow” surplus was in fiscal 2009. In that year, Social Security’s revenues exceeded its benefit and overhead payments by $19.358 billion. In fiscal 2010, Social Security ran a $36.8 billion deficit; and, in fiscal 2011, it ran a $47.975 deficit.
There are two Social Security Trust Funds: the Old Age and Survivors Insurance Trust Fund and the Disability Insurance Trust Fund. The OASI Trust Fund covers benefits to retired workers and their families and deceased workers families. The DI Trust fund covers benefits to disabled workers and their families. The trust funds are required by law to hand over all surplus revenues to the Treasury and the Treasury then provides “special issue” non-marketable bonds—essentially electronic IOUs—to the trust funds in return for the cash. These "IOUs" become part of the national debt. When the Treasury pays "interest" that increases the value of the Social Security Trust Funds it does so by increasing the number of IOUs it owes the trust funds.

U. S. Budget Economy Productivity Taxes National Debt

The SSI chart shows over 850 billion is being paid out in the SSI programs.
Something needs to be done to change that and the Democrats refuse to try and do something about it.
Unless you know of some bill that they have done that I might have missed.

Fact -
As of 10 August 2010, more benefit money is going out than coming into the trust fund.
It depends on your point of view and how you look at it, as to how the money was used.
Everyone has their own points of views and none of us are going to be able to change that. It is our right as Americans to have the different points of views, but The fact is something has to change to keep the SSI programs solvent Ponzi scheme or not it has to have something done to fix it and only one republican proposed something while the rest has done nothing.

A Social Security Program Debate