Assault on Waco

[Uncensored2008]

No ones life was in immediate danger...till the government started killing them. Had the government not attacked those children would still be alive. Yes, the government would have had to wait for a few more weeks, so what.

Over the two year period prior to the murders, David Koresh had been brought into questioning on three occasions by the County Sheriff, all without incident. HAD the BATF wanted Koresh arrested, they would have had the Sheriff's pick him up.

But the BATF was there to kill Koresh as a statement to Americans about the power of government and the price of defying federal authority

 

[Uncensored2008]

Then I suggest you learn more about Ruby Ridge. Weaver was a numbskull but the government was complicit in the deaths there. That's why after Gerry Spence demolished the prosecutions case he didn't even bother to present a defence case. It was so clear, to everyone, that the government had acted illegally that the jury found Weaver innocent of all the major charges.

And let's not forget that an Idaho grand jury swore out a warrant for Lon Horiuchi on the charge of murder. Horiuchi is the FBI assassin who murdered Viki Weaver as she stood holding her infant in her arms.

 

[whitehall]

There was a time in history when the radical left demonstrated against the heavy handed methods employed by the government but it was just for show. Left wing radical hypocrites actually love government tyranny as long as the abuser has a "D" after his name.

 

[Againsheila]

There was a time in history when the radical left demonstrated against the heavy handed methods employed by the government but it was just for show. Left wing radical hypocrites actually love government tyranny as long as the abuser has a "D" after his name.

Same goes for the right wing and the letter "R".

Until people stop electing dems and reps, our country will continue it's decline.

 

[Synthaholic]

I'm glad there are some who have taken the time to learn these critical facts. Maybe there is hope.

There is no evidence at all about who fired the shots first. Davidian survivors say it was the ATF, the ATF says it was the Davidians...

Untrue. There were multiple sources that state the ATF fired first when they shot the dogs near the front door. Then when Koresh opened the door someone shot him through the door. That's why the door disappeared after the final assault. It would have shown that those claims were accurate.

The fact remains, 21 children and 4 agents were killed because some bureaucrat in the ATF office in Texas wanted to make a name for themselves and justify their budget.

That is shameful, and to hear people like you, who I believe to be educated and thoughtful, blissfully ignore well founded evidence is disappointing.

Total bullshit.

Come back when you get a fucking clue what you're talking about, asshole.

 

[Synthaholic]

Who cares. Give them 120 days. Eventually they run out of food and water and voila, the siege ends peacefully. There is simply no justification for the killing of 21 innocent children...none. It is the same as saying "well those darned kids in that school shouldn't have been there.....it's their fault for being there."

Just like those poor kids didn't have a choice, neither did the kids in Texas. Their fucked up parents put them into that situation...but the government DID have a choice. It didn't have to push in there like they did...they could have waited...what would have been the issue? Insolent behavior and felony stupid? Plus a little contempt of cop thrown in? Big deal. That's what the police are paid for.

They are not paid to kill 21 children to make a point about the "rule of law". The "rule of law" is mandated to SAVE children like that.....not incinerate them.

Not if they thought peoples' lives were in imminent danger. Things change over the course of a seige. Why couldn't he just lay down his arms? Take it from there.

You assume they are responsible for their deaths. They are not. Koresh was.

And what would have happened if they had waited it out and they had committed suicide or been shot to death by hardcore Davidians...

This guy was a mental case. End of story.

No ones life was in immediate danger...till the government started killing them. Had the government not attacked those children would still be alive. Yes, the government would have had to wait for a few more weeks, so what.

Except the ATF agents who were killed.

 

[Synthaholic]

Agreed. Too bad many on the Left are incapable of understanding this simple thing.

We are rapidly coming apart as a nation. We no longer have common values. I have nothing common with these foolish Leftists who gladly ignore the Constitution and willingly give up their rights to a state becoming more and more tyrannical.

Only in your unhinged, govt-hating mind. I just don't understand why all you guys who think like you do, all move to a state and vote in people who think like you. Then you can all live in your little piece of Nirvana. I think somebody was trying that in New Hampshire....

Ruby Ridge and Waco are examples of nitwits who think they are above the law of the land. Unfortunately it gives gun nuts and extreme right-wing loons the ammunition they need to get across their POV. And let's not forget Timothy McVeigh was on your side of the equation. What a nice guy he turned out to be. Plenty of kids killed in Oklahoma too....

Then I suggest you learn more about Ruby Ridge. Weaver was a numbskull but the government was complicit in the deaths there. That's why after Gerry Spence demolished the prosecutions case he didn't even bother to present a defence case. It was so clear, to everyone, that the government had acted illegally that the jury found Weaver innocent of all the major charges.

And his stupid, irresponsible actions got his wife and son killed.

Nice tradeoff.

