Assault on Waco

[gipper]

Is it any wonder America has become a police state with so many Americans finding nothing wrong with the governments wanton murder of innocent citizens at Waco?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Ruby Ridge and Waco are the reasons that Amercans can NEVER, EVER allow second amendment rights to be infringed. The United States government is willing and able to murder American citizens - hell, Obama revels in it.

Americans MUST be armed and ready to resist.

 

[gipper]

Ruby Ridge and Waco are the reasons that Amercans can NEVER, EVER allow second amendment rights to be infringed. The United States government is willing and able to murder American citizens - hell, Obama revels in it.

Americans MUST be armed and ready to resist.

Agreed. Too bad many on the Left are incapable of understanding this simple thing.

We are rapidly coming apart as a nation. We no longer have common values. I have nothing common with these foolish Leftists who gladly ignore the Constitution and willingly give up their rights to a state becoming more and more tyrannical.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Yeah, really peaceful. They shot and killed four ATF agents....

What was that about giving pause again?

As well they should have. The BATF were home invasion robbers with the express intent of murdering the occupants of the compound. The Davidians did what EVERY American should do in that situation, they shot back at armed criminals who had violent intentions. The BATF were the criminals.

Oh and Gump, I have no love for the Davidians, they were complete freaks.

 

[Uncensored2008]

The ATF had a search warrant..

Which they did not serve, but instead engaged in a military assault. The BATF were a criminal gang seeking to murder American citizens. The only shame is that any of the attacking BATF scum survived.

 

[westwall]

[

Untrue. There were multiple sources that state the ATF fired first when they shot the dogs near the front door. Then when Koresh opened the door someone shot him through the door. That's why the door disappeared after the final assault. It would have shown that those claims were accurate.

The fact remains, 21 children and 4 agents were killed because some bureaucrat in the ATF office in Texas wanted to make a name for themselves and justify their budget.

That is shameful, and to hear people like you, who I believe to be educated and thoughtful, blissfully ignore well founded evidence is disappointing.

I don't know how finding a door would explain anything to be honest. You can't tell by a door who shot what first.

See, that might be the case but we don't know about some 'bureaucrat' from the ATF in Texas wanting to make a name for themselves. They thought the kids and other lives might be in danger.

I think it shameful that not once has anybody on this thread who is blaming the govt has mentioned what a douche Koresh was, and none of you guys seem to be attributing any blame in his direction. It's the "big bad govts" fault...Phooey...

Then you havn't read my posts...I denounced him quite soundly in my first post. He was an asshat of the first order and he deserved what happened...to him. 21 innocent children were killed by the government to make a point.

How can you possibly think that that is OK?

 

[westwall]

Who cares. Give them 120 days. Eventually they run out of food and water and voila, the siege ends peacefully. There is simply no justification for the killing of 21 innocent children...none. It is the same as saying "well those darned kids in that school shouldn't have been there.....it's their fault for being there."

Just like those poor kids didn't have a choice, neither did the kids in Texas. Their fucked up parents put them into that situation...but the government DID have a choice. It didn't have to push in there like they did...they could have waited...what would have been the issue? Insolent behavior and felony stupid? Plus a little contempt of cop thrown in? Big deal. That's what the police are paid for.

They are not paid to kill 21 children to make a point about the "rule of law". The "rule of law" is mandated to SAVE children like that.....not incinerate them.

Not if they thought peoples' lives were in imminent danger. Things change over the course of a seige. Why couldn't he just lay down his arms? Take it from there.

You assume they are responsible for their deaths. They are not. Koresh was.

And what would have happened if they had waited it out and they had committed suicide or been shot to death by hardcore Davidians...

This guy was a mental case. End of story.

No ones life was in immediate danger...till the government started killing them. Had the government not attacked those children would still be alive. Yes, the government would have had to wait for a few more weeks, so what.

 

[westwall]

Ruby Ridge and Waco are the reasons that Amercans can NEVER, EVER allow second amendment rights to be infringed. The United States government is willing and able to murder American citizens - hell, Obama revels in it.

