Another look at those 'gubmint' schools. . . .

Foxfyre

Eternal optimist
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Oct 11, 2007
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Dude is up to his eyeballs in non USMB stuff today, but took time to toss me the following blurb on education. So this is his thread as much as mine.

The thesis is that good parents are able to realign priorities and do what they have to do to get it done where their kids are concerned. And they generally do it better than what we are seeing from the government these days.

Education. As Kevin and Deanna Daum were spiraling toward bankruptcy in 2009, they decided they could live without their two cars, their two residences, and most niceties. But they insisted on keeping up tuition payments for their son, then a senior at a private high school. Many Americans seems to feel likewise. While data doesn't readily show how much families spend on schooling, many families say they've given up other things in order to protect their kids' education, whether it's private school or college, tutoring, enrichment programs or school-related activities. Private school enrollments fell by less than one percent from 2008 to 2010, and college enrollments have gone up over the last couple of years. That's partly because jobs are scarce, but also because Americans simply value education. "This is an investment that pays off very well," says Sandy Baum, an economist at the College Board. "People are willing to borrow for it and they know that it's shortsighted to forego it."
10 Things We Can't Live Without - Yahoo! Finance

All across the country we see parents making great personal sacrifices to pay for good schools or to homeschool their kids with very positive results being posted for their effort. Students who attend private school or who are homeschooled are far more likely to graduate highschool, are far more likely to post high ACT and SAT scores, and are far more likely to go on to higher learning than are public schooled kids. Further they are less likely to get involved in illegal activities, are less likely to have run ins with the law, and are usually very well adjusted socially.

Would this not suggest that we need to start backing the federal government out of most of education rather than pushing for more and more ‘investment’ of tax dollars and other government involvement?

Is it not possible that good parents can and will do a better job for their kids than will the government?
 
Good idea! Screw the poor people, which is exactly what Thomas Jefferson DID NOT want.
 
For every success story about homeschooling we wear, there is probably plenty more we don't hear that weren't quite great successes.
 
For every success story about homeschooling we wear, there is probably plenty more we don't hear that weren't quite great successes.

That's possible but the statistics, ACT and SAT scoresm, etc. don't support it. I'm sure a few duds are produced among homeschooled kids--we are dealing with fallable human beings here--but my experience among several programs (Junior Rodeo, AWANA, et al) heavily populated with homeschooled kids, the appearance of success is pretty stunning.
 
Good idea! Screw the poor people, which is exactly what Thomas Jefferson DID NOT want.

I have tutored homeschooled kids from families of very limited means. They were great families and they have remarkable kids. One is now a junior at MIT.
 
That's possible but the statistics, ACT and SAT scoresm, etc. don't support it. I'm sure a few duds are produced among homeschooled kids--we are dealing with fallable human beings here--but my experience among several programs (Junior Rodeo, AWANA, et al) heavily populated with homeschooled kids, the appearance of success is pretty stunning.

:lol: SATs are not a good indicator of how smart someone is or well educated they are. It just means they can cram well or are good at taking a certain type of test.

It's why colleges across the country are moving away from them.
 
That's possible but the statistics, ACT and SAT scoresm, etc. don't support it. I'm sure a few duds are produced among homeschooled kids--we are dealing with fallable human beings here--but my experience among several programs (Junior Rodeo, AWANA, et al) heavily populated with homeschooled kids, the appearance of success is pretty stunning.

:lol: SATs are not a good indicator of how smart someone is or well educated they are. It just means they can cram well or are good at taking a certain type of test.

It's why colleges across the country are moving away from them.

I know. It pissed me off, I got a very high SAT score, and thought I'd get in wherever I wanted.

Didn't happen.
 
I know. It pissed me off, I got a very high SAT score, and thought I'd get in wherever I wanted.

Didn't happen.

It's because you can take the SATs as many times as you want and only have to give them the highest score.

I know people who took it three or four times, ridiculous. I took it once.

It's a nice racket though, get what is it now? $60 an attempt all so kids can get a sheet of paper saying they're good at taking a specific test.
 
That's possible but the statistics, ACT and SAT scoresm, etc. don't support it. I'm sure a few duds are produced among homeschooled kids--we are dealing with fallable human beings here--but my experience among several programs (Junior Rodeo, AWANA, et al) heavily populated with homeschooled kids, the appearance of success is pretty stunning.

:lol: SATs are not a good indicator of how smart someone is or well educated they are. It just means they can cram well or are good at taking a certain type of test.

It's why colleges across the country are moving away from them.

Some colleges are. Some of the UC colleges in California have been but they have lowered their standards to the point that, in my opinion, they will not long be considered prestigious schools. Most of the better schools do require decent SAT scores, some require SAT and ACT and some additional subject tests as well.

So. . . .
Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[93] Homeschooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.[94]

New evidence has been found that homeschooled children are getting higher scores on the ACT and SAT tests. A study at Wheaton College in Illinois showed that the freshmen that were homeschooled for high school scored fifty-eight points higher on their SAT scores than those students who attended public or private schools. Most colleges look at the ACT and SAT scores of homeschooled children when considering them for acceptance to a college. On average, homeschooled children score eighty-one points higher than the national average on the SAT scores.
Homeschooling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Yes, I know its Wiki, but I don't want to dig through all the library and academic stuff to find the same info. I don't think anybody can find a more credible source to dispute it.)
 