 

[westwall]

There is no evidence at all about who fired the shots first. Davidian survivors say it was the ATF, the ATF says it was the Davidians...

Untrue. There were multiple sources that state the ATF fired first when they shot the dogs near the front door. Then when Koresh opened the door someone shot him through the door. That's why the door disappeared after the final assault. It would have shown that those claims were accurate.

The fact remains, 21 children and 4 agents were killed because some bureaucrat in the ATF office in Texas wanted to make a name for themselves and justify their budget.

That is shameful, and to hear people like you, who I believe to be educated and thoughtful, blissfully ignore well founded evidence is disappointing.

Total bullshit.

Come back when you get a fucking clue what you're talking about, asshole.

Jess Guy is a good friend of mine and was head of the ATF office in San Jose when the shit went down. I have it from the horses mouth as he and all the other good ATF agents were appalled at what went down in Waco.

You couldn't find your ass with both hands without help, so kindly go fuck yourself you ignorant prick.

 

[westwall]

Not if they thought peoples' lives were in imminent danger. Things change over the course of a seige. Why couldn't he just lay down his arms? Take it from there.

You assume they are responsible for their deaths. They are not. Koresh was.

And what would have happened if they had waited it out and they had committed suicide or been shot to death by hardcore Davidians...

This guy was a mental case. End of story.

No ones life was in immediate danger...till the government started killing them. Had the government not attacked those children would still be alive. Yes, the government would have had to wait for a few more weeks, so what.

Except the ATF agents who were killed.

Yeah, funny how when they attack someone without a warrant the people are supposed to just let the assault happen.

Nice to meet you Reinhard...

 

[westwall]

Only in your unhinged, govt-hating mind. I just don't understand why all you guys who think like you do, all move to a state and vote in people who think like you. Then you can all live in your little piece of Nirvana. I think somebody was trying that in New Hampshire....

Ruby Ridge and Waco are examples of nitwits who think they are above the law of the land. Unfortunately it gives gun nuts and extreme right-wing loons the ammunition they need to get across their POV. And let's not forget Timothy McVeigh was on your side of the equation. What a nice guy he turned out to be. Plenty of kids killed in Oklahoma too....

Then I suggest you learn more about Ruby Ridge. Weaver was a numbskull but the government was complicit in the deaths there. That's why after Gerry Spence demolished the prosecutions case he didn't even bother to present a defence case. It was so clear, to everyone, that the government had acted illegally that the jury found Weaver innocent of all the major charges.

And his stupid, irresponsible actions got his wife and son killed.

Nice tradeoff.

Yet again you demonstrate what a complete asshat you are. Until you read the facts of the case (I have, you clearly havn't) your opinion is meaningless. You quite litterally don't know shit about what you speak so your input is about as useful as a mosquito bite.

 

[whitehall]

Why does the left feel the need to defend every democrat administration? Anybody can see that Waco was a fukup from day one but the left just won't admit it because they have a stake in the power and the guns of the federal government. If they admit that the ATF made criminal mistakes they might not be on board for whatever new assaults on the Constitution are in the works courtesy of the Hussein administration.

 

[Synthaholic]

Untrue. There were multiple sources that state the ATF fired first when they shot the dogs near the front door. Then when Koresh opened the door someone shot him through the door. That's why the door disappeared after the final assault. It would have shown that those claims were accurate.

The fact remains, 21 children and 4 agents were killed because some bureaucrat in the ATF office in Texas wanted to make a name for themselves and justify their budget.

That is shameful, and to hear people like you, who I believe to be educated and thoughtful, blissfully ignore well founded evidence is disappointing.

Total bullshit.

Come back when you get a fucking clue what you're talking about, asshole.

Jess Guy is a good friend of mine and was head of the ATF office in San Jose when the shit went down. I have it from the horses mouth as he and all the other good ATF agents were appalled at what went down in Waco.

You couldn't find your ass with both hands without help, so kindly go fuck yourself you ignorant prick.

Who gives a shit? If he wasn't involved with the operation, he was out of the loop.

 

[whitehall]

The bottom line is that today's radical lefties have to embrace the very agencies that yesterday's lefties hated because they think they are close to the revolution. As Chairman Mao once said, "political power comes at the point of a gun".

 

[westwall]

Total bullshit.

Come back when you get a fucking clue what you're talking about, asshole.

Jess Guy is a good friend of mine and was head of the ATF office in San Jose when the shit went down. I have it from the horses mouth as he and all the other good ATF agents were appalled at what went down in Waco.

You couldn't find your ass with both hands without help, so kindly go fuck yourself you ignorant prick.

Who gives a shit? If he wasn't involved with the operation, he was out of the loop.

Wrong again buckwheat, he was one of those called in to investigate the operation, it was his recomndation that the supervisors involved be prosecuted.