Americans MUST be armed and ready to resist.

Agreed. Too bad many on the Left are incapable of understanding this simple thing.

We are rapidly coming apart as a nation. We no longer have common values. I have nothing common with these foolish Leftists who gladly ignore the Constitution and willingly give up their rights to a state becoming more and more tyrannical.

Only in your unhinged, govt-hating mind. I just don't understand why all you guys who think like you do, all move to a state and vote in people who think like you. Then you can all live in your little piece of Nirvana. I think somebody was trying that in New Hampshire....

Ruby Ridge and Waco are examples of nitwits who think they are above the law of the land. Unfortunately it gives gun nuts and extreme right-wing loons the ammunition they need to get across their POV. And let's not forget Timothy McVeigh was on your side of the equation. What a nice guy he turned out to be. Plenty of kids killed in Oklahoma too....

Then I suggest you learn more about Ruby Ridge. Weaver was a numbskull but the government was complicit in the deaths there. That's why after Gerry Spence demolished the prosecutions case he didn't even bother to present a defence case. It was so clear, to everyone, that the government had acted illegally that the jury found Weaver innocent of all the major charges.

 

[westwall]

Yeah, really peaceful. They shot and killed four ATF agents....

What was that about giving pause again?

As well they should have. The BATF were home invasion robbers with the express intent of murdering the occupants of the compound. The Davidians did what EVERY American should do in that situation, they shot back at armed criminals who had violent intentions. The BATF were the criminals.

Oh and Gump, I have no love for the Davidians, they were complete freaks.

The ATF had a search warrant..

So did the Gestapo...doesn't make it right. Also they didn't bother to bring it with them so they were in violation of both Federal and State law, and the warrant lists not one item that is illegal. Not one. I have a copy of the warrant and it is a complete joke.

 

[westwall]

The ATF had a search warrant..

Which they did not serve, but instead engaged in a military assault. The BATF were a criminal gang seeking to murder American citizens. The only shame is that any of the attacking BATF scum survived.

They tried to serve it, but were shot at....four people died.

Look up the names of the ATF agents that were killed. Then go visit their families and say what you have just said here. You'll be eating through a straw for a couple of months, or in traction for six....

They couldn't serve it because they didn't have it with them.

 

[westwall]

Then you havn't read my posts...I denounced him quite soundly in my first post. He was an asshat of the first order and he deserved what happened...to him. 21 innocent children were killed by the government to make a point.

How can you possibly think that that is OK?

I don't think it was OK. We are trying to apportion blame here. You give it to the govt, I put the majority of it at Koresh's feet.

This goes back to my first post on this issue. You guys get so caught up in your rights, that common sense goes out the window. Yes, your Constitution and its amendments are sacrosanct. I get that. But if you, or anybody like you, thinks it is being abused, you can do something about it. You don't go around shooting at officers of the law.

Here we are in primary agreement, however the government NEVER has the right to take innocent lives. The government had no compelling need to assault them...period. They did it to make a point and to save the children they killed them....all of them.

Do you not see how ridiculous your position is?

 

[MikeK]

But that wasn't the case was it? I don't do woulda, coulda, shoulda. It's not like he was given 24 hours. he got 51 days...

It is precisely the case, with one exception; the Davidians were not murderous bank robbers. They were peaceful, law-abiding citizens who had harmed no one.

The fact that you cannot answer the question I posed should give you pause to think about the hollow nature of your argument.

Yeah, really peaceful. They shot and killed four ATF agents....

What was that about giving pause again?

They shot and killed four heavily armed men who were trying to break into their residence. While you might assign god-like authority to badges and uniforms the Davidians did not. Nor does the state of Texas, which is why eleven surviving Davidians were acquitted of murder charges by a Texas jury.

