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For every authoritarian/dominant personality there are a dozen or more authoritarian/submissives. Were this not true the Third Reich could not have risen.It's a smokescreen to judge Waco by what happened on Day 51.Anyone who supports what the government did at Waco either doesn't know the facts or is enamored with the idea of killing innocent people.
If you want to know the truth about Waco see Waco: Rules of Engagement.
It should have been over on Day 1, with Koresh not resisting a lawful order, and calling his lawyer to come to the jail to bail him out.
It's a smokescreen to judge Waco by what happened on Day 51.Anyone who supports what the government did at Waco either doesn't know the facts or is enamored with the idea of killing innocent people.
If you want to know the truth about Waco see Waco: Rules of Engagement.
It should have been over on Day 1, with Koresh not resisting a lawful order, and calling his lawyer to come to the jail to bail him out.
The point, stupid, is it WASN'T a lawful order. Until you get that through your thick skull youwill continue to make a complete ass of yourself.
Which isn't surprising given your normal posts.
It's a smokescreen to judge Waco by what happened on Day 51.
It should have been over on Day 1, with Koresh not resisting a lawful order, and calling his lawyer to come to the jail to bail him out.
The point, stupid, is it WASN'T a lawful order. Until you get that through your thick skull youwill continue to make a complete ass of yourself.
Which isn't surprising given your normal posts.
it *was* a lawful order. that isn't how things work. you get out when you're told to get out. you can sue the bastards later if they've done something wrong.
young black men get pulled over and stopped and frisked and searched all the time in urban areas. you think they have the right to get people killed if they don't like it?
Jillian,It's a smokescreen to judge Waco by what happened on Day 51.
It should have been over on Day 1, with Koresh not resisting a lawful order, and calling his lawyer to come to the jail to bail him out.
The point, stupid, is it WASN'T a lawful order. Until you get that through your thick skull youwill continue to make a complete ass of yourself.
Which isn't surprising given your normal posts.
it *was* a lawful order. that isn't how things work. you get out when you're told to get out. you can sue the bastards later if they've done something wrong.
young black men get pulled over and stopped and frisked and searched all the time in urban areas. you think they have the right to get people killed if they don't like it?
Firstly, thank you to all the contributers. Despite seeing it all unfold on the news, I knew little of what transpired after the seige. Thanks. This has been a truly enlightening read.
But one question.
Would it be right to assume that the general message coming from the pro-Koresh camp is that resisting the unlawful entry of the compound by the FBI and ATF should serve as an example of what citizens might want to aspire towards in terms of lawfully defying the Federal government. Kind of like supplicancy in the face of aggression breeds complacency.
One of the saddest elements of the Waco story is the generally unknown fact that Koresh believed rather strongly during the initial stages of the seige that the media would eventually gain access to them and when the American public learned the truth about what was happening the result would be such pressure on Washington the President would be forced to intervene and there would be a truthful hearing of the facts. What he didn't count on is federal suppression of the media, which was a brazen violation of Amendment One (Freedom of the Press).Firstly, thank you to all the contributers. Despite seeing it all unfold on the news, I knew little of what transpired after the seige. Thanks. This has been a truly enlightening read.
But one question.
Would it be right to assume that the general message coming from the pro-Koresh camp is that resisting the unlawful entry of the compound by the FBI and ATF should serve as an example of what citizens might want to aspire towards in terms of lawfully defying the Federal government. Kind of like supplicancy in the face of aggression breeds complacency.
The point, stupid, is it WASN'T a lawful order. Until you get that through your thick skull youwill continue to make a complete ass of yourself.
Which isn't surprising given your normal posts.
it *was* a lawful order. that isn't how things work. you get out when you're told to get out. you can sue the bastards later if they've done something wrong.
young black men get pulled over and stopped and frisked and searched all the time in urban areas. you think they have the right to get people killed if they don't like it?
No, jillian, it wasn't. First off the warrant was deficient in that it listed not a SINGLE illegal object to be found. Secondly there wasn't a copy of the warrant anywhere in the area when the attack began. And you know I don't believe the other either. Koresh was an ass. There is no doubt about that. 21 children however should not have to pay the ultimate price because their parents are nimrods. It is the governments DUTY to protect those children, not incinerate them.
It isn't up to the perp to decide if an order is lawful. It is up to the Courts
I fought the law, and the law won
I fought the law and the law won
The fact is the raid never should have happened. Nothing illegal was going on at the Compound. The ATF secretly took away the FFL licenses of those at the Compound just before the raid and claimed that illegal gun buying had occurred. Not true, every purchase was legal and followed the law.
