Another look at those 'gubmint' schools. . . .

Even in a home-schooled environment, if the kid's not motivated to learn then I don't think it'll make much of a difference. Public education isn't perfect, but is any human institution perfect? I think public ed does a decent but not great job overall. Private schools are a good alternative if you've got the money, and home schooling can be a valid option for certain families, too.

Our public education system could be better, I think. We don't do to well compared to other developed nations, but... isn't public eduction the primary source of schooling in those countries, too? I think the problem isn't that education is publicly funded, it's how the system is set up. And, of course, parenting and cultural attitudes play a factor in this, too. Some parents could be great home schoolers, other not so much. Some families can afford a private tutor, or private schooling, others not so much.

This is one of those things where I think we could look to Western Europe and parts of Asia to see what those countries do and how that my translate to our shores. I don't know if that makes me a socialist commie or not.
 
Why would getting the lowest possible score on "a a worthless indicator of how intelligent one is or how well educated they are" kill you?

:lol: At the time I took the test, I didn't realize just how worthless of a indicator it was. As life went on, learned that lesson. :cool:
 
Why would getting the lowest possible score on "a a worthless indicator of how intelligent one is or how well educated they are" kill you?

:lol: At the time I took the test, I didn't realize just how worthless of a indicator it was. As life went on, learned that lesson. :cool:

As life goes on, you realise there isn't anything that indicates intelligence.

Everyone is Stupid.
 
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Even in a home-schooled environment, if the kid's not motivated to learn then I don't think it'll make much of a difference. Public education isn't perfect, but is any human institution perfect? I think public ed does a decent but not great job overall. Private schools are a good alternative if you've got the money, and home schooling can be a valid option for certain families, too.

Our public education system could be better, I think. We don't do to well compared to other developed nations, but... isn't public eduction the primary source of schooling in those countries, too? I think the problem isn't that education is publicly funded, it's how the system is set up. And, of course, parenting and cultural attitudes play a factor in this, too. Some parents could be great home schoolers, other not so much. Some families can afford a private tutor, or private schooling, others not so much.

This is one of those things where I think we could look to Western Europe and parts of Asia to see what those countries do and how that my translate to our shores. I don't know if that makes me a socialist commie or not.

Again, and sadly, it all comes down to the allmighty dollar. I have a friend who homeschools their 5 kids, while hubby brings home the bacon.(and she does a fantastic job, the kids are very well balanced in their education/activities.) Does everyone have that option?

Now, let's move on to the inner city. What do we do with those kids? Put them all in private or charter schools? If so, who is going to teach them? The same teachers that taught in the public schools.

Private schools are successful because of parent involvement and smaller classroom size, and if some student acts up they can boot them out.

There will never be a perfect solution for the millions of children in America who need to be educated. But I love threads like these, and all the exchange of ideas in a civil manner!
 
As to "screw the poor parents"

that is already happening and has been so for a very long time. The wealthier parents have always had options regarding their child's education - the poor are often stuck with whatever school district they happen to live in.

That is why continued push for state school voucher programs can help level the playing field for middle and lower middle class families - allow them to shop private school opportunities, thus breaking the public school monopoly that currently exists, which in turn, will force those same public schools to compete and become better in the process. Win-win for everyone.

I have always found it ironic that some liberals proclaim how supportive they are of the concept of choice. It would appear that choice is simply limited to aborting children, not educating them...
 
Parents who care about education have children who care about their education. It's not really comparing apples to apples. It just saddens and frustrates me that some kids - yes POOR ones- don't have any choice. Homeschooling and private school are not an option for many. That's why I can't understand why anyone who claims to give a damn about poor kids or education would be opposed to vouchers. Befuddling to me.

Poor Vietnamese kid falls off the boat from Asia and 5 years later speaks perfect English, plays the violin, wins a spelling bee, and is doing calculus.

:eusa_whistle:

Why?

And THAT is the 100 million dollar question.

Poor asian kids come here and own companies within 15 years. Poor russian kids come here and some find ways to pay their own college tuition working 3 jobs. Some mexican immigrants come here and work so hard, they own 3 cars and a 4 bedroom house within 5 years and are even sending money back home to support other families.

See, what liberals can't grasp is this: All men are indeed created equal. A human brain doesn't operate based on income. It learns just like a rich brain. If a rich brain and poor brain both read the same 10 books and both brains take it serious, both will learn absent any medical handicaps.

Being poor is an obstacle in some ways, for sure, but not an excuse.

Everything in life has and always will come down to a simple though: What do you want and how bad do you want it.

If you want a kid that will leave you alone, stay out of the way of your social life, and find ways to entertain himself away from you and away from home, guess what- he will. And he'll find other role models.

If you want a disciplined kid that takes his education seriously, and you are willing to do the hard things to make that happen, you'll have one.

But education begins and ends with parents. And good parenting is non-partisan. It isn't exclusive to the rich, the poor, the urban, suburban or rural, race, sex, state, nationality. Nothing. It is purely an individual choice, the most noble of conservative values- good parenting.
 
As to "screw the poor parents"

that is already happening and has been so for a very long time. The wealthier parents have always had options regarding their child's education - the poor are often stuck with whatever school district they happen to live in.

That is why continued push for state school voucher programs can help level the playing field for middle and lower middle class families - allow them to shop private school opportunities, thus breaking the public school monopoly that currently exists, which in turn, will force those same public schools to compete and become better in the process. Win-win for everyone.

I have always found it ironic that some liberals proclaim how supportive they are of the concept of choice. It would appear that choice is simply limited to aborting children, not educating them...

