Assault on Waco

[Againsheila]

Janet Reno was one of this country's best AG, ever.

In this country, when law enforcement tells you to come out with your hands up, you do it, and fight your battle in court.

Don't want to do that? Fuck you - you can die in a hail of bullets, or the fire you started.

I do not believe the branch Davidians started the fire. I watched as that tank crashed into that building and the fire started, probably the tank knocked over one of their oil lamps. It spread rapidly from there. Not saying there wasn't something there to help the fire spread faster but it didn't start until that tank tried to take down that wall and that's exactly where it started.

I'm sure the residents of Germany all thought the same way you do as the Nazi's came to take away the Jews.

 

[whitehall]

Janet Reno was one of this country's best AG, ever.

In this country, when law enforcement tells you to come out with your hands up, you do it, and fight your battle in court.

Don't want to do that? Fuck you - you can die in a hail of bullets, or the fire you started.

Amazingly similar to nazi rhetoric.

 

[Synthaholic]

Janet Reno was one of this country's best AG, ever.

In this country, when law enforcement tells you to come out with your hands up, you do it, and fight your battle in court.

Don't want to do that? Fuck you - you can die in a hail of bullets, or the fire you started.

I do not believe the branch Davidians started the fire. I watched as that tank crashed into that building and the fire started, probably the tank knocked over one of their oil lamps. It spread rapidly from there. Not saying there wasn't something there to help the fire spread faster but it didn't start until that tank tried to take down that wall and that's exactly where it started.

False. They started the fire when law enforcement patience ran out, after 50+ days.

I'm sure the residents of Germany all thought the same way you do as the Nazi's came to take away the Jews.

So now the U.S. government are Nazis?

Branch Davidians were targeted for extermination by the U.S. government?

Please stop for just a few seconds before you type, so that you don't look like a dunce. Because that's some stupid shit.

 

[MikeK]

Janet Reno was one of this country's best AG, ever.

In this country, when law enforcement tells you to come out with your hands up, you do it, and fight your battle in court.

Don't want to do that? Fuck you - you can die in a hail of bullets, or the fire you started.

Orwell was right.

You are a precise manifestation of the authoritarian/submissive personality, as well as a prime example of what is happening to America. And it's a goddam shame.

 

[Synthaholic]

Janet Reno was one of this country's best AG, ever.

In this country, when law enforcement tells you to come out with your hands up, you do it, and fight your battle in court.

Don't want to do that? Fuck you - you can die in a hail of bullets, or the fire you started.

Orwell was right.

You are a precise manifestation of the authoritarian/submissive personality, as well as a prime example of what is happening to America. And it's a goddam shame.

Explain, please.

 

[whitehall]

The left's tolerance for atrocities is determined by politics. Generally the people who were interested in the Ruby Ridge siege were critical of the administration even though a republican George H.W. Bush was in office. Democrats generally don't have much use for the Police but they justified the atrocity at Waco simply because it happened during a democrat administration. The same goes for Fast Furious. The hypocrites on the left seem to care about the welfare of illegal aliens but when the democrat administration ships enough weapons to Mexico to kill about 400 innocent citizens and a US Border Patrol officer it's fine because a democrat is in the WH.

 

[Againsheila]

Janet Reno was one of this country's best AG, ever.

In this country, when law enforcement tells you to come out with your hands up, you do it, and fight your battle in court.

Don't want to do that? Fuck you - you can die in a hail of bullets, or the fire you started.

I do not believe the branch Davidians started the fire. I watched as that tank crashed into that building and the fire started, probably the tank knocked over one of their oil lamps. It spread rapidly from there. Not saying there wasn't something there to help the fire spread faster but it didn't start until that tank tried to take down that wall and that's exactly where it started.

False. They started the fire when law enforcement patience ran out, after 50+ days.

I'm sure the residents of Germany all thought the same way you do as the Nazi's came to take away the Jews.

So now the U.S. government are Nazis?

Branch Davidians were targeted for extermination by the U.S. government?