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Some colleges are. Some of the UC colleges in California have been but they have lowered their standards to the point that, in my opinion, they will not long be considered prestigious schools. Most of the better schools do require decent SAT scores, some require SAT and ACT and some additional subject tests as well.

So. . . .
Numerous studies have found that homeschooled students on average outperform their peers on standardized tests.[93] Homeschooling Achievement, a study conducted by National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI), supported the academic integrity of homeschooling. Among the homeschooled students who took the tests, the average homeschooled student outperformed his public school peers by 30 to 37 percentile points across all subjects. The study also indicates that public school performance gaps between minorities and genders were virtually non-existent among the homeschooled students who took the tests.[94]

New evidence has been found that homeschooled children are getting higher scores on the ACT and SAT tests. A study at Wheaton College in Illinois showed that the freshmen that were homeschooled for high school scored fifty-eight points higher on their SAT scores than those students who attended public or private schools. Most colleges look at the ACT and SAT scores of homeschooled children when considering them for acceptance to a college. On average, homeschooled children score eighty-one points higher than the national average on the SAT scores.
Homeschooling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Yes, I know its Wiki, but I don't want to dig through all the library and academic stuff to find the same info. I don't think anybody can find a more credible source to dispute it.)

It has nothing to do with standards. Some of the top ten colleges in the country like Wake Forest are now also moving away from SATs.

Also, I'm going to bold something in your link. Not sure if I trust the source of that study.

Like I said before, SATs are a worthless indicator of how intelligent one is or how well educated they are.
 
All across the country we see parents making great personal sacrifices to pay for good schools or to homeschool their kids with very positive results being posted for their effort. Students who attend private school or who are homeschooled are far more likely to graduate highschool, are far more likely to post high ACT and SAT scores, and are far more likely to go on to higher learning than are public schooled kids. Further they are less likely to get involved in illegal activities, are less likely to have run ins with the law, and are usually very well adjusted socially.

Would this not suggest that we need to start backing the federal government out of most of education rather than pushing for more and more ‘investment’ of tax dollars and other government involvement?

Is it not possible that good parents can and will do a better job for their kids than will the government?

I would like to see less Federal "Gubment."

However, I think you are comparing apples and oranges: Good Parents and Middlin'-to-Fair Parents.

Obviously, if kid's parents attend to their educational needs to the extent they PAY MORE for education, then they demonstrate that they VALUE education, and those kids are better educated

However, there are lots of parents that demonstrate that they value education, but do not (and often cannot) pay more for it, and those kids are better educated in the PUBLIC schools (honors classes, advanced placement).

But the main fallicy behind the construct behind the question: "Is it not possible that good parents can and will do a better job for their kids than will the government?" is that most parents are not "good." This leaves a vacuum in responsibility, and, gubment being quick to expand itself wherever it can, often regardless of need, siezes upon the REAL opportunity.
 
These are all great ideas in a Utopian World, but who is going to teach the parents how to teach the kids they homeschool?
 
Good idea! Screw the poor people, which is exactly what Thomas Jefferson DID NOT want.

What does poor have to do with it? If more people pull their kids out of gubamint schools, the teacher/pupil ratio will fall in those schools, thus making it better for the kids that stayed.

Poor schools aren't the problem. Poor kids aren't the problem. Poor parents aren't the problem.

Poor parents who don't discipline their poor kids, then send them to poor schools where the poor teachers are restricted by threats of lawsuits by trial lawyers if they dare discipline them are the problem.

Kid has no accountability at home, none at school, well, guess what? He's gonna have none when he grows up. And taxpayers will foot his welfare.

It all starts with parenting. Caring about your kids. Raise them right. Make it an unselfish decision that your kid will have a better life than you. It's a noble thing for a reason. Do that, you your kid's kids won't be poor.
 
These are all great ideas in a Utopian World, but who is going to teach the parents how to teach the kids they homeschool?

Well, it's like magic you know! The almighty dollar will come down from the heavens and impart the wisdom personally!
 
These are all great ideas in a Utopian World, but who is going to teach the parents how to teach the kids they homeschool?

A parent has to teach a kid a lot in life that isn't taught in schools. They'll do fine. The lack of parents teaching their kids life skills, like discipline, is what is creating the problem.

There is a world of difference in 1 parent teaching THEIR kid..........as opposed to 1 teacher teaching 30-40 of someone elses little brats.
 
Parents who care about education have children who care about their education. It's not really comparing apples to apples. It just saddens and frustrates me that some kids - yes POOR ones- don't have any choice. Homeschooling and private school are not an option for many. That's why I can't understand why anyone who claims to give a damn about poor kids or education would be opposed to vouchers. Befuddling to me.
 
Parents who care about education have children who care about their education. It's not really comparing apples to apples. It just saddens and frustrates me that some kids - yes POOR ones- don't have any choice. Homeschooling and private school are not an option for many. That's why I can't understand why anyone who claims to give a damn about poor kids or education would be opposed to vouchers. Befuddling to me.

Poor Vietnamese kid falls off the boat from Asia and 5 years later speaks perfect English, plays the violin, wins a spelling bee, and is doing calculus.

:eusa_whistle:

Why?
 

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