It seems liberals would cherish the idea of school vouchers. Redistribution of education, helping the poor black kids, etc.

But then add teachers unions to the mix.

Ah, when all the chips are on the table, always count on liberals to choose in favor of the unions. Thats why SEIU can have angry mobs show up on the lawn of private citizen bankers threatening them and displaying near lynch mob mentality, and MSNBC ignores it.
 
As to "screw the poor parents"

that is already happening and has been so for a very long time. The wealthier parents have always had options regarding their child's education - the poor are often stuck with whatever school district they happen to live in.

That is why continued push for state school voucher programs can help level the playing field for middle and lower middle class families - allow them to shop private school opportunities, thus breaking the public school monopoly that currently exists, which in turn, will force those same public schools to compete and become better in the process. Win-win for everyone.

I have always found it ironic that some liberals proclaim how supportive they are of the concept of choice. It would appear that choice is simply limited to aborting children, not educating them...

You know, that was a good post until your last paragraph. Not all liberals are against school vouchers, and not all liberals are pro-abortion.

Now, back to your other points, yes, the more we (as a country) try to improve the education for our future, the better. All children can succeed if given the chance, not matter where they come from.
 
Dude is up to his eyeballs in non USMB stuff today, but took time to toss me the following blurb on education. So this is his thread as much as mine.

The thesis is that good parents are able to realign priorities and do what they have to do to get it done where their kids are concerned. And they generally do it better than what we are seeing from the government these days.

Education. As Kevin and Deanna Daum were spiraling toward bankruptcy in 2009, they decided they could live without their two cars, their two residences, and most niceties. But they insisted on keeping up tuition payments for their son, then a senior at a private high school. Many Americans seems to feel likewise. While data doesn't readily show how much families spend on schooling, many families say they've given up other things in order to protect their kids' education, whether it's private school or college, tutoring, enrichment programs or school-related activities. Private school enrollments fell by less than one percent from 2008 to 2010, and college enrollments have gone up over the last couple of years. That's partly because jobs are scarce, but also because Americans simply value education. "This is an investment that pays off very well," says Sandy Baum, an economist at the College Board. "People are willing to borrow for it and they know that it's shortsighted to forego it."
10 Things We Can't Live Without - Yahoo! Finance

All across the country we see parents making great personal sacrifices to pay for good schools or to homeschool their kids with very positive results being posted for their effort. Students who attend private school or who are homeschooled are far more likely to graduate highschool, are far more likely to post high ACT and SAT scores, and are far more likely to go on to higher learning than are public schooled kids. Further they are less likely to get involved in illegal activities, are less likely to have run ins with the law, and are usually very well adjusted socially.

Would this not suggest that we need to start backing the federal government out of most of education rather than pushing for more and more ‘investment’ of tax dollars and other government involvement?[.quote]

Will it?

How?

What I read suggests that engaged parents typically have children with better educational outcomes.

Yeah, I certainly believe that, too

But I don't really see how you arrive at your suggestion, given the quote you cite.

Can you take me though the logic of your arrived conclusion, so even I could understand it?

You might be totally right and I'm missing something obvious, or you may have just missed some of the steps you used to arrive at it.



Is it not possible that good parents can and will do a better job for their kids than will the government?

Sure it is.

Who would argue that point?

But how does defunding the DOE make parents better, exactly?

I don't see your connection.
 
As to "screw the poor parents"

that is already happening and has been so for a very long time. The wealthier parents have always had options regarding their child's education - the poor are often stuck with whatever school district they happen to live in.

That is why continued push for state school voucher programs can help level the playing field for middle and lower middle class families - allow them to shop private school opportunities, thus breaking the public school monopoly that currently exists, which in turn, will force those same public schools to compete and become better in the process. Win-win for everyone.

I have always found it ironic that some liberals proclaim how supportive they are of the concept of choice. It would appear that choice is simply limited to aborting children, not educating them...

It seems liberals would cherish the idea of school vouchers. Redistribution of education, helping the poor black kids, etc.

But then add teachers unions to the mix.

Ah, when all the chips are on the table, always count on liberals to choose in favor of the unions. Thats why SEIU can have angry mobs show up on the lawn of private citizen bankers threatening them and displaying near lynch mob mentality, and MSNBC ignores it.

But it's like EZ pointed out. If more kids move from public to private ed via a voucher program, then those public teachers will follow. And, I think, the private schools would take the best teachers from public ed by offering higher pay. So public ed would be left with mediocre and bad teachers with maybe just a few good ones left.

Private schools by and large provide better education because of a more skilled teaching staff (generalization, there are definitely good teachers in pub ed) and also have smaller class sizes.

That would change with a voucher program. It's a nice idea on the surface, but it's really just subsidized private education that would end up changing private ed into something similar to our public ed system we have now. Unintended consequences and all that.
 
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All children can succeed if given the chance, not matter where they come from.

:lol::lol:

I'm gonna go pull on my waders to walk around in your BS today.

The ol' "All Children Can Succeed" Chant?

No, let's face it, not all children can "succeed." We need to take a realistic approach. Offer free education until Grade 9. Then cut them loose to "succeed" on their own.
 
That would change with a voucher program. It's a nice idea on the surface, but it's really just subsidized private education that would end up changing private ed into something similar to our public ed system we have now. Unintended consequences and all that.

No.

Private schools, if they were endangered with what you are imagining, which is unlikely, would simply raise the price of tuition beyond the reach of voucher holders.
 

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