No forcible entry warrant had been presented. ATF could not respond to questioning about specifically which agent had presented a warrant. ATF could not even specify which of their agents held possession of the warrant. The probable reason for this obscuration is it has been determined the warrant was defective because it contained false and irrelevant information, such as charges of drug manufacturing and child molestation, neither of which are within the purview of ATF's area of authority, both of which had already been investigated and determined to be unfounded. In spite of all this obvious wrongdoing the only corrective action taken is two AFT agents were suspended -- and both were quietly reinstated two months later and awarded all back pay.

(Excerpt)

In 1994, two ATF supervisory agents, Phillip J. Chojnacki and Charles D. Sarabyn, who were suspended for their roles in leading the Waco raid were reinstated in December 1994, with full back pay and benefits (with a demotion) despite a Treasury Department report of gross negligence. The incident was removed from their personnel files.[23]

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In Texas, a defective warrant is invalid. It's basically the same as no warrant. For that reason, and in accordance with Texas Penal Law (Sec 9.31), the Davidians had a right to refuse entry to ATF and defend themselves against those raiders with an equal degree of the threatened level of force. So in the final analysis the federal government acted with the presumption that it has the authority to conduct paramilitary raids on the residence of any citizen it chooses to at will and without strict and specific justification. Is that what you mean by "the rule of law?" http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/9.31.00.html

 

[MikeK]

So did the Gestapo...doesn't make it right. Also they didn't bother to bring it with them so they were in violation of both Federal and State law, and the warrant lists not one item that is illegal. Not one. I have a copy of the warrant and it is a complete joke.

Yes, it does make it right if it was signed by a judge or JP or whoever has the authority to sign one.

Yes, they should have brought it with them.

And if you last point is true - doesn't list one item that is illegal - then, again, you let them execute it, then sue the crap out of them.

Some people would rather resist. And if they have a legal right to resist, why shouldn't they?

It wasn't the Davidians who were wrong. Yet you, and others who think like you, stand against them. In doing so you stand against yourself, which is what we are trying to help you undersand. The Davidians rights are your rights.

 

[westwall]

So did the Gestapo...doesn't make it right. Also they didn't bother to bring it with them so they were in violation of both Federal and State law, and the warrant lists not one item that is illegal. Not one. I have a copy of the warrant and it is a complete joke.

Yes, it does make it right if it was signed by a judge or JP or whoever has the authority to sign one.

Yes, they should have brought it with them.

And if you last point is true - doesn't list one item that is illegal - then, again, you let them execute it, then sue the crap out of them.

You see there is a diiference between what is moral and ethical. What the Gestapo did was totally moral...for them, however the rest of the free world condemns their actions because while they might have been legal they were far, far from ethical.

The same rule applys here. The faulty and completely missing warrant MAKES the ATF initial attack ILLEGAL. By both state and FEDERAL law. The Davidians were completely within their right to protect themselves. That's what is so fucked up about the whole thing.

The four agents who died, did so needlessly, and in violation of the very laws they swore an oath to uphold and protect.

We weren't there so we don't know what the initial attack comprised (thanks to that aforementioned missing door, and yes forensic scientists can glean a great deal of information from that missing door if only it could be found) but, if the ATF shot first then the Davidians are rightfully in fear for their lives and they responded accordingly.

It speaks volumnes that only four agents were killed. They were outnumbered and many of the Davidians were prior military so would have had no problem killing many, many more. There is footage of agents in the front driveway of the compound totally exposed so that tells me the Davidians were not shooting outside. I don't know for certain but I believe the agents were killed inside the building, those outside were left comparitively alone.

That too serves to verify that it was the ATF who fired first and the Davidians were only defending themselves.

 

[westwall]

Here we are in primary agreement, however the government NEVER has the right to take innocent lives. The government had no compelling need to assault them...period. They did it to make a point and to save the children they killed them....all of them.

Do you not see how ridiculous your position is?