Please stop for just a few seconds before you type, so that you don't look like a dunce. Because that's some stupid shit.

I watched the film, several times. It started exactly when that tank broke into that wall. And no, I'm not calling our government nazis, I'm saying you're thinking just like the German's did as the Nazi's took over. And yea, what our government did at Waco, that was Nazi like, so was Ruby Ridge. There are a lot of things our government has done to make me ashamed of them but those two are the worst.

 

[MikeK]

Janet Reno was one of this country's best AG, ever.

In this country, when law enforcement tells you to come out with your hands up, you do it, and fight your battle in court.

Don't want to do that? Fuck you - you can die in a hail of bullets, or the fire you started.

I do not believe the branch Davidians started the fire. I watched as that tank crashed into that building and the fire started, probably the tank knocked over one of their oil lamps. It spread rapidly from there. Not saying there wasn't something there to help the fire spread faster but it didn't start until that tank tried to take down that wall and that's exactly where it started.

False. They started the fire when law enforcement patience ran out, after 50+ days.

I'm sure the residents of Germany all thought the same way you do as the Nazi's came to take away the Jews.

So now the U.S. government are Nazis?

In the way they finalized the Waco standoff? Absolutely -- the main difference being the comparative subtlety in the way it was done. The original Nazis would have done the same thing much sooner and without any remorseful pretense.

Branch Davidians were targeted for extermination by the U.S. government?

No. No one has suggested that.

They were victims of incompetent, overly aggressive, excessively authoritarian, sadistic federal goons and a totally corrupt, equally incompetent Executive branch of government.

Please stop for just a few seconds before you type, so that you don't look like a dunce. Because that's some stupid shit.

The need to use personal insults to make a point is what determines stupidity and points out who the dunces are.

 

[MikeK]

Janet Reno was one of this country's best AG, ever.

In this country, when law enforcement tells you to come out with your hands up, you do it, and fight your battle in court.

Don't want to do that? Fuck you - you can die in a hail of bullets, or the fire you started.

Orwell was right.

You are a precise manifestation of the authoritarian/submissive personality, as well as a prime example of what is happening to America. And it's a goddam shame.

Explain, please.

If you need an explanation I refer you to Dr. Erich Fromm's book, Escape From Freedom, in which he devotes an entire chapter to describing in layman terms the authoritarian personality in all its forms, its origins, and its effects on a democratic society. (Available from Amazon -- now in paperpack.)

And if you don't know what I mean by saying Orwell was right, read Nineteen Eighty Four. While the year 1984 has come and gone, we surely are entering the era of Nineteen Eighty Four. And those American citizens who are capable of reason but who believe what happened at Waco is justifiable are evidence of that.

The worst is yet to come.

 

[MikeK]

You really should read the Danforth Report. The FBI and ATF fucked up and tried very hard to cover up their fuck ups. Even an FBI agent was indicted for manslaughter.

Cops and federal agents are far from perfect, and when they fuck up, their natural reaction is to lie, obstruct investigations, and cover up.

Such honor.

Oh, and Koresh was a whackadoodle, but there really is no death penalty for being whacked in the head.

Their fuck up was not bashing the door down right after those agents were killed and offing every terrorist holding a gun.

Letting Koresh warble for over a month was idiotic and a disgrace.

There is substantive evidence that the ATF fired the first shots. Before they had identified themselves. That's one of the reasons the front door disappeared, too much verifiable evidence so it had to go.

I'm glad there are some who have taken the time to learn these critical facts. Maybe there is hope.

 

[MikeK]

Sure they did.

Christian Terrorist Pedophile David Koresh was illegally involved in the sale of grenade casings.

ATF agents had a legal warrant to search the compound.

The terrorists in the compound open fire on federal agents.

What happened after that is completely the fault of the terrorists.

They were dummy grenade bodies that can be purchased at any surplus store in the US (except for good 'ol CA), they would mount them on plaques with a number and a "Complaint Dept Take a Number".