Embarrassed after 3 months of siege the FBI staged an illegal raid using the military. The FBI KNEW that the wooden structured were set to be burned if attacked, with gasoline placed all over the structures, yet they authorized the use of tanks to not only break through the walls but spew flammable chemicals and fire starting canisters into the mix.
The compound was no threat during the 3 month siege not one shot was fired from the compound and no one attempted to leave. The FBI murdered those children.
There is no evidence that in the initial raid the civilians even fired on the ATF. The first pictures later taken down and never seen again had an ATF agent spraying a window with automatic fire where 3 of his partners had just entered. The door to the compound recovered intact had no bullet holes originating from inside the compound and was conveniently lost when Congress ask to see it. None of the cars in the parking lot had bullet holes originating from the compound all holes were from outside where the ATF was.
Firstly, thank you to all the contributers. Despite seeing it all unfold on the news, I knew little of what transpired after the seige. Thanks. This has been a truly enlightening read.
But one question.
Would it be right to assume that the general message coming from the pro-Koresh camp is that resisting the unlawful entry of the compound by the FBI and ATF should serve as an example of what citizens might want to aspire towards in terms of lawfully defying the Federal government. Kind of like supplicancy in the face of aggression breeds complacency.
I want to correct something right off the bat; no one is "pro-Koresh."
David Koresh was a megalomaniac and a cult leader. Suspicions of sex with underaged girls were well founded, but not the "child molesting" the Clinton administration later promoted. Like many cult leaders, Koresh took ALL of the women in the cult as his own harem. Koresh, declaring himself a prophet (The branch Davidians were a break off of 7th Day Adventists) had stated that god revealed the age one becomes a women to be 14, thus the girls in the cult were to have sex with him starting on their 14th birthday. (Probably a correct interpretation of Mosiac law, holding that one is a child THROUGH the 13th year.)
Koresh was a scumbag and insane.
None of this changes anything.
First off, the BATF has no jurisdiction over sex statutes. If there was evidence of child abuse, then the County Sheriff and child protective services were the proper authority.
Secondly, there was an embedded FBI agent in the cult, who was not able to identify any illegal acts. Even the sex was ambiguous. There was never any evidence of illegal guns, the BATF fabricated an affidavit in an attempt to get a warrant, which was not issued.
Secondly, no attempt to serve a warrant was ever made, the BATF started with a guns blazing, military assault on the compound. They clearly intended to use a military assault and kill Koresh and several of the men as a means of covering for their lack of warrant. Arrests bring courts and examinations of evidence and procedure.
Be clear, the BATF was there to kill, not to arrest anyone.
So yes, the Davidians reaction was the correct one, to defend themselves from a gang of armed murderers.
it *was* a lawful order. that isn't how things work. you get out when you're told to get out. you can sue the bastards later if they've done something wrong.
young black men get pulled over and stopped and frisked and searched all the time in urban areas. you think they have the right to get people killed if they don't like it?
No, jillian, it wasn't. First off the warrant was deficient in that it listed not a SINGLE illegal object to be found. Secondly there wasn't a copy of the warrant anywhere in the area when the attack began. And you know I don't believe the other either. Koresh was an ass. There is no doubt about that. 21 children however should not have to pay the ultimate price because their parents are nimrods. It is the governments DUTY to protect those children, not incinerate them.
It isn't up to the perp to decide if an order is lawful. It is up to the Courts
Jillian,The point, stupid, is it WASN'T a lawful order. Until you get that through your thick skull youwill continue to make a complete ass of yourself.
Which isn't surprising given your normal posts.
it *was* a lawful order. that isn't how things work. you get out when you're told to get out. you can sue the bastards later if they've done something wrong.
young black men get pulled over and stopped and frisked and searched all the time in urban areas. you think they have the right to get people killed if they don't like it?
If the Jews in 1930s Germany were not so willing to board the cattle cars that took them to Auschwitz, and if more Jews had acted in the manner of the 35 who rebelled in the Warsaw Ghetto, there would not have been a Holocaust.
Anticipating your rejection of my comparisons I'll remind you that political oppression always comes about incrementally, one graduating step at a time. And your reasoning is no different from that of the Tories who disapproved of the American Revolution.
Jillian,it *was* a lawful order. that isn't how things work. you get out when you're told to get out. you can sue the bastards later if they've done something wrong.
young black men get pulled over and stopped and frisked and searched all the time in urban areas. you think they have the right to get people killed if they don't like it?
If the Jews in 1930s Germany were not so willing to board the cattle cars that took them to Auschwitz, and if more Jews had acted in the manner of the 35 who rebelled in the Warsaw Ghetto, there would not have been a Holocaust.