But to be fair, your position is brought about with the advent of hindsight. If the agents, or those in charge, thought 21 kids would have died, I would imagine they would have rethought their position. This is why I don't do woulda, shoulda, coulda. I was a cop many years ago in NZ. I have been in many situations whereby you would have done things different, but in real time, it's a whole different story. It's easy to use hindsight. I have been in a court room, where a defense and prosecutor cross examined a witness for just over 3 hours between them over an incident that took just under 10 seconds to occur in real life. Oh, if only she had had three hours to make a decision that was instantaneous in real life...

In a quick reaction situation I am in firm agreement with you. The final assault was a very well planned, slow and methodical operation. The injection of the massive amounts of CS was known to be a serious fire hazard. The knocking of holes in the walls of the main building would serve to create a draft that would feed the fire and lead to a flashover...all of these things are known, and known well...

Why then did the FBI do everything that they possibly could to ensure that there would be a firestorm? Why was there no effort whatsoever to reduce the chances of the ensuing fire....not one thing?

 

[whitehall]

It seems the Feds ran up on the compound in a civilian vehicle wearing camouflage and brandishing guns and they were surprised that the Dividians decided to defend themselves. The feds had the Dividian compound surrounded but they never offered legal advice to the people inside. Koresch and others were wounded but the Feds never offered medical assistance. CS gas is toxic at the amount they pumped into the structures but it seems that no consideration was given to the women and children who for all the Feds knew were held against their will. When it was all over the Feds never made an effort to justify the allegations in the initial search warrant. There were no illegal weapons in the "compound". Reno "took responsibility" but in political speech "taking responsibility" means not taking responsibility. After a day or two the Bubba took time from his sodomy schedule in the WH and also took responsibility. Meanwhile the Feds had no idea that the same gang that tried to blow up the WTC were planning an even bigger attempt. Quirky Christians were the new enemy and the Feds had no time for the jihad.

 

[whitehall]

You see there is a diiference between what is moral and ethical. What the Gestapo did was totally moral...for them, however the rest of the free world condemns their actions because while they might have been legal they were far, far from ethical.

The same rule applys here. The faulty and completely missing warrant MAKES the ATF initial attack ILLEGAL. By both state and FEDERAL law. The Davidians were completely within their right to protect themselves. That's what is so fucked up about the whole thing.

The four agents who died, did so needlessly, and in violation of the very laws they swore an oath to uphold and protect.

We weren't there so we don't know what the initial attack comprised (thanks to that aforementioned missing door, and yes forensic scientists can glean a great deal of information from that missing door if only it could be found) but, if the ATF shot first then the Davidians are rightfully in fear for their lives and they responded accordingly.

It speaks volumnes that only four agents were killed. They were outnumbered and many of the Davidians were prior military so would have had no problem killing many, many more. There is footage of agents in the front driveway of the compound totally exposed so that tells me the Davidians were not shooting outside. I don't know for certain but I believe the agents were killed inside the building, those outside were left comparitively alone.

That too serves to verify that it was the ATF who fired first and the Davidians were only defending themselves.

It doesn't help when you bring the Gestapo into the argument. All it does is make your argument emotive. ATF agents - the vast majority of them - are there to serve their country in an even manner. The Gestapo were a secret police organisation that arrested, imprisoned and killed anybody who went against Hitler's Nazi govt. They were also duplicious in rounding up Jews and sending them to concentration camps.

Maybe the talking heads the top of the ATF knew the warrant didn't fit the criteria, but Joe Blow ATF agent didn't. And how did the Davidians know the warrant was bogus, when they didn't even get to set it because they opened fire.

There are a couple of suppositions in this post and subsequent ones. Finding a door with bullet holes in it won't tell you much other than the calibre of the bullet that hit the door. If there are bullets from Davidians or the ATF, you will never find out who shot first. Second, you are supposing that because some of those agents were not shot out in the open that the Davidians never shot at them. You don't know that. They might have been preoccupied with those agents trying to enter the complex.