In other words they were purely a novelty and completely legal. As was everything they did. In fact, Koresh was wanted on a attempted murder charge and the Sheriff drove out and peacefully picked him up some years before.

The initial assault was completely unneccessary and done purely for show (the media had been told to be at the location before the attack began) and led to the terrible deaths of four agents.

All for nothing but a press release to justify the ATF budget requests.

"Grenade casings"? You mean those old inert WW2 pineapple grenades that you can buy in any surplus store?

Exactly.

The ATF's warrant was issued on the basis of such false and erroneous allegations as drug manufacturing and child molestation, charges which had been thoroughly investigated and determined to be unfounded by the local sheriff and the Texas Department of Social Services long before the warrant application was submitted.

The question of why the magistrate who issued that warrant has not been recalled was never raised.

 

[MikeK]

Scary scenario for Americans when they see the left wing's tolerance for abuse by the administration as long as the sleaze bag is a democrat.

I don't know about that. I was, and continue to be, totally disappointed by the general public's passive acceptance of what happened at Waco and their lack of critical reaction to the phony "hearing" that followed. And I believe the public inertia existed on both sides of the political aisle. It appears the public was all-too-willing to accept government's version and blame the Davidians for what happened.

If I'm mistaken, correct me.

The blame lies where it lies...with the Branch Davidians - Koresh especially...

Really?

Do you know there were 21 children, some as young as two, innocent little tots, living in that building? Do you also know that Koresh had threatened mass suicide if an attempt was made to forcibly enter?

Regardless of any concerns, about criminality or anything else, having cause to believe David Koresh was mentally unstable how can you justify jeopardizing the safety of those kids?

Have you thought about this or are you simply responding to the federal brainwash?

 

[MikeK]

Really?

Do you know there were 21 children, some as young as two, innocent little tots, living in that building? Do you also know that Koresh had threatened mass suicide if an attempt was made to forcibly enter?

Regardless of any concerns, about criminality or anything else, having cause to believe David Koresh was mentally unstable how can you justify jeopardizing the safety of those kids?

Have you thought about this or are you simply responding to the federal brainwash?

Your first two paragraphs should give you a clue as to what the fed govt did was absolutely correct. I have even bolded the important parts.

I have mentioned this in another thread that the likes of yourself, Oddball and the rest of you libertarians get so caught up in personal freedoms that common sense goes out the window. As mentioned two posts ago, you lay down your arms and sue the shit out of the govt. Because unlike your disingenuous comparisons to Nazism, the US today is not Germany circa 1933 and that is what you do in the US - sue the shit outta people..

First, I am not a Libertarian.

Last, although you haven't explained your reasoning you believe the government's action, which precipitated the agonizing death by incineration of 21 innocent children, to be "the right thing."

Is there anything I need to say about you? I think that says it all.

 

[MikeK]

There is substantive evidence that the ATF fired the first shots. Before they had identified themselves. That's one of the reasons the front door disappeared, too much verifiable evidence so it had to go.

I'm glad there are some who have taken the time to learn these critical facts. Maybe there is hope.

There is no evidence at all about who fired the shots first. Davidian survivors say it was the ATF, the ATF says it was the Davidians...

I think you can use a bit of education where this topic is concerned. You can get it here if you're interested: Assault on Waco

I don't say this to offend you or to be smart-ass, but it's rather obvious you've been the subject of a long-term brainwash and exposure to new ideas is disturbing to you. So spend some time digesting the facts you'll find via the link. It might work for you.

 

[MikeK]

Your first two paragraphs should give you a clue as to what the fed govt did was absolutely correct. I have even bolded the important parts.

I have mentioned this in another thread that the likes of yourself, Oddball and the rest of you libertarians get so caught up in personal freedoms that common sense goes out the window. As mentioned two posts ago, you lay down your arms and sue the shit out of the govt. Because unlike your disingenuous comparisons to Nazism, the US today is not Germany circa 1933 and that is what you do in the US - sue the shit outta people..