Anticipating your rejection of my comparisons I'll remind you that political oppression always comes about incrementally, one graduating step at a time. And your reasoning is no different from that of the Tories who disapproved of the American Revolution.
it *was* a lawful order. that isn't how things work. you get out when you're told to get out. you can sue the bastards later if they've done something wrong.
young black men get pulled over and stopped and frisked and searched all the time in urban areas. you think they have the right to get people killed if they don't like it?
No, jillian, it wasn't. First off the warrant was deficient in that it listed not a SINGLE illegal object to be found. Secondly there wasn't a copy of the warrant anywhere in the area when the attack began. And you know I don't believe the other either. Koresh was an ass. There is no doubt about that. 21 children however should not have to pay the ultimate price because their parents are nimrods. It is the governments DUTY to protect those children, not incinerate them.
It isn't up to the perp to decide if an order is lawful. It is up to the Courts
I fought the law, and the law won
I fought the law and the law won
The fact is the raid never should have happened. Nothing illegal was going on at the Compound. The ATF secretly took away the FFL licenses of those at the Compound just before the raid and claimed that illegal gun buying had occurred. Not true, every purchase was legal and followed the law.
Embarrassed after 3 months of siege the FBI staged an illegal raid using the military. The FBI KNEW that the wooden structured were set to be burned if attacked, with gasoline placed all over the structures, yet they authorized the use of tanks to not only break through the walls but spew flammable chemicals and fire starting canisters into the mix.
The compound was no threat during the 3 month siege not one shot was fired from the compound and no one attempted to leave. The FBI murdered those children.
There is no evidence that in the initial raid the civilians even fired on the ATF. The first pictures later taken down and never seen again had an ATF agent spraying a window with automatic fire where 3 of his partners had just entered. The door to the compound recovered intact had no bullet holes originating from inside the compound and was conveniently lost when Congress ask to see it. None of the cars in the parking lot had bullet holes originating from the compound all holes were from outside where the ATF was.
All the made up conspiracy theory bullshit doesn't mean squat.
Both Ruby Ridge and Waco have been investigated and in both instances there was misconduct by the ATF. That does not mitigate or excuse the Weavers criminal behavior. If federal law enforcement come with an arrest warrant and you resist or open fire on them, then you are responsible for what follows.
**Weaver had been indicted by a grand jury.
**Weaver missed a court date and a bench warrant was issued.
**Weaver refused to surrender to the U.S. Marshals. This dragged out for months while the U.S. Attorneys tried to arrange a peaceful surrender. -- Jesus, they were bending over backward to give this loon and easy way out.
**While scouting the Weaver property for a way to arrest Weaver without incident, the Weaver boys and their dog confronted U.S. Marshals. One dog was shot and the Weaver son fired on a U.S. Marshal. Let me repeat, a boy with a gun fired on a U.S. Marshal. Fuck you kid.
All the improper procedure and mishandling of the case up to that point by the ATF DO NOT give the Weavers the right to fire on a U.S. Marshal with an arrest warrant.
I won't excuse some of the early missteps by the ATF, but these backwoods paranoid fucks, the Weavers, cost the government and taxpayers thousands of man hours with all their stupid loony-toons home school bullshit.
What happened that day was a tragedy that could have been avoided. But you fuck with federal law enforcement and you play stupid paranoid games and refuse to cooperate or acknowledge their authority, YOU WILL GO DOWN.
Ultimately it was Randy Weaver and his paranoia that killed his wife and children.
I know Timothy McVeigh has a whole different theory about the tragedy and he ran around the country with his copy of the Turner Diaries spreading the gospel of paranoia and idiocy.
Waco was a cult stockpiling weapons, while their leader had sex with underage girls. How it went down, the final siege, was another tragedy. But they too fired on federal officers. There is NO VALID REASON TO FIRE ON FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT.
McVeigh was a domestic terrorist who was tried, convicted and executed in about seven years. The Feds chose not to investigate the political affiliation of the radical network McVeigh belonged to nor did they search for John Doe #1 or #2. They were content to arrest McVeigh associates who were not connected to the actual bombing. McVeigh was captured in record time after the bombing. The Feds aren't that good ...unless they know the identity of the perp. Indications are that the Feds set up a sting operation that got insanely out of hand. OKC judges were ordered not to come to work the day of the bombing before the bombing and according to witnesses there wasn't a single agent in the ATF office when the bomb went off. McVeigh was kept in virtual isolation the entire time and nobody in the media seemed interested in investigating what the hell really happened.