 

[westwall]

The bottom line is that today's radical lefties have to embrace the very agencies that yesterday's lefties hated because they think they are close to the revolution. As Chairman Mao once said, "political power comes at the point of a gun".

Yep. I remember back in the 1970's the most popular bumper sticker said "QUESTION AUTHORITY". Asshats like synthroid here, well they will roll over and spread their cheeks wide for the Dear Leader.

 

[MikeK]

There is substantive evidence that the ATF fired the first shots. Before they had identified themselves. That's one of the reasons the front door disappeared, too much verifiable evidence so it had to go.

I'm glad there are some who have taken the time to learn these critical facts. Maybe there is hope.

There is no evidence at all about who fired the shots first. Davidian survivors say it was the ATF, the ATF says it was the Davidians...

Let's explore some of the facts in this question.

First, according to the testimony of several Davidian survivors and a number of the ATF raiders who were at the front door when Koresh opened it and asked to see a warrant, there were at least half-a-dozen Davidians standing alongside and behind Koresh all of whom were armed with rifles, including M-1 Garands. If the Davidians had opened fire first, and if you understand the capability of the 30.06 M-1 Garand, you need no assurance from me that more than one or two of those raiders would have been laid out in spite of their body armor. As it was, none of them were shot until they began to break in. As it was, the only person shot in the front-door transaction was Koresh.

The Davidians' lawyer, Richard DeGuerin, has repeatedly stated to the Press that he inspected the front door and the holes in in the heavy kalomein door were clearly made by gunshots from outside -- including the one that struck Koresh.

That front door consisted of two part Kalamein construction. A Kalamein (fireproof) door is made of 1-1/2" thick solid wood which is covered with molded tin. It doesn't burn. Only one half of that door was recovered from the ruins -- the half with no bullet holes.

DeGuerin also stated he saw many bullet holes in the ceiling of the structure, supporting Koresh's complaint that the raiders, being fully aware there were children inside, directed machine-gun fire at the building from a helicopter.

It is a standing rule of engagement forbidding federal agents from discharging their weapons unless they have a target in plain view. Therefore every bullet hole in the walls of the Davidian's building is an example of ATF agents' contempt for rules.

ATF claimed they were "ambushed" by the Davidians. But the Davidians knew the ATF was coming well in advance of their arrival and the raiders had to cross a 90 yard clearing between the residence and the highway where their trailer was parked. Many of the davidians were expert marksmen and were armed with high-power deer rifles and M-1 Garands. Yet not one shot was fired at the raiders until they began their attempt to break in.

Having the high ground, concealment, and weapons advantage, there is no question that the Davidians could have killed most of the raiders before they reached the front door if they chose to.

 

[gipper]

Why does the left feel the need to defend every democrat administration? Anybody can see that Waco was a fukup from day one but the left just won't admit it because they have a stake in the power and the guns of the federal government. If they admit that the ATF made criminal mistakes they might not be on board for whatever new assaults on the Constitution are in the works courtesy of the Hussein administration.

To answer your question, it is because they are hypocrites...major league hypocrites.

Remember when W pushed through the tyrannical Patriot Act? The left went nuts, but when Big Ears renewed it, with even more tyrannical provisions added, they were silent or in complete agreement.

Unfortunately many libs and Ds just go along with whatever the state run media tells them. The media dumps on W, they go along. The media blows kisses to BO, they blow him too. And when the hypocrisy is pointed out to them, they refuse to accept the truth or attack their accusers. Sadly many leftists are nothing more than statist drones who will gladly give up their rights to the all knowing all powerful state....we have nothing in common with these people. They want to be serfs and demand that we should too.

 

[Crackerjaxon]

Anyone who supports what the government did at Waco either doesn't know the facts or is enamored with the idea of killing innocent people.

If you want to know the truth about Waco see Waco: Rules of Engagement.

 

[Synthaholic]

Anyone who supports what the government did at Waco either doesn't know the facts or is enamored with the idea of killing innocent people.

If you want to know the truth about Waco see Waco: Rules of Engagement.

It's a smokescreen to judge Waco by what happened on Day 51.

It should have been over on Day 1, with Koresh not resisting a lawful order, and calling his lawyer to come to the jail to bail him out.

 

[westwall]

Anyone who supports what the government did at Waco either doesn't know the facts or is enamored with the idea of killing innocent people.

If you want to know the truth about Waco see Waco: Rules of Engagement.

It's a smokescreen to judge Waco by what happened on Day 51.

It should have been over on Day 1, with Koresh not resisting a lawful order, and calling his lawyer to come to the jail to bail him out.

The point, stupid, is it WASN'T a lawful order. Until you get that through your thick skull youwill continue to make a complete ass of yourself.

Which isn't surprising given your normal posts.