First, I am not a Libertarian.

Last, although you haven't explained your reasoning you believe the government's action, which precipitated the agonizing death by incineration of 21 innocent children, to be "the right thing."

Is there anything I need to say about you? I think that says it all.

I believe in the rule of law. If you don't like a law, change it. Or you ask your congressman/senator to sponsor a bill to change the law. Or you vote them out if they don't agree with you.

If you think a law is being abused (as you are insinuating the govt did) then you sue the govt and/or its agents. Or you ask for a special prosecutor or you ask for hearings as there was with Benghazi

What you don't do is arm yourself to the teeth, put young children in danger, and shoot at people like Koresh did...

Notwithstanding your cheap shot, you add an emotive aspect to your argument, what happened to the children is another thing altogether. As I stated in the beginning, every action gets a reaction. Koresh started the action. Anything that snowballed from there is his problem. Does that mean the govt gets a free pass? Of course it doesn't. but please don't make out that the person responsible for this is some sort of martyr or scapegoat. he was a twisted, demented loser with a god complex. He was another Jim Jones.

Let's try it this way:

Imagine you are the commander of SWAT team called to a house where a group of cultist bank-robbing murderers have killed several police officers who attempted to serve a warrant. A number of these murderous cultists have children, twenty of them, most under three years old.

The leader tells you the cult is prepared to kill all the children and commit mass suicide if you try to break in -- and you have cause to believe these cultists are mentally unstable and probably will act on the threat.

What would you do?

 

[westwall]

There is substantive evidence that the ATF fired the first shots. Before they had identified themselves. That's one of the reasons the front door disappeared, too much verifiable evidence so it had to go.

I'm glad there are some who have taken the time to learn these critical facts. Maybe there is hope.

There is no evidence at all about who fired the shots first. Davidian survivors say it was the ATF, the ATF says it was the Davidians...

Untrue. There were multiple sources that state the ATF fired first when they shot the dogs near the front door. Then when Koresh opened the door someone shot him through the door. That's why the door disappeared after the final assault. It would have shown that those claims were accurate.

The fact remains, 21 children and 4 agents were killed because some bureaucrat in the ATF office in Texas wanted to make a name for themselves and justify their budget.

That is shameful, and to hear people like you, who I believe to be educated and thoughtful, blissfully ignore well founded evidence is disappointing.

 

[westwall]

I believe in the rule of law. If you don't like a law, change it. Or you ask your congressman/senator to sponsor a bill to change the law. Or you vote them out if they don't agree with you.

If you think a law is being abused (as you are insinuating the govt did) then you sue the govt and/or its agents. Or you ask for a special prosecutor or you ask for hearings as there was with Benghazi

What you don't do is arm yourself to the teeth, put young children in danger, and shoot at people like Koresh did...

Notwithstanding your cheap shot, you add an emotive aspect to your argument, what happened to the children is another thing altogether. As I stated in the beginning, every action gets a reaction. Koresh started the action. Anything that snowballed from there is his problem. Does that mean the govt gets a free pass? Of course it doesn't. but please don't make out that the person responsible for this is some sort of martyr or scapegoat. he was a twisted, demented loser with a god complex. He was another Jim Jones.

Let's try it this way:

Imagine you are the commander of SWAT team called to a house where a group of cultist bank-robbing murderers have killed several police officers who attempted to serve a warrant. A number of these murderous cultists have children, twenty of them, most under three years old.

The leader tells you the cult is prepared to kill all the children and commit mass suicide if you try to break in -- and you have cause to believe these cultists are mentally unstable and probably will act on the threat.

What would you do?

But that wasn't the case was it? I don't do woulda, coulda, shoulda. It's not like he was given 24 hours. he got 51 days...

Who cares. Give them 120 days. Eventually they run out of food and water and voila, the siege ends peacefully. There is simply no justification for the killing of 21 innocent children...none. It is the same as saying "well those darned kids in that school shouldn't have been there.....it's their fault for being there."