The obvious thing would be to approach the compound with a flag of truce, offer medical attention to the injured and have a face to face including legal council. There is no evidence that the Feds tried that avenue or maybe they would have approached Koresch in the 7-11. The Feds were itching for a fight and they were pissed. We all should know by now that government hearings concerning alleged government atrocities aren't about finding the truth. They are exercises in CYA. We used to rely on the media to monitor government abuse but when they become the propaganda arm of the government there is no pressure to get to the truth, only propaganda. Recently a combat Marine was dragged trough the media slime and court martialed for pissing on an enemy corpse. Imagine of he was involved in the incineration of 80 civilians.

 

[westwall]

You see there is a diiference between what is moral and ethical. What the Gestapo did was totally moral...for them, however the rest of the free world condemns their actions because while they might have been legal they were far, far from ethical.

The same rule applys here. The faulty and completely missing warrant MAKES the ATF initial attack ILLEGAL. By both state and FEDERAL law. The Davidians were completely within their right to protect themselves. That's what is so fucked up about the whole thing.

The four agents who died, did so needlessly, and in violation of the very laws they swore an oath to uphold and protect.

We weren't there so we don't know what the initial attack comprised (thanks to that aforementioned missing door, and yes forensic scientists can glean a great deal of information from that missing door if only it could be found) but, if the ATF shot first then the Davidians are rightfully in fear for their lives and they responded accordingly.

It speaks volumnes that only four agents were killed. They were outnumbered and many of the Davidians were prior military so would have had no problem killing many, many more. There is footage of agents in the front driveway of the compound totally exposed so that tells me the Davidians were not shooting outside. I don't know for certain but I believe the agents were killed inside the building, those outside were left comparitively alone.

That too serves to verify that it was the ATF who fired first and the Davidians were only defending themselves.

It doesn't help when you bring the Gestapo into the argument. All it does is make your argument emotive. ATF agents - the vast majority of them - are there to serve their country in an even manner. The Gestapo were a secret police organisation that arrested, imprisoned and killed anybody who went against Hitler's Nazi govt. They were also duplicious in rounding up Jews and sending them to concentration camps.

Maybe the talking heads the top of the ATF knew the warrant didn't fit the criteria, but Joe Blow ATF agent didn't. And how did the Davidians know the warrant was bogus, when they didn't even get to set it because they opened fire.

There are a couple of suppositions in this post and subsequent ones. Finding a door with bullet holes in it won't tell you much other than the calibre of the bullet that hit the door. If there are bullets from Davidians or the ATF, you will never find out who shot first. Second, you are supposing that because some of those agents were not shot out in the open that the Davidians never shot at them. You don't know that. They might have been preoccupied with those agents trying to enter the complex.

Untrue. When the behavior or the description fits you use it. Those who continually invoke that "rule" do so because they are trying deflect the issue and they have no reasonable response so they attempt to shut down the discussion.

The Nazi's did the exact same thing, just on a larger scale. I suggest you read "The Nazi Seizure of Power" by William Sheridan Allen. It is quite illustrating.

All of that aside, it doesn't matter what Joe Blow ATF agent on the ground knew or didn't know. THEIR bosses DID know and allowed the raid to continue anyway. Had there been a legit AG, they would have been indicted for criminally negligent homicide at the least. The door would tell you if the agents shot through it as it was being opened (which was claimed by the Davidians) or if they didn't.

 

[gipper]

Waco is but one event that proves the tyranny potential of the state. And yet, many Americans are advocates of gun control and even confiscation, whereby law abiding citizens are FORCED by the very same state that has a history of murdering its own citizens, to give up their right of self defense. How can they be so blind to the dangers of the all powerful state and willingly give up their rights?

 

[Uncensored2008]

They tried to serve it, but were shot at....four people died.

They didn't try to serve it, they went in guns blazing, killed 3 dogs and shot two men, who later died. So 6 people died in the initial assault, 4 of the home invasion murderers and 2 Davidians.

Look up the names of the ATF agents that were killed. Then go visit their families and say what you have just said here. You'll be eating through a straw for a couple of months, or in traction for six....

Look up the names of the children that were murdered by the BATF and FBI. Then go visit their families and say what you have just said here. You'll be eating through a straw for a couple of months, or in traction for six...