Just like those poor kids didn't have a choice, neither did the kids in Texas. Their fucked up parents put them into that situation...but the government DID have a choice. It didn't have to push in there like they did...they could have waited...what would have been the issue? Insolent behavior and felony stupid? Plus a little contempt of cop thrown in? Big deal. That's what the police are paid for.

They are not paid to kill 21 children to make a point about the "rule of law". The "rule of law" is mandated to SAVE children like that.....not incinerate them.

 

[Crackerjaxon]

I am amazed that supposedly intelligent people condone the slaughter of law-abiding people at Waco.

What fools you are.

 

[whitehall]

First, I am not a Libertarian.

Last, although you haven't explained your reasoning you believe the government's action, which precipitated the agonizing death by incineration of 21 innocent children, to be "the right thing."

Is there anything I need to say about you? I think that says it all.

I believe in the rule of law. If you don't like a law, change it. Or you ask your congressman/senator to sponsor a bill to change the law. Or you vote them out if they don't agree with you.

If you think a law is being abused (as you are insinuating the govt did) then you sue the govt and/or its agents. Or you ask for a special prosecutor or you ask for hearings as there was with Benghazi

What you don't do is arm yourself to the teeth, put young children in danger, and shoot at people like Koresh did...

Notwithstanding your cheap shot, you add an emotive aspect to your argument, what happened to the children is another thing altogether. As I stated in the beginning, every action gets a reaction. Koresh started the action. Anything that snowballed from there is his problem. Does that mean the govt gets a free pass? Of course it doesn't. but please don't make out that the person responsible for this is some sort of martyr or scapegoat. he was a twisted, demented loser with a god complex. He was another Jim Jones.

Let's try it this way:

Imagine you are the commander of SWAT team called to a house where a group of cultist bank-robbing murderers have killed several police officers who attempted to serve a warrant. A number of these murderous cultists have children, twenty of them, most under three years old.

The leader tells you the cult is prepared to kill all the children and commit mass suicide if you try to break in -- and you have cause to believe these cultists are mentally unstable and probably will act on the threat.

What would you do?

Let's try it this way. Imagine four Soldiers were killed approaching an A.-Queda stronghold filled with civilians. Tanks started pouring toxic gas into the compound and a fire incinerated 80 people. The world would be outraged and the commander would no doubt be led away in handcuffs.

 

[MikeK]

I believe in the rule of law. If you don't like a law, change it. Or you ask your congressman/senator to sponsor a bill to change the law. Or you vote them out if they don't agree with you.

If you think a law is being abused (as you are insinuating the govt did) then you sue the govt and/or its agents. Or you ask for a special prosecutor or you ask for hearings as there was with Benghazi

What you don't do is arm yourself to the teeth, put young children in danger, and shoot at people like Koresh did...

Notwithstanding your cheap shot, you add an emotive aspect to your argument, what happened to the children is another thing altogether. As I stated in the beginning, every action gets a reaction. Koresh started the action. Anything that snowballed from there is his problem. Does that mean the govt gets a free pass? Of course it doesn't. but please don't make out that the person responsible for this is some sort of martyr or scapegoat. he was a twisted, demented loser with a god complex. He was another Jim Jones.

Let's try it this way:

Imagine you are the commander of SWAT team called to a house where a group of cultist bank-robbing murderers have killed several police officers who attempted to serve a warrant. A number of these murderous cultists have children, twenty of them, most under three years old.

The leader tells you the cult is prepared to kill all the children and commit mass suicide if you try to break in -- and you have cause to believe these cultists are mentally unstable and probably will act on the threat.

What would you do?

But that wasn't the case was it? I don't do woulda, coulda, shoulda. It's not like he was given 24 hours. he got 51 days...

It is precisely the case, with one exception; the Davidians were not murderous bank robbers. They were peaceful, law-abiding citizens who had harmed no one.

The fact that you cannot answer the question I posed should give you pause to think about the hollow nature of